The Place of Origin

a reply to: Kantzveldt
When I heard the mythologies of the four twins with one rebel, I thought of XX/XY... which in itself goes to show that symbolism is not set, but interpretable.

On top of that, many cultures have said that life began in water, or water was the origin, earth rose out of the water, etc. Interestingly enough science agrees that life began in water. There are sooooo much more variety in lifeforms in the oceans than on land, and the creatures look otherworldly... thats just nature's beauty. Who knows if the mythology was originally a scientific theory?

Anyhow as you already mentioned the depictions of fish people were not actually depicting fish people... they are depictions of priests in ceremonial dress.

They dress so to honour myths, because they associate royal descent with divinity and the myth associates divinity with fish/waters.

It carries over in to every culture, claiming a divine descent, to justify rule. Christian rulers even did this, except claiming divine appointment by god, or being descended from biblical kings. In reality, there is no evidence of connection in either mesopotamian fish-gods or in biblical king descent. Its just a tool to justify kingship. Think about how Caesar claimed descent from Aeneas.

a reply to: Ridhya

The Dogon tradition of the twins intrigues me because there is a relatively high percentage of Vinca figurines that are of twinned figures, that carries through also into Indus valley figurines and the Tell Brak eye idols of later period, an anthropologist will explain this as obsession with Siamese twins, but there could be an underlying cultic premise.








The claims to Divine descent of Sumerian Kings did not involve the Apkallu at all, normally a physician Goddess such as Ninsumen would just pop off to the local seed shrine and implant the seed symbolized as a diamond/star in a womb Goddess, Ninsumen then by tradition was the mother of all the Kings of Uruk through medical procedure with no father claimed.

So if you have trouble believing in the fish people don't even go there with regards to Sumerian Kingship...


Annunaki born upon Earth

a reply to: Kantzveldt

How "sure" are we of the translation of Sumerian? I mean it's a loooong time ago and if you look at koine Greek from much more recently or Hebrew there is great discussion and gross error in the understanding of these languages. I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering how much is a proper understanding of the language. Our symbolic literacy has definitely lost much over the years in respects to what is actually meant by the texts also.

I know zilch about the subject. Comparing it to biblical literature which I know a little about.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Sorry, it only proves our sculptors came a longway.

As for the other thing, not all cultures sharing this planet are on the same stage of development, even today. What's so mystical and alien about one civilisation that's further advanced than the other, when they just started to look out for better statue building material than clay? Language and all this things develop in time too, most ancient languages have a very small vocabulary, like in latin, when one word, say rostrum, means the beak of a crow and at the same time the speakers podium on the forum. I could make you translations from bellum gallicum, that make it sound like a love story. Well in German, because English is not my first language. Just saying the sentence goes: Caesars ships landed on the Roman coast, when I translated it, Ceasar kissed a fleeing Roman. See what I am trying to say? No ancient aliens. Just a history of misunderstandings.

a reply to: Peeple

Sculpture has not come a long way at all since ancient times, they were entirely capable of representing a masked extra-terrestrial spanking a naughty fishy baby even 7,000 years ago...or maybe it just had wind.




a reply to: zardust

They seem to do a great job with translating Sumerian as far as i'm concerned and we should be grateful towards those that do.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

Sculpture has not come a long way at all since ancient times, they were entirely capable of representing a masked extra-terrestrial spanking a naughty fishy baby even 7,000 years ago...or maybe it just had wind.

Or a guy cooking fish. If Michelangelo would have created the sculpture we could see that. But sure the technique and the material didn't need improvment, we were at our peak when we used stone weapons and wore fur.

a reply to: Peeple

You see the problem with that is it's not a 'guy' but clearly Female, and also that is the culture that first presented the seated mother and child archetypal image, but anyway if that's what you want to see here's another one of 'a guy cooking a fish'...

originally posted by: alldaylong

originally posted by: robbystarbuck
a reply to: Kantzveldt



The nuclear bomb was produced by American, British and Canadian scientists.

No " Off World " beings where involved

And Australian, thankyou very much.
In fact Australian scientist Sir Mark Oliphant, took the British idea of a nuclear weapon to the USA to be developed, because the USA was less affected by the European War and more isolated, and had yet to know about the technology.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Well this fish is obviously a baby. I don't know what you're trying to say, or why you see what you want to see. All I am saying is: nice interpretation, but just as likely as the flying spaghetti monster.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
I just watched a documentary about twins the other day, they feel they have a connection beyond friendships or relationships. Like one soul in two bodies. When one dies the other feels that they have lost a piece of themself.

The host of this documentary went to Africa, to a different culture that worshipped twins, and they had a specific religious process dealing with one twin death, imparting its soul into a doll, and doing ritual with the doll. So she did it, alongside a little african boy who had lost his twin.

