Senate CIA Torture Report Released: "Mismanaged Dungeons"

originally posted by: truckdriver42
I know I would like a heads up when the next attack is coming down. Of course I live in the real world and I don't sit on a perch and say CIA is evil for getting information any way they could.

Getting information by any means possible leads to some very distasteful tactics. Would you support being microchipped so that you can be tracked and your metadata used to ensure you aren't committing crimes?

There's a better way to prevent attacks and it's called not inciting them in the first place.

How many do you think these programs inspired to violence?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Disgusting news.

I am ashamed to be an American today.

The above quote represents a federal crime from the CIA.

I was listening to a radio host today who is one of the right wingers. He said he knew the information from the CIA was a lie but it was his job to disseminate it to keep the morale of citizens up.

In right wing radio land, wrong is right, truth is lies, scientific facts are conspiracy, up is down, torture is legal and necessary, Iraq needs to be invaded although they posed no threat, etc ad infinitum.

As has been said, "reality has a liberal bias."

originally posted by: truckdriver42

Umm.. Ok, so your kid is flying on an air plane and it just got hijacked and is just about to slam into a building. However, that hijacking could have been prevented with a well placed rectal hydration and a few other torture techniques.. I am sure from your moral high ground, you would rather sacrifice your kid so that misguided terrorist can then move on to your neighbors kid. Whatever..

The premise is faulted. People watch too many spy thrillers.

Torture does a lot of things, but producing reliable intelligence is not one of them.

The interrogation program evolved from the SERE program. It is the reverse of intelligence gathering. SERE was about enduring torture....not best methods for intelligence gathering or getting people to talk.

They reverse engineered torture programs from Viet Nam and Korean wars...sidenote: that is why McCain broke with his party to support the release of this report.

There are two interrogation methodologies:
Torture: using physical suffering and abuse, fear and anxiety as a counter-resistance tool

and

Rapport-based interrogation: tailored to people’s cognitive styles and cultural beliefs

At best Torture produces unreliable intelligence, a product of EXTREME Stress, Anxiety...disordered thinking. Accuracy, honesty and clarity of thought are but dim shadows within your consciousness if they exist at all under such conditions.

Rapport-based interrogation takes longer to produce results, but is proven to produce much more highly reliable intelligence.

Rather than your fictional scenario of someone's son being on a Hijacked plane...Why not cite a real world example?

Torture Report Suggests Interrogation Supplied False Intelligence Used to Justify 2003 Invasion of Iraq
www.nationaljournal.com... 41209

How many lives did that intelligence derived from torture save?

Answer: It cost almost 5,000 Americans lives.

No fictional, hypothetical son on a hijacked plane required...

originally posted by: truckdriver42

originally posted by: Petros312

originally posted by: truckdriver42
I know I would like a heads up when the next attack is coming down. Of course I live in the real world and I don't sit on a perch and say CIA is evil for getting information any way they could.

Torture IS an evil act, to lie about doing it IS an unethical means to an end, and to employ evil in this manner makes Americans evil too.

I know there are plenty of Americans who can't help but rationalize, stay in denial, rely on cognitive dissonance reduction, etc., but in the final analysis two wrongs never make a right. This is karma.

Umm.. Ok, so your kid is flying on an air plane and it just got hijacked and is just about to slam into a building. However, that hijacking could have been prevented with a well placed rectal hydration and a few other torture techniques.. I am sure from your moral high ground, you would rather sacrifice your kid so that misguided terrorist can then move on to your neighbors kid. Whatever..

One mans torture is another mans life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Those that died on 9/11 were tortured by Muslims. Those the Muslims killed no longer have life, liberty and I suspect their families are far from happy. The "poor Muslims" in this report got less than what they deserved.

I know, you disagree. You are on that moral high ground sitting on that perch with the rest that hate America and all it stands for. Or to put it in your words, "I know there are plenty of Americans who can't help but rationalize, stay in denial, rely on cognitive dissonance reduction, etc.," but in the final analysis, face it.. They side with the terrorists and hate America for Americas sake...

No, you can't hold this view unless you are willing to give the same license to our opponents. No longer then do you get to call out human rights or freedom or lack of due process in other countries.

People who violate due process or torture people have ALWAYS used the exact same justifications you gave. ALWAYS.

Second, It's already illegal and we have signed agreements that we would not do so. Boom!

Third, research shows that torture rarely supplies legitimate or accurate information. hence it's not even effective.

Fourth, given we are invading their countries often and are seen as terrorists to them, they then under your view have the right to kidnap and torture americans without due process? Right? RIGHT?

It seems to me that conservatives don't really have a problem with beheadings either-- they're just mad that we're not doing it. Conservatives pretty much want to match whatever the worst atrocity is, and apply it to their own enemy. That is their definition of the higher ground.

Haha, I'm reminded how conservatives pretend to be religious and love Jesus. Riiiiiiiiiight. Jesus is a total p***y in their eyes. He HAS to be, right? There are literally no values Jesus supposedly had that in any way align with conservative values.

WOW, insanity! Like truly, truly, certifiable, insane. I mean that right there is the insanity. Pretending to love Jesus while also supporting torture of innocent people, false wars, hating so many people... There is not ONE idea that Jesus has that conservatives would be on board with. Not one.

And yet, they hold up their bibles.

Surprise, surprise, they support illegal torture! But only when Americans do it against others! It makes sense if you just shove a wire up your nose and jerk it around vigorously.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
unnecessary rectal feeding...

