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Nationalism in Germany

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posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 06:17 AM
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originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: carport
Europe in general is being pushed by [powerful groups, whoever they are] to become more extremist. It all hearkens back to that freemason plan with the three world wars, east vs west in general, to make people so exhausted by war that they accept a one world government.

I am with you when it comes to a one world government - but there is no powerful group, at least not in Germany, who pushes to more extremism. The opposite is true, all powers push to non-extremism and obedience. THIS is, why all powers of the system are up on the fence against the citizen movements. And, as I said before, the citizen movements are decentral and not organized, it is rather grassroots than an organized uprise. There is no political or social group in favour of the protests, they are all against it (well, except for some tiny political right groups, but those follow and do not steer the protest).


originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: carport
So in this case, they scare people with sharia in order to push them towards fascism. The nazis did it too. They had the Red Scare with communism, and made people willing to accept the nazi doctrine.

This is not what happens in Germany, you have it upside down. In Germany, people are threatened with the rise of the Nazis, race hate and such and the whole system advocates and promotes the influx of even more foreigners.




posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 06:42 AM
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It's so easy to call them nazis and whatnot if you've never experienced or saw the consequences of mass immigration and particularly mass immigration from members of cultures and religions that directly oppose ours and are, quite frankly, hostile and at best just not contributing anything positive.

With the new load of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants Europe's resources are definitely being stretched. There's recently been a massive increase in (illegal) immigrants and governments are relying on artifices to somehow get these people a place to stay and manage the influx. Small villages throughout western Europe these days get completely outnumbered by immigrants because they have to put them somewhere and there's even talk about letting them sleep in tents because there'll probably be no more place for them to stay in the near future.

Europe's seen a massive decline of all kinds of things since the crisis fully hit. If we compare the state of many European countries today to 5-6 years ago it becomes obvious that we've lost so much. The situation for many of our sick, disabled and elderly is becoming increasingly desperate and social services are increasingly becoming more meagre while taxes continue to rise. Basically, the system is seriously becoming stretched to its limits and even though Germany is one of the countries that's doing a bit better than the rest, Europe doesn't need this problem in the slightest.

You basically want the people to be utter saints because no matter what you put them through and no matter what tension you place on their society, they must undergo it without protest or otherwise they're nazis and bad people? They've actually done that for many years for the most part but everywhere in Europe where there's been mass immigration, there're ever-increasing social and cultural tensions. Apparently the demonising of people starts to work less and less- great! Perhaps we then can finally start to honestly assess the issues.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 08:31 AM
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a reply to: Ridhya

Less than a third of the voting population voted for the nazi's, the nazi's highjacked the parliament by locking out of the opara house those who did not agree with them (the Reichstag had been burnt down) and proceeded to pass the enabling act giving hitler full power.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 11:13 AM
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I would be wary of any nationalist movement.

"populism' is how Hilter came to power.

It is also the reason for the rise of radical Islam.

Hell that is how America got 7 years of 'hope,and change'.

Cicero called it long ago.



"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared. The traitor is the carrier of the plague. You have unbarred the gates of Rome to him."


en.wikiquote.org...

Just remember where that rabbit hole goes.
edit on 16-12-2014 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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I am by far no nazi or racist, but I can understand the people.
A lot of us normal people, that even have a lot of foreign friends, are annoyed and upset that the politicians are ignoring a problem.
Germany is the b*tch of whole Europe, they take our tax money and force us to take more persons that are searching asylum than we can support or take.
We have a big problem with poverty, even though it might not look like it. When I was a child, a single person, father OR mother, could earn enough money to feed their family.... this is not possible anymore.
The taxes are rising, while the payment remains the same.

