Consciousness and Matter: A Bogus Distinction?

a reply to: AlephBet

We emerge from the spin of a toroidal vortex. Nothing can evolve apart from involution. The true cause of all change is the Spirit / Consciousness entering the spin to change what the medium / matrix is given. Volution is a womb for information.

Although what you write is appealing, I don't think there is anything terribly wrong with speaking of evolution in linear terms, as a historical and logical development of biology with environment. As a heuristic, it's useful. But of course, on a deeper and more holistic level, it could be seen to be something like what you just described.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I just try to take things easily. I try to resist the paranoic-impulse to split the world into 'good' and 'bad. My background is in psychoanalysis, and I think the Kleinean concept of 'splitting' or what today is more properly called 'dissociation', is basically true.

As someone who studies relaitionships and how the mind constructs meaning from relationships, I have come to the conclusion that each of us are tagged this way and that way by different selves. Self psychology posits separate "meaning modules" within the human mind (and brain). Each one of these modes are controlled by a slightly different basin of attraction. Therefore, a separate self, oriented in a different way to the world, exists side by side - in potential dissociation - from one another. This theory also helps explain the various breakdowns of the mind and how it always seems to involve a 'fracturing' into different basins of attraction. Dissociative identity disorder (multiple personality disorder) is the most severe expression of this basic human capacity. Trauma prevents integration between separate self states, thereby 'contracting' self's into split of basins of meaning. As meanings - or contexts - shift, so does the self.

Borderline personality disorder, eating disorders, developmental trauma and post traumatic stress disorders - OCD, etc, the whole gamut of mental issues represent entrainment of the mind to 'one' basin of attraction, with others split away (depression from happy states or normal mood oscillations) 2 basins (bi polar disorder), an obsessive thought, feeling action of intrapsychic attractions, as in OCD. The human mind can go wrong in so many ways, and it all has to do with the level of integration - or knowledge and understanding - between the different parts of ourselves. The deeper we know our selves, the more integrated - between one self state in knowledge of all the others, and the more kind, compassionate and understanding were able to be.

There was a time when i was a little obsessive in splitting the world into 'good' and 'bad'. For example, the whole idea of a super-powerful 'clique' ruling the world is an elaboration of a concept discussed by the first psychoanalysts, and today is a basic concept in cognitive science. It's called idealization. When we think about something, and we begin to believe, very whole-heartedly in the thing we believe in, there's always a dissociation that accompanies it. This is because, the raw reality is, there are parts of yourself that recognized and felt a different meaning. When you deny these parts (as happens most extremely in people with mood regulation disorders) you inflame one and dissociate the other. This is basically how fanaticism develops. When people cant embrace ambiguity and ignorance, when they can't tolerate the inherent conflicts that come in being human, they become singular minded; their unconscious knows just what to do with it.

I'm not saying this is what you're doing, but I personally dont care much; I understand how selves develop, I'm not completely sold on a monolithic and all-powerful guild bent on humanities destruction. Are there "elites" obsessed with occultism? Yes. Does that bother me? No. Why? Because occultism is a strange past-time. A little silly, if you ask me. Does it say something about them? Yes. The majority of them would be defined as clinically narcissistic; perfectly controlled by their 'reptilian' brain instincts. The part of our brain that engenders either 'want' or 'hate', named reptilian because it parallels the brain of reptiles (who do not have any social or emotional impulses; therefore, no limbic system built atop). These men are ill. I'm not impressed by them - and I do not particularly bother about speaking about them in any way that blandishes their narcissistic self-image, as 'makers' of the world.

I trust the world, because I trust, at least implicitly, that there is something wondrous, God, existing as a flow of intense mystery, so I do not think I should be focusing myself upon those things. I pay attention to the outside. The things that need to be done to create a better world. Create more compassionate people. Whether atheist, theist or deist, I don't particularly care, and I do not think it wise to foist my own views on other people; I think compassion and love exist deep enough within each of us to allow us the breathing room to think differently, but alike in empathy to tolerate and celebrate differences.

As to those elites, again, the other day I was watching an interview on CNN of Candy Crowley and George W. Bush. Bush was talking about his book, and I was amazed as I usually am, how he presents himself so much more lucidly now that he's no longer president. He talks about how he loves his father - as his recent book is described as a "love story", in W's own retelling of the life of his father. It was really touching, almost, at one level at least. I could see that he truly does love his father.

