It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Caliber Wars: What is the Truth?

page: 1
11
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 02:46 PM
link   
What is the best caliber in a handgun? Depending on who you ask it's anything from a 9mm to a .45ACP. Everyone has legitimate arguments for the caliber they choose to run. A lot of it breaks down to a simple myth...That's right MYTH, and today I will attempt to Deny Ignorance with respect to the myth of "Stopping Power":

Stopping power has no real measurement outside of anecdotal evidence. In reality, "stopping power" should be referred to as "shot placement power". There are many cases where a .45 ACP has failed to do its mythological job of "one pop stop" where relatively under powered cartridges like a .25 ACP has put a man down. Memes on the internet that make macho declarations like ".45 ACP, because shooting twice is silly" makes people believe that all you will need is one .45 ACP to stop any threat. If this is true, why does anyone carry more than 1 round?

The truth is that in a firefight you're going to miss. Even if you do hit the threat is likely to still be there and capable of fighting. Using .45 ACP ball ammunition or 9mm ball ammunition produces NO appreciable difference in wound channel according to forensic studies conducted by the FBI going back to the 1970s. That means that having a debate on caliber is essentially useless when it comes to handgun rounds. What we should be talking about is PROJECTILES.

The projectile used in a handgun load is what will make the difference between a handgun load that will cause effective damage, and a load that will create a small wound channel and not deliver enough damage to the target to stop it. Your standard ball ammunition is not going to be as effective as a JHP load. Over the last ten years there have been major advances in bullet technology that allows Jacketed Hollow Points to be more effectively used in self defense situations.

There are also companies like Hornady that have developed hollow point technologies that create consistent uniform expansion upon impact. That expansion and weight retention is necessary to gauge the effectiveness of stopping a threat from continuing to be a threat. But again, we are NOT talking about "stopping power". As with ball ammunition JHP and all of its variants are only as effective as the shooter. Again, shot placement is everything.

This article uses FBI testing data to conclude that 9mm ammunition is somehow better than any other ammunition. While many points are valid, it fails to make the most obvious lesson. Caliber is irrelevant to a firefight, while the projectiles and powderload to propel them seem to have more of an impact on the target.

It is MY conclusion that with the right technology a 9x19 projectile will consistently outperform a .45ACP ball round. In the same light, two comparable .45ACP and 9x19 projectiles will have noticeable differences in performance if the same technology is applied to both.

Bigger isn't always better. While there is a soft spot in my heart for .45ACP, I get better performance from my 9mm pistols than I do from 1911s. I can regain target acquisition faster, I can place rounds in the right place more consistently, and I have a higher capacity. I also use high quality self defense loads for my 9mm handgun.

BUT. I also use .22LR, .357 magnum, .38 spl, .380 ACP, .40S&W, and a whole host of other calibers. With enough practice I have become efficient with all of them. The difference in effectiveness, to me, is the right projectile with the level of practice you put in to ensure shot placement.

What is that difference? Target shooting vs. Combat shooting:



Here is a view of my targets:

Firearm- Smith & Wesson M&P9 Full size Duty Pistol.
Target Shooting Accuracy-
10 rounds-10 meters



Combat shooting Accuracy-
25 Rounds-15 meters



You can see the difference between the two methods of shooting simply by how the holes are spaced out. Caliber would have little effect here, and if you take into consideration the TYPE of projectile used the damage to a real threat would be catastrophic.

What is the moral of the story? Stop worrying about the caliber and worry about how you train. I don't care if you choose 9mm over .45ACP, or .22LR over .40S&W. What matters is the effectiveness of your self defense projectiles, and whether you can make them count.
edit on pSat, 13 Dec 2014 15:10:48 -0600201413America/Chicago2014-12-13T15:10:48-06:0031vx12 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 02:54 PM
link   
I'm a professional in the firearms industry, a competitive shooter, firearm instructor, and overall firearm expert/gun Yoda.

I approve this thread. Everything posted is undebatable.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:10 PM
link   
What are your thoughts on a Springfield XD 9mm with Hornady hollow points when it comes to home defense?

Provided someone is a good shot of course...


Also, for that type of pistol, would a very high-powered flashlight / laser combo be a good addition?

Great post... S&F!


~Namaste



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:12 PM
link   
With a shot like yours the threat wouldn't have a head left




From, as you said, anecdotal evidence...