The other problem, a lot of young teenagers and children with a immigrant background.
Even though their parents might be integrated, a lot of young children are not. The system simply failed to catch them in a net of integration and left them alone.
We people are fed up with a government that is ignoring all the problems that are surfacing because of this issues.
The politicians are afraid to be called racist or nazi or to be put in a far right corner, only because of our past.
You can see where all this is slowly going.
Even people that are not racist, but love their country, are slowly tumbling into the right winged corner, because the middle is ignoring it.
History is repeating itself, but this time it is not only happening in Germany, it is happening all over Europe.
The ignorance of our politicians is breeding racism and xenophobia.
edit on 16-12-2014 by aLLeKs because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: aLLeKs



The ignorance of our politicians is breeding racism and xenophobia.


That would go against the personal responsibility always getting preached.

No one has any more right to live some where then the next guy, just cause you were born on this patch of dirt and another guy was born some where else gives you no right to say he/she doesn't belong some where.




The taxes are rising, while the payment remains the same.


And that is why raising the min wage is a big deal these days, but capitalism calls for the worker to deal with it while the company racks in all the cash while avoiding said taxes that are raising.
Which then shifts those dodged taxes back to the guy or gal that isn't getting paid enough in the first place.
But ya, that is the immigrants fault, totally.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
And that is why raising the min wage is a big deal these days, but capitalism calls for the worker to deal with it while the company racks in all the cash while avoiding said taxes that are raising.
Which then shifts those dodged taxes back to the guy or gal that isn't getting paid enough in the first place.
But ya, that is the immigrants fault, totally.

No, that is too simple. You see, in Germany, there are about 4 million unemployed, a good number without a good education, but some even with a good education, but with no chance of any emplyoment because they are too old, since employers are reluctant to employ people beyond 50 years of age. But, at the same time, the official line is "Germany needs immigrants to survive". So far, so good, one could think, if it is immigrants who are young and educated and could obtain jobs. The reality, though, is that most of the immigrants have no education and no chance for any decent job, they will get social welfare and most likely stay in it (see my other post, each person living in Germany is entitled for approximately 1000$, including full coverage of physician and hospitals and some extras more. So, instead of contributing to the social state, they are feeding on it.
There are no immigration rules to Germany, unlike in other countries. You would need no education, no money, you don't have to speak the language or know anything at all about Germany - all you need is to reach German soil and say "I apply for asylum", and from this moment on, you obtai social welfare as desribed above. Of course, if your application is turned down, you would need to leave the country, but you can, of course, contest the decision and run the court system and prlongue your stay for a couple of years. But even when you do not contest, chances are 90:10 that you can stay anyway, because the country, from where you came, does not allow you to come back, or is in a bad shape so that German authorities do not want you to go back, or, if you threw away your passport, they wouldn't know where to send you to. In effect, about 90% of all asylum seekers, granted or not, will remain in Germany and are paid for by the state. We are not talking about a handful of people here, but about hundreds of thousands. They need language courses (paid by the state), their children need to go to school and visit catch-up classes (paid by the state). There is a whole lot of problems that come with that as well, some other posters mention some of them (the money that is spent on asylum seekers is missing elsewhere).

So, in effect, it is NOT the immigrants CAUSING it, it is the policy of allowing anyone to stay in the country AND pay them - without consideration, without any immigration policy in place. Plus, and this is always forgotten, the immigrants come on top of the EU citizens who do not need residency to live in another EU country. All the "low wage" jobs are already handed out to those who came from the "poorer" EU countries, now come the immigrants, mostly from africa and near east - what jobs shall they work in? As a result, you have a rising criminality (no wonder, the people want to live better than receiving social welfare), a rising drug trade and prostitution, more thefts and so on. But, quite hinestly, one could arrange with that, not easily, but one could manage - but next year, there will be another 300,000 and estimations say that, alone in North Africa, about 2 million are waiting to ship to Europe. Not all of them come to Germany, but it will guarantee at least another 200, 300 or 400,000 to try to apply for asylum ... every year.
It is not only Germany having a problem, the same is true for France, for Belgium, for Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, UK, Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy. In all of these countries, people become uneasy about it and in all countries you will see smaller or bigger people movements or even nationalist political parties.