But then I widened my gaze to get a fuller picture. This guy, I know, is a total scumbag. I do not deny his potential to love La Familia, but he has an absurdly elitist, narcissistic man, and this explains how he justifies and rationalizes his actions. As the Bohemian Grove ceremony 'cremation of care' shows, the elites on the republican side, which is pretty much the side of business and government - the sacred marriage of self-righteous narcissists dedicated to self-aggrandization - do not give a #. They're hedonists. Pleasure lovers; guys who like to frolic around like ancient Dionysus. And what about the magic? What about it. Big deal. I'm sure the world is complicated enough to involve a sort of synchronistic, self-objectified structure - but I do not think that, even if it did exist, which I'm not even completely sure of (and I know quite a bit about this) I need to fret about it.

I believe we are evolving, and that whatever is driving this process, its working for the sake of increasing our self knowledge.

The atman is nothing other than another word for god. If someone doesnt want to believe in god or infinate counsiousness within everthing so what, a blind man may not see the sun, may not even care to want to see the sun, doesnt mean its not there, nor does it make the blind man incapable of feeling its warmth LOLZ. Reguardless our DNA has been programed to not see this great unity which science is now begining to take notice of in our modern age. According to the most modern science the brain is nothing more than a quantum computer working with the universe as a whole. However according to ancient science even the atoms are quantum computing, in fact the entire universe is a big quantum computer.



20 minute video could someone embed?

Quantum Consciousness, Quantum Mind STUART HAMEROFF
Stuart Hameroff goes through a wide array of quantum mind concepts including time travel, parallel universes and lots of other cool stuff.

www.youtube.com...

are you familiar with post-materialism? www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Astrocyte

a reply to: Astrocyte

I trust the world, because I trust, at least implicitly, that there is something wondrous, God, existing as a flow of intense mystery, so I do not think I should be focusing myself upon those things. I pay attention to the outside. The things that need to be done to create a better world. Create more compassionate people. Whether atheist, theist or deist, I don't particularly care, and I do not think it wise to foist my own views on other people; I think compassion and love exist deep enough within each of us to allow us the breathing room to think differently, but alike in empathy to tolerate and celebrate differences.

I read to the paragraph above, then paused. You have given great insight. Your cure is to look at he outside and attempt to fix people by creating more compassionate people. Where did the insight come from? Sight within. Where does this information come from? It is formed within. What is compassion? Pathos, or empathy and sympathy, putting the other person inside yourself.

I again return to involution before evolution. Until the truth is internalized, it cannot come out, or out of volution. It's a process to turn the soul toward truth and away from error. That process is happening all around you each day and is not the work of man, but the Spirits work to push man out of the whirlwind. If you sow the wind (consciousness), you reap the whirlwind so to speak. Sowing consciousness into matter is the process to refine the states of our mind by trials and fire. There are five of these baptisms (involutions) we can glean from most scriptures.

Earth (matter), Air (word / breath), Water (baptism into the river of life) and Fire (trials). Spirit is the prize. All four processes are occurring to us equally, regardless of our acceptance of it as design or happenstance. As Greek tragedy shows us, the hero often misses his own fatal flaw. The anagnorisis of the journey is the peripeteia of self-realization. There must be a turning point. This is not something that is forced on anyone, but found by them in each life lived. We can argue that this self-actualization fails to happen in many people, yet we know the answer. You must be born again. This truism can be demonstrated by many artifacts out of place, but we get all of these topics in one convenient location. Its claim is simply, "the knowledge of good and evil."

While you may dismiss my theistic nature for yet another false pretext, perhaps the evil is necessary for the good of your ultimate hope.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I believe we are evolving, and that whatever is driving this process, its working for the sake of increasing our self knowledge.

I agree. We are naked until clothed.

originally posted by: Aphorism


If the atman is able to observe what the body sees, then yes it would need another observer to observe what it is observing.

The body does not see - the body is seen!!

originally posted by: Astrocyte

Just earlier, I was thinking to myself: what happens following death?

The very same thing that happens before our birth but in the other direction. We travel to Earth to be born here. When we leave the body, we leave this Earth dimension. It's as simple as that. We aren't these human bodies.

And like it or not, duality is all there is. There is yes and no (and maybe), true and false, good and bad, right and wrong... forever.

Sorry if that seemed personal, "like it or not". Wasn't personal, it was in general.

Duality is just an illusion of time.

Only that which is infinate and eternal is said to be real that which perishes and fades is nothing more than an illusion of ego.

All that begins must end, that which is without begining has no end.

Infinate universes appear and dissapear every moment to those in them they experience time, to those not inthem there is no time nor did those universes ever really exist, for in a moments time they are gone again likened to a dream.

Only the singularity does not perish for it has always been and will always be ever one.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Duality is just an illusion of time.

Only that which is infinate and eternal is said to be real that which perishes and fades is nothing more than an illusion of ego.

All that begins must end, that which is without begining has no end.

Infinate universes appear and dissapear every moment to those in them they experience time, to those not inthem there is no time nor did those universes ever really exist, for in a moments time they are gone again likened to a dream.