I'd have thought a Magnum would be better for stopping a threat than a 9mm...

However you rightly mention capacity...

& in a dangerous confrontation, 17(?) attempts is always going to benefit more than 6.



Great thread, there should be a Guns forum for enthusiasts and people like myself who'd like to learn more.


S&F.
edit on 13-12-2014 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:15 PM
link   
a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

I'm not really a brand specific owner. XD line of firearms are awesome.

Critical Defense and Critical Duty loads are excellent projectiles for self defense.

Flashlights are always recommended ESPECIALLY for home defense. If you can't see what you're shooting at you may wind up causing a tragedy instead of defending your home.

Lasers are a great idea, but not necessarily for handguns I have found. IR lasers on M4s are excellent. But I have found that most laser assemblies do not like the recoil forces on a handgun and won't tolerate it for very long.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:16 PM
link   
For me and my handguns anything 9mm and up.

Quality self defense ammo (in my everyday carry I use Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain 9mm rounds) and training.

Shot placement does play a huge factor.

Then again I have seen people shot in the head with 9mm and .45ACP and not go down (bullet path tracked around the skull and did not penetrate in both cases).

Bullets do very weird things.

If I know I am going into a gun fight I want my rifle.

We all know the true purpose of a handgun is to "fight your way back to your rifle."

Carry on.


edit on 13-12-2014 by TorqueyThePig because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:19 PM
link   
Surely its always been quality of placement over just blasting anything and everything so a well trained person with a 9mm who hits the right spots will always beat a guy who uses a 45 acp round but to be honest would be lucky to hit a barn door with a blunderbuss at 5 yards, theres an old saying in that practice makes perfect so its better to practice so you don't need to have to sort of repeat fire as there may be innocent bystanders around and you don't want to get into all sorts of legal trouble for hitting them



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:20 PM
link   
a reply to: TorqueyThePig

If I know I'm getting into a fire fight it will be at 200 ft, I will be shooting down, and it will be with an M240H machine gun.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:26 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn

Hahaha for sure.

That being said having a pistol on your person when you are out and about is a comforting feeling!

Definitely better then nothing!

Glock 26 on me wherever I go.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:26 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn

The only rebuttal I would voice is that a .45 with a nice heavy hollow point will put a massive thud on target as compared to a 9mm counterpart. ESPECIALLY if we are talking SUBSONIC. In a suppressed situation there's no replacement for sheer lead.

Subsonic aside. Your not getting enough bang out of a .45 acp to compensate for the massive recoil and lower ammunition counts. The 10mm on the other hand... Now you got the .45 mass with a little extra zing.. Now we are talking about a big caliber hand gun.

While I agree that .45 acp isn't the boomer myth might have you believe but I can't agree that a 9mm will do anything that some of the bigger calibers will do.

The real comparison comes at 9mm vs .40. The .40 has much less recoil and higher mags compared to the .45 and once again, if you use the right loads, a good bit more thud then a 9mm

What it all comes down to is body frame size really. If your a monster that can rock a big bore with ease... Then by all means do so. Rock the Bren 10. Or a snub .44 mag. But if your not a freak of nature your much better off with a .40 and below. Find the gun you can put the most rounds on target while frantically firing as fast as you accurately can lol, that's your girl. For most that's gonna be 9mm, I know she's one of my favorite rounds.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:31 PM
link   
a reply to: mindseye1609

That's actually one of the points I made.




It is MY conclusion that with the right technology a 9x19 projectile will consistently outperform a .45ACP ball round. In the same light, two comparable .45ACP and 9x19 projectiles will have noticeable differences in performance if the same technology is applied to both.


As noted, there will be noticeable differences. But, forensic evidence suggests that these differences are minute.

It really comes down to shot placement over all. Even with good projectiles, regardless of caliber used, putting them where it counts quickly is what will make the difference in the end.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 03:37 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn

Add barrel length and distance to target to the mix.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:08 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn

as a civilian I would go with 9mm..

The Army is having other issues.. with just ball ammo.. I would want something with more kick..

At the same time I wouldn't be using a handgun unless we are talking hollow points.


It really matters more what exact type of ammo. And if there is kevlar involved.

Cops LOVE 9mm and for good reason. but my Army friends don't like it.

But falling back on the other fight... 5.56 Vs 7.62.... hehe I see there can be other sides to the argument.