So its no wonder ancients were fascinated by them. Remember that in those superstitious times, identical people and 2 births at once would have been considered miraculous (or ominous, depending on culture).

And not limited to ancients. The nazis were obsessed with twins too, wanting to clone soldiers or something. Mengele himself moved to a city in south america because it had the highest instance of twins.

Anyway, as has been mentioned in this thread, most of the sculptures were sacrificial idols. They were meant to be broken and buried or cast into fire, sort of like how we throw coins into a well. The Egyptians had a similar practice, but they wrote their prayer onto the broken idol.

Im not sure how people can be so ridiculous to say that sculptures look like aliens. They look like people.

a reply to: Ridhya

The problem is looking at this from the opposite perspective is that people have an instinct to see other people represented in just about anything, for example the man in the moon, pop two dots on a ping pong ball they are seeing a face, a rock on Mars readily becomes a face, your first instinct on seeing the likes of the Vinca figurines is to think person, despite it being readily apparent they are all depicted wearing masks and you therefore don't have a clue as to their facial features, what is required is the self discipline to observe correctly and not just see what you expect to see, few have that.

The cult of the twin with regard to cloning and self replication would be interesting, like i said the Tell Brak eye idols are very often paired and of course there is symbolic reductionism involved in these images to the minimum cultic interests, though people will still see cute little people, but i think overall it can be demonstrated that the Dogon emphasis on the twin tradition was shared by other cultures.





a reply to: Peeple

I am saying you need to observe more carefully before passing opinion otherwise you just waste peoples time, after all you failed to even recognize the obvious gender of the subject.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
One thing people also forget is that most 'broken idols' werent made by artists, but made by average people, wanting their prayers answered. There is a common argument that things dont look like proper people, oversized eyes, etc but even today if you ask the average person to depict someone, it'll look terrible!

Not to mention the inherent symbolism of size, and of eyes, which are probably the most symbolic thing in the human psyche.

But again, even if they're depicting people wearing masks, well, they're still depicting people. Humans.

The twin worship in various places I think is akin to volcano worship, sun worship, deformities (spider-girl in India!). We often forget that people across time and space worship natural things which are bizarre, awe-inspiring, or simply helpful to survival.

a reply to: Kantzveldt


www.evawaseerst.be...

If you read the page above you'll notice that 25.000 years earlier than the Sumerians there were already human figures with animal traits. Not surprisingly if you take into account that our so called gods did the same as our geniuses can do at this very moment (but they are not doing it because of ethical and other problems ... read: The real powers don't let them doing it because they know where such experiments lead to).

a reply to: Ridhya

The Tell Brak eye idols are very well crafted, but they are symbolic representation not naturalistic, they would have been produced by specialists.

But there are far greater issues involved with regards to aesthetics as that was a principle aspect of the fish cult, it was not just a question of the beautiful mind of the sages but the refinement of physical beauty, extended into material craft goods, aspects that the later biblical scribes did pick up on in terms of their watchers tradition, so generally people are not seeing the wood for the trees when they attempt to understand the great artistic output of say Vinca culture.

So not only the Apkallu sage but also the mermaid fish Goddess was an important cultic aspect relating to the fish constellation, in Sumeria this was Nanse daughter of Enki that emerged from the waters off the Persian gulf at the culmination of the to rivers, as later Aphrodite was understood to emerge from the waters, the emergence of beauty, in Syria this was the cult of Atagartis.



The sensual curves perhaps of the amphibious mammal...we take so much for granted.


a reply to: zandra

It seems to have long been the case that people would imitate other creatures through the wearing of masks in order to create spiritual connectivity with what they represented, in that sense the wearing of fish apparel by the Sumerian priests was no different in that they were looking to make the strongest connection to the basis of their tradition.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Just wanted to add 2 cents regarding twins..and also figurines.



This is one of the figurines found in Malta. If you look closely one of the 'sisters' is holding a figurine of either herself or the person beside her.

The reason I posted this one, is because of the 'figurine holding a figurine'

IMO all carvings/sculptures from the past cannot be taken litterally.

Would anyone honeslty believe that she is holding another person that would fit into the palms of her hands?

Ofcourse not, I presume many think like I do and see that she is litterally holding a miniture figurine of herself/sister and possibly the same sculpter that made the figurine in the image, made that one she is holding.. Much like a painting etc.

My point is, why would it be so shrouded? If there were alien races that visited the earth and the ancients saw them and had enough time to interact with them, why isnt it everywhere?

Already from 'fiction' our modern society is riddled with 'Grey Alien' Art and that is just like I said so far fiction. (I am a believer still) So how can it be, if they actually came. that we can find no definate proof.

Seriously, in about one thousand years from now, people would be 100% Certain with all the Alien Data we have made up in the last hundred years would look like Grey Aliens Exsited.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

The Dogon tradition states that visitors came from Sirius ... which you seem to disagree with in favour of Fomalhaut.