One of the core demands of the movement PEGIDA is, for example, to grant asylum to all who really need it, but those, who are refused asylum, shall leave the country and not being subsidized by the state.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
No one has any more right to live some where then the next guy, just cause you were born on this patch of dirt and another guy was born some where else gives you no right to say he/she doesn't belong some where.

You are absolutely right - but why do I then pay taxes for this patch of dirt? And why can I not not to the countries where they come from. Before I have finished saying "here I am and I have every right to live here, same as you", I am being expelled. And this is quite a bummer, because there are no many nice spots on this earth where I rather would live (and even work).

I love those nice words - but then it needs to be equal rights to anyone, as long as this is not a given, I will keep mine to myself. You know, I lived in a couple of countries in my life, and each and every one of them asked me to bring money, none offered it to me.

edit on 16-12-2014 by carport because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: carport

Then give them citizenship or work permits or how ever it works over there and tax them.
I agree, if I am paying taxes so should everyone one else.

Look defend these guys all you want but it's rather clear where they get their values from when they voice their opinion like they are in the article



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 03:35 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
I would be wary of any nationalist movement.

"populism' is how Hilter came to power.

It is also the reason for the rise of radical Islam.


The problem here - it is not a nationalist movement. Some nationalistic demands are just the focus points. As some other posters pointed out, this movement is, in reality, mostly anti-establishment, and it is carried by a wide range of people, from various political backgrounds, education, line of work and age.

I have tried, for many years, to find real Nazis in Germany (it was a lot easier in the US) - but all I came up with were political crackpots and some individuums who were barely being able to spell the word right. Real Nazis, in the sense of that they followed an ideology, I found none. And that is no wonder, the re-education that took place right after WW2 and that continues until today left no fertile ground for them whatsoever. ALL teachers will pick them up, ALL social workers and ALL policemen. Al signs of national socilaism are forbidden, hitler greeting is forbidden, even the letters "SS" or "NS" on car plates are forbidden, if anything is erdaicated, it is the nazi ideology. The few sad remainders, often fuled, propelled, by a nationalist person or group living the US, are the jokes of the streets. If you'd go and collect all national socialists in Germany, even those on the farthest borders of the ideology, maybe, MAYBE you can come up with 5-10,000 people, a pathetic small crowd.

Nationalism, on the other hand, is a different matter. But even there - you know, when you raise a german flag in Germany (unless in the soccer world games), people will stare at you and make bad, even very bad, remarks. If you say "I am proud to be German", you are right away marked as a "Nazi". So to say - nationalism is a bad thing in Germany, there have been even (left) political figures who said publicly that Germany need to flooded with people form other countries to eradicate German "culture/lifestyle/whatever".
Now look at what is currently happening before this background - and you will easily find additional reasons for people to take the streets. This all is brewing for a long time already, but could be dwarfed by the economic success of Germany. Now, when the money comes to an end, many and more people are unemployed, oder under-employed (meaning working poor), older people need social welfare when they retire, costs of health going up, and so on ..., now a lot of things that had been supressed bubble up, and a good amount of people is asking "what happened to all the taxes that I have paid, what happened to the country that I helped develop"?

Granted, the number of protesters is still very small in percentage to the whole population of Germany, albeit it is growing. If not something happens (economic desaster, EU split, etc.), it might even wither away, at least for some time, but it might as well, though, grow more and force the politicians to change their ways of policy (and yes, including the immigration, or better non-immigration policy).

But - we will see how things develop, since it is a rather unorganized movement with no steering, ideologic or financial force behind it, anyone's guess is as good as mine.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 04:17 PM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: carport

Then give them citizenship or work permits or how ever it works over there and tax them.
I agree, if I am paying taxes so should everyone one else.