When I look at ballistics gel I would pick 45...

With rounds going MUCH faster, I like smaller.

My personal handgun would be 9mm. I wouldn't be able to aim well enough on a short barrel with extra kick in short time spans.

I'm a rifleman anyway.

edit on 13-12-2014 by KnightLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:12 PM
link   
It's good to see a thread like this. I have found that actually getting people to believe it is another story!

Many, like myself, already accept it as myth. It's actually a really interesting social topic as well.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:39 PM
link   
a reply to: KnightLight

I'm currently in the army. Right now the debate isn't really about 9mm but about what 9mm platform to use. The M9 is not a favored weapon for many reasons.

The 5.56 vs 7.62x39 debate boils down to much the same as pistol calibers.

The fact is these projectiles aren't designed to stop they are designed to wound.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:44 PM
link   

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: KnightLight

I'm currently in the army. Right now the debate isn't really about 9mm but about what 9mm platform to use. The M9 is not a favored weapon for many reasons.

The 5.56 vs 7.62x39 debate boils down to much the same as pistol calibers.

The fact is these projectiles aren't designed to stop they are designed to wound.



that's why I compared the two.. I was in the Army.. The lower caliber rifle round was meant to wound.. And wound BAD.

BUT. if you are using your second Arm.. You don't want to wound at that point.

That's the only major difference I see, and only in that capacity. Otherwise I agree with your op.

In some Army circles the unstated point of having a side arm is if you are about to be overrun.. And.. yea.

5.56 is my favorite ammo.





Stay Safe man.
Are you 11 Bang Bang??
edit on 13-12-2014 by KnightLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:46 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn
obviosly,you've done some research,but it goes a bit beyond the statistics.You need to compare bullet weight,velocity,and surface area.A .22 has a slightly higher velocity than a .45,but half the surface area.But it will penetrate twice as far thru kevlar as a 45! so on paper,it will penetrate flesh twice as far,but with the smaller area,only damage half as much,or at least to some proportionate.In my opinion,an equal 9mm placement to a 45 placement,on the same person,will get the same result.I'd still rather be missed by a 45 than hit by a 22.



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 05:28 PM
link   
"Sstopping power" isn't a myth, but it entirely depends on how much of a projectiles kinetic energy you can transfer INTO the target.

I'd prefer to be hit with a .45 FMJ somewhere non-lethal, than to be hit with a hollowpoint .32 ANY DAY.

I guess if you're a good shot, a .22 is probably a decent self defense weapon since most people don't shrug off a hole in their skull or measure the diameter of said hole before determining their level of need for medical attention.

Kinetic energy is everything. Unless you're at the range, you should be using hollow-point ammo which generally is going to deliver 90%+ of it's energy into the target, so heavier+faster always equals more kinetic energy transferred into target.

For an accurate shooter, there's little difference between .32ACP and .50AE;

99% of humans aren't coming at you after any hollow-point shot to the torso.

But if ya absolutely, positively gots ta kill every member of a 12-man home-invasion squad: Mag-fed shotgun ALL DAY!


ETA: Used to carry PX4 full-size with two 21-round mags. Currently: .357 Hollowpoints always.
edit on 13-12-2014 by 8675309jenny because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 05:42 PM
link   

originally posted by: blkcwbyhat
a reply to: projectvxn
obviosly,you've done some research,but it goes a bit beyond the statistics.You need to compare bullet weight,velocity,and surface area.A .22 has a slightly higher velocity than a .45,but half the surface area.But it will penetrate twice as far thru kevlar as a 45! so on paper,it will penetrate flesh twice as far,but with the smaller area,only damage half as much,or at least to some proportionate.In my opinion,an equal 9mm placement to a 45 placement,on the same person,will get the same result.I'd still rather be missed by a 45 than hit by a 22.


Sorry to geek out on you here, but a .45 has over FOUR times the area of a .22

πR^2 = area of a circle radius of a .22 is .11, .11^2 = .0121 .45ACP radius = .225, .225^2=.0506



posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 05:59 PM
link   
a reply to: projectvxn

I have 45 and 9mm. ..both are right for me. Both have stopping and knockdown power. Good enough for me. *

*Both with hollow points[
edit on 07-31-2014 by mysterioustranger because: (no reason given)



new topics




 
11
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join