With all due respect ... Why would they then have been given knowledge of the Sirius star system in such detail that it pre ceded our modern knowledge of that system.... I refer to Sirius B ... the white dwarf companion star of main sequence star Sirius A ... also they spoke of a planet ... Sirius C / Sorgum Female onto which souls were born ...

Though I believe visitors come and have come from many different systems ...

a reply to: artistpoet

There was as i mentioned seemingly the case of the anthropologists wishing to relate what the Dogon claimed for Sigu Tolo onto Sirius, which they actually named Danu Tolo, it was Griaule that informed the Dogon of Sirius B as they had no knowledge of it.

The biggest challenge to Griaule, however, came from anthropologist Walter Van Beek. He points out that Griaule and Dieterlen stand alone in their claims about the Dogon secret knowledge. No other anthropologist supports their opinions.

In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists. James and Thorpe understate the problem when they say “this is very worrying.” Griaule claimed that about 15 per cent of the Dogon tribe possessed this secret knowledge, but Van Beek could find no trace of it in the decade he spent with the Dogon.

Van Beek actually spoke to some of Griaule’s original informants; he noted that “though they do speak about sigu tolo [interpreted by Griaule as their name for Sirius itself], they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some, it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule.” Van Beek states that this creates a major problem for Griaule’s claims.

Although he was an anthropologist, Griaule was keenly interested in astronomy and had studied it in Paris. As James and Thorpe point out, he took star maps along with him on his field trips as a way of prompting his informants to divulge their knowledge of the stars. Griaule himself was aware of the discovery of Sirius B and in the 1920s – before he visited the Dogon – there were also unconfirmed sightings of Sirius C.

The Dogon were well aware of the brightest star in the sky but, as Van Beek learned, they do not call it sigu tolo, as Griaule claimed, but dana tolo. To quote James and Thorpe: “As for Sirius B, only Griaule’s informants had ever heard of it.”

Having association with the fish Nommo highly unlikely to have been Sirius.

Dogon shame

a reply to: Maltese5Rhino

That's a nice piece from Malta, the point i'm trying to make with the doubled headed figurines is that this is reflective of the Dogon tradition of two or four or eight being as one and visa versa, if we take another example from Tell Brak found on the main altar we see four cojoined as one, a nuclear family as it were, with symbolic inference.



There is certainly no absence of evidence, over a considerable region and many centuries the cult based on the clay figurine is the only apparent belief system, but they show no characteristics of Gods, in that they are all pretty much the same, appear in natural pose often with their children, without weapons or cultic regalia.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Thanks for your reply ...

I note that even the Dogon themselves disagree with which star is meant ... I guess if their oral tradition is at least 5,000 years old then the waters must get muddied ... Rather like religions can twist meanings over time ... Goodness knows that our British History is now distorted and suppressed ... what I am trying to say is after 5,000 years perhaps the Dogon history is distorted from the original and over layed with confusion

However we can not cast out all of Robert Temples original claims ... by which I mean their tradition perfectly describes the motion of Sirius B around Sirius A ... a 50 year cycle and also the exotic quality of Sirius B ... said to be of a special very heavy metal ... as are white dwarf stars.

If this knowledge is 5,000 years old then it must be archaic in it's description also ... The First Nations people described trains for example as "Iron Horses" ...

The Dogon described how originally Sirius and our Sun shared the same placenta ... which is easily translated into nebula as in a stellar nursery ... I have my own personal theory on this regarding the Orion Nebula / Orion's Sword but I will stay on point.

One thing for sure is we know very little for sure ... Science / Astronomy is forever changing it's collective mind as new data comes up ...

I find it difficult to accept that the Fish in many ancient cultures is Fomalhaut though in some cases it could be but in others I feel it represents the age of Pisces ... or something other ...

So I remain open minded but sceptical also regarding your thought provoking Thread

a reply to: artistpoet

I think that an important point is that in astrology the fish Piscis Austranis is the parent as it were of the Pisces constellation, that it is at a deeper level, why this should be important is that there was a great celestial axis conjectured whose base was at the Pegasus-Pisces locale, a great tree rising as it were from the well irrigated field and the pinnacle of which was Sirius.

The stairway to Sirius

Mysteries of Dilmun

This being a tree it will have roots beneath Pegasus, and those we can understand extend deep down into the watery constellations beneath of the Abzu, Aquarius and Piscis Austranis which thus represents the greatest depth, and so there is a relationship between this and Sirius, the star of the watery innundation, though they represent opposite polarities, one the highest and the other the deepest, that is the correct model.

So you see this was a case of reaching down to the greatest depth, to the source, and there is no other, to the Dogon it was as a seed.