Only the singularity does not perish for it has always been and will always be ever one.

Eternity is right now, not something that begins at some point in some future. Eternity is all there is. Eternity is right now, every past moment and every future moment. There is no point in space and time (including pre-existence) that isn't eternal. It's all eternal. The ultimate truth of life is exactly that; eternity.

Duality is no illusion. I'm not sure why some people like to push that false concept. People talk about "collapsing duality" and I swear to God, that is evil talking. Nobody in their right mind would say that there is no duality:

violence / peace
starved / gorged
young / old
hard / soft
last / first
rich / poor
heavy / light
wet / dry
large / small
dark / illuminate
true / false
good / bad
right / wrong

Life is never, not ever, going to be without duality.

Think of complementary pairs:

table & chair
toothpaste & toothbrush
peanut butter & jelly
pen & paper
husband & wife
doctor & patient
teacher & student
parent & child
seller & buyer

If you think somebody like Jeffery Dahmer doesn't example the difference between good and bad, right and wrong .. then I don't know what to tell people. Do you know who Jeffery Dahmer is, and what he did? Nobody would ever defend Jeffery Dahmer's life and his harrowing abominable crimes. Not even Jesus Christ.

originally posted by: bigmouth1999

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Duality is just an illusion of time.



Only that which is infinate and eternal is said to be real that which perishes and fades is nothing more than an illusion of ego.



All that begins must end, that which is without begining has no end.



Infinate universes appear and dissapear every moment to those in them they experience time, to those not inthem there is no time nor did those universes ever really exist, for in a moments time they are gone again likened to a dream.



Only the singularity does not perish for it has always been and will always be ever one.

Eternity is right now, not something that begins at some point in some future. Eternity is all there is. Eternity is right now, every past moment and every future moment. There is no point in space and time (including pre-existence) that isn't eternal. It's all eternal. The ultimate truth of life is exactly that; eternity.



Duality is no illusion. I'm not sure why some people like to push that false concept. People talk about "collapsing duality" and I swear to God, that is evil talking. Nobody in their right mind would say that there is no duality:



violence / peace

starved / gorged

young / old

hard / soft

last / first

rich / poor

heavy / light

wet / dry

large / small

dark / illuminate

true / false

good / bad

right / wrong



Life is never, not ever, going to be without duality.



Think of complementary pairs:



table & chair

toothpaste & toothbrush

peanut butter & jelly

pen & paper

husband & wife

doctor & patient

teacher & student

parent & child

seller & buyer



If you think somebody like Jeffery Dahmer doesn't example the difference between good and bad, right and wrong .. then I don't know what to tell people. Do you know who Jeffery Dahmer is, and what he did? Nobody would ever defend Jeffery Dahmer's life and his harrowing abominable crimes. Not even Jesus Christ.

What are you going on about? I will tell you simply only god/infinate counsiousness is real all other distinction is illusion. God/infinate counsiousness is eternal and in every particle which issued from the singularity. Thats pretty much it, illusion is division and it is a matter of perception. The double slit experiment tells you this. Not only are particles particles but they also behave as waves.

Dark energy and dark matter are within everything expanding it infinatly with the universe, physics calls this zero because they cannot calculate the infinate expansion, but it is a known unknown.

Within each particle is a micro black hole which goes to a white hole which is another Big Bang which is everything.

As to your preocupation with the guy who eats people I dont know where your going with that, I would reccomend everyone become a vegitarian. I have been one my whole life and I can tell you the eating of flesh isnt needed for humans.

Considering that the universe is a singularity I would say we are eating everything at all times so to say.

Michio Kaku UFO Parallel Universe

a reply to: bigmouth1999

Nobody in their right mind would say that there is no duality:

Are you in a mind (right mind or wrong mind)?
Beyond the mind there is no duality!!

The mind is just words like good versus bad, right versus wrong but without words what is there? Prior to wording lies the non conceptual reality.
Which brings to mind this:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

Only to materialists. There is evidence this is a simulation and a hologram. So being born is akin to logging onto a holographic computer. Soul is not a part of the computer program, its the user of the program and internet field universe.

a reply to: Astrocyte

I believe we are evolving, and that whatever is driving this process, its working for the sake of increasing our self knowledge.

All that is happening is the appearance of now is constantly changing. You are now. Let me be clear on this - there is no you and the now - there is just now and now is appearing different all the time.
So 'you' are not evolving - you are just seeing and hearing change.

a reply to: Astrocyte

consciousness is the reaction of matter and the culmination of molecular processes that becomes the whole package of your awakening much like the 3000 parts of a computer when put together make the machine you used to read this

In my opinion I would just say god is part of all matter, or the singularity known as the "BIG BANG" is happening in every particle self repeating infinatly in all matter.