Look defend these guys all you want but it's rather clear where they get their values from when they voice their opinion like they are in the article

How can you tax someone without work? How can you make someone a citizen when he has no place to live (because he has no money)? Again: Most of the immigrants are fully subsidized by the state - and will be for their whole life.


I do not know how well you know Germany, but let me assure you - there are almost no "low wage" jobs and no jobs without a proper education. What sense does it make to let people into the country when you know they hardly have a chance to earn their living (and if they do, they most probably won't get enough work time and earnings for retirement, so they will be in social welfare again then). How many people can a state sustain - and how long can a state decrease spendings for the citizens (who lived and worked there for their whole life) and give it to those who just arrive or idle in the country without economic perspective? Can you explain to the people why the streets are full of potholes, why the public swimming pools, or cultural places, have to close although they have to pay more and more taxes with the argument that there is no money left - while tens of thousands people from other countries arrive and are being supported by the state?
Germany, as a state, worked well because there were no "poor" people until a few years ago. There was work from which people could make a living, the streets were nice, the bulding, people could go to museums, libraries, parks and swimming pools almost everywhere and when someone was unlucky, he would get social welfare to get him back on his feet. Those who retired got almost 80% of the average earnings in their life and could live their last years without worries.
Today, all that is gone, except for the social welfare, which is paid to almost 10% of the population. When you retire, you will get now 45%, and many libraries and swimming pools are closed, parks not maintained, and many streets badly damaged (and I am not talking of a few or in only one region). At the same time, taxes go up, water, energy, everything that one cannot avoid (you can eat for less money, if you want, but not pay less taxes).

The "social peace" of Germany is becoming unsettled, and this is what is really worrysome, and it will turn against the poor, against the immigrants on one side and against the rich, the state and politics on the other side. Maybe it stays "civilized", maybe not, but do you understand why the press and the politicans try to keep the Jack in the box? If the Joe Citizen understands that this is not the bad "Nazis" that rise up, but their neighbours, ordinary citizens, then the state will burn (not literally, I hope). But their "rule" will end, and this is something they try to avoid at all costs. And when they do not address it and when they do not listen to the streets, THEN, and this is hardly avoideable, some unpleasant groups will rise and hijack the situation to their own interests. Then might as well come a ruling national party, or a police regime, or something along that line, rather the latter than the former.

I am, BTW, not defending anyone, I am not even engaged in such demonstrations - but I try to give some background information to UNDERSTAND why and what is happening. I do recommend anyone who is interested to go and explore oneself the hundreds of articles in german language about the matter, but do not rely on the press ... not now and not on this matter. Or visit a demonstration yourself, there is no danger at all in it - and read the next day about something completely different than you personally experienced, from this moment on, you will not give the press a lot of weight anymore.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: carport

Here is a good (english language) article of BBC about the asylum problem in Germany (only one minor error, the subsidy is not 130$ per person, but more than 500$ since 2014):

www.bbc.com...

also, on topic, this article:

www.gatestoneinstitute.org...

Please have a look there as well, the Guardian article, read alone, gives an outright wrong impression.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 04:52 PM
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a reply to: carport

I know not all of them are but its not like syria is a great place to be in right now.
People are really escaping violence or prosecution.

Tax them and lets move on, sure as heck beats standing around and complaining that they are there.
And to think that they are 'invading' your country is just ignorant



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 02:11 AM
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a reply to: carport
I didnt mean specifically in Germany, I meant that there is some sort of global powerful group, who goes by many names, promoting extremism, everywhere.

But you have to understand, pushing governments to the "politically correct" left of accepting immigrants to avoid racism, IS a form of extremism, just on the other side of the coin.

And then sometimes in psychological warfare, you take the side you dont want to win, and make them look bad. Im of the opinion that [the powers of the world] are promoting immigration, to make us hate them, to push us into an east-west war of hatred.


a reply to: Pitou
No, of course not all demonstrators are nazis, but many of them are. There are a lot of people who just genuinely are fed up with the taxpayer support of foreigners, and their poverty/crime/lack of language. Then there are a lot of people (like in Norway) who just want all dark people gone. Even if they have assimilated.