...I have been mentally prepared for many things in the report. Real world keeps injecting surprises.

originally posted by: truckdriver42
...One mans torture is another mans life, liberty and pursuit of happiness...

WTF? Are we to all become Machiavellians now because of 9/11 ?

That's the kind of right wing extremist rhetoric being posited by lovers of thug news media (aka Fox News), and it has the potential to turn the USA into the next Nazi Germany.

I am very worried about people like this voting in the next election.

a reply to: Petros312

We really are there again.

It's sad these detestable acts are being used for political leverage. Obama admin releases this under the guise of transparency though his administration is notably not transparent.

Additionally, as other members have stated, the entire report was not released. If anyone thinks we're getting the full story, think again.

Oh yeah.. anyone remember this?-


Ex-CIA officer sentenced for leaking names on agency use of torture

The fact that so many republicans and right wingers are supporting torture... F-ing horrible people. they're just so mad the truth got out.

Kind of like Hitler right? He did so much good for Germany! The real crime was in leaking the truth about the holocaust. We should not know, says the dumb as rocks conservative nazi.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
The fact that so many republicans and right wingers are supporting torture... F-ing horrible people. they're just so mad the truth got out.

Kind of like Hitler right? He did so much good for Germany! The real crime was in leaking the truth about the holocaust. We should not know, says the dumb as rocks conservative nazi.

Amen, Amen. It really let's you know what kind of person they are, when they support torture and sexual assault of prisoners. Or just as bad, when they deflect this and put their heads in the sand. We need to be brave and look at the hard truth, admit there were mistakes made and correct them now. We can't let this happen again...ever. We're Americans, not terrorists.

originally posted by: jimmyx
I don't know S.O....I think the white house and congress were well aware of what was going on, as opposed to what is said in their response to this information being revealed. this went on over many years, and there were plenty of official off-the-record-meetings between the alphabet agencies and our government institutions, that we (the public) are not privy to. I remain skeptical at the least.

I couldn't agree with THIS more. The CIA has been intimately tied to the White House immediately following the coup d'etat (JFKs death). The connections to the CIA that the following US presidents either had or have been reported to have:
1. George H. W. Bush - King of the CIA
2. George W. Bush - Crown Prince of the CIA
3. Bill Clinton - questionable that he worked for the CIA during his days in England
4. Barack Obama - questionable that his mother worked for the CIA in Indonesia and he later worked for the CIA

There is no doubt the top US officials knew about the CIA abuses, especially the King and the Crown Prince. But I don't doubt that Clinton and Obama also knew about it to some extent. Ideally they would compartmentalize the nefarious deeds to ensure plausible deniability.

But the orders to carry them out would have to come from somewhere. While I don't believe there will ever be documents proving knowledge of the deeds, there was no doubt tacit knowledge.

If these guys are predictable, then I guess expecting a false-flag event soon would be the logical induction one would add to real purpose of a release of this kind of document. But it seems the last few months have erected the Russian and ISIS props so well, it seems like they were always there, and all taken together it seems the stage is being set, and the next play's main characters are now in place.

Oh hey, guys, hold up-- this just in...

Dick Cheney says the torture report is "full of crap"".

So there it is. Our beloved truth bringer has spoken.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
It seems to me that conservatives don't really have a problem with beheadings either-- they're just mad that we're not doing it. Conservatives pretty much want to match whatever the worst atrocity is, and apply it to their own enemy. That is their definition of the higher ground.

Haha, I'm reminded how conservatives pretend to be religious and love Jesus. Riiiiiiiiiight. Jesus is a total p***y in their eyes. He HAS to be, right? There are literally no values Jesus supposedly had that in any way align with conservative values.

WOW, insanity! Like truly, truly, certifiable, insane. I mean that right there is the insanity. Pretending to love Jesus while also supporting torture of innocent people, false wars, hating so many people... There is not ONE idea that Jesus has that conservatives would be on board with. Not one.

And yet, they hold up their bibles.

Surprise, surprise, they support illegal torture! But only when Americans do it against others! It makes sense if you just shove a wire up your nose and jerk it around vigorously.

Is that right ?

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will continue the Bush administration’s practice of sending terrorism suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation, but pledges to closely monitor their treatment to ensure that they are not tortured, administration officials said Monday.

www.nytimes.com...

Surprise, Surprise selective outrage.

a reply to: neo96

Selective outrage? Like the way you keep attempting to remove Bush from the discussion?

Neo, it's a little obvious that your only role here is to bring up every other president except the one in charge at the time of this report.

Pathetic misdirection. Obama, Clinton, or Eisenhower! anyone but Bush!

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

No one can feed rectums like the CIA can.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
a reply to: neo96

Selective outrage? Like the way you keep attempting to remove Bush from the discussion?

Neo, it's a little obvious that your only role here is to bring up every other president except the one in charge at the time of this report.

Pathetic misdirection. Obama, Clinton, or Eisenhower! anyone but Bush!

The president at the time of this report is Obama who is going to continue doing it.

I can't wait for them evil conservatives to release their report on its torture program just in time for the 2016 elections.

a reply to: neo96

I welcome that report. People who care about this country and what it stands for welcome the truth. They're not selective party-bots that turn a blind eye to torture and try to blame Eisenhower for Bush's war crimes.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

This is straight up bull# is what I'm saying. I was there as an intelligence operative and the rectal feeding had NOTHING to do with interrogation. It was because they were forced to hunger strike, "Which we weren't even allowed to use as a term describing their hunger striking". Most of the time, since the only place their leadership couldn't see them was in the interrogation booths, they would give us intel in exchange for papa john's and McDonald's...

Jaden