But a lot of the problem is the fault of the governments, not screening immigrants or forcing language lessons. It needs to be stricter and fewer immigrants per year. And they have to be forced to take language lessons.



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 02:57 AM
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originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: carport
I didnt mean specifically in Germany, I meant that there is some sort of global powerful group, who goes by many names, promoting extremism, everywhere.
But you have to understand, pushing governments to the "politically correct" left of accepting immigrants to avoid racism, IS a form of extremism, just on the other side of the coin.
And then sometimes in psychological warfare, you take the side you dont want to win, and make them look bad. Im of the opinion that [the powers of the world] are promoting immigration, to make us hate them, to push us into an east-west war of hatred.

May be so - or may be, there is a group who is interested to have a best mixed population to make all nations obsolent, equal rights, equal pay, equal thoughts ... which guarantees that the people are more busy with and about themselves than standing up to a (then supernational) government whom all of them serve?



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:13 AM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: carport

I know not all of them are but its not like syria is a great place to be in right now.
People are really escaping violence or prosecution.
Tax them and lets move on, sure as heck beats standing around and complaining that they are there.
And to think that they are 'invading' your country is just ignorant


You don't understand the problem. You cannot tax someone who has no money and no prospect to get a job. And, and this is the case here, you cannot tax someone whom who have to pay with YOUR money so that he can survive, to begin with.
It is also not the case that people are fleeing "somewhere", like to the nearest country who offers shelter - 75% of ALL immigrants to Europe come to just 4 countries, and most come to Germany.

And, to make it clear, many people (and me) are not talking about "invading", but about politics who let everyone into the country, no matter where they come from, no matter if they find or even can work AND pay the lifehood of each one of them.



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:19 AM
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These people should rally in front of the American, Brittish, French etc. embassy. You want to stop asylum seekers coming to your country? Then do something about the wars that are forcing these people to flee from their country in the first place. We cant bomb Iraq and Libya and fund uprisings and whatnot in Syria and than blame it all on asylum seekers comming to Europe because we destroyed their homes.



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:33 AM
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Lets not overemphasize the numbers.
We are talking about 60.000 refugees seeking shelter and asylum in Germany in the year 2014, most of them coming from real warzones like Afghanistan and Syria. That's 0.75% of the whole population of Germany and I don't see the threat that the german/western culture is in danger by these people.
The refugees are not the real problem here, it is the idleness of our political caste when it comes to the reforms of the social welfare, tax policies, asylum policies and last but not least the real crappy infrastructure in Western Germany.

I agree with you that there needs to be some changes done here, but I don't think that this will happen. When it comes to the real problems in Germany, the people are really reluctant to voice their protests.



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 03:35 AM
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a reply to: carport
That is very possible as well - distractions are and have always been used, to keep people occupied instead of thinking about societal problems.

Division of course is also used to pit us against each other rather than against those in power. But unity can also be used that way! You can also keep people illusioned in the greatness of anti-nationalism pro-globalism, which does seem like a noble cause... except that the people pushing it simply want power over the whole world!

I guess what im saying is, no matter what we do, the powers that be take advantage of it.



posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 04:04 AM
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a reply to: xuenchen

No, not at all. The mainstream media as well as all official institutions in Europe do nothing but attack these people and these sentiments whenever they get the chance. So how could they be sucking on the MSM's teet if their opinions are the complete opposite of what they preach?

This is merely Europeans rightly getting pissed off about the unsustainable mass immigration that we've got going on.

This is merely Europeans rightly getting pissed off about the deculturation that is going on.

This is merely Europeans rightly getting pissed off about society treating native people like second class citizens.

There's no putting this genie back in the bottle, because this genie is the truth and it will not be silenced anymore.
This movement will only grow, you can not stop an idea whose time has come.




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