If we are at War against Terror, Why Support Israel? GRAPHIC PICTURES WARNING

Originally posted by Justice Fighter
www.waveworldwide.com...

OK. So I understand that you are ticked off at Israel, and in love with the Palestinians. That's fine with me, as long as you have truly weighed up all the facts.

So, you want to boycott Israel? I'll be sorry to miss you, but if you are doing it - do it properly. Let me help you.

Only the first few lines of another person's work are required to begin a post citing copyrighted material. More than that is a warnable offense called big quoting on ATS. It's also required to place it inside quotes as I've done with your post to indicate work is being quoted, not plagiarized. That's another warnable offense. A link to the actual work is required as well. Or warnable. I'm not sure if the main page of waveworldwide was meant to be a scavenger hunt for the article's origin, but here's a direct link

I'm really not sure what type of rag-tag type of "anything goes" discussion board you call home (since you have such disdain for our board as evident in your previous posts), but we aspire and demand quality contributions not to mention integrity and civility of our members here. Though you've made it perfectly clear you believe all our members to be ignorant, they do know the community rules. Please educate yourself on them as well.

Originally posted by Justice Fighter

Relative to population, Israel is the largest immigrant absorbing nation on earth. These immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom or expression, economic opportunity, and quality of life.

only reason for that is because the palistians are starting to out number them in the ocupied area's so they need to ship more people in to base them in those area's to give them a reason to keep that land.

( since most occupied land are occupied by imported jews from 3rd world countries )

[edit on 12-12-2004 by bodrul]

Anyone who calls what the Isrealis are doing a massacre isn't thinking very much. Isreal is one of top military's in the world. They possibly have more advanced chemical weapons than America. If they had wanted to, all of the Palestinians would have been dead. No Muslim neighbor could have done a thing, they've proven time and time again to be too weak. Isreal only conducts military operations because the Palestinians keep blowing themselves up, killing Isreali civillians.

What choice does Isreali have but to respond? Please, I'd love to here one reasonably answer. Should they stand around watching their own people die?

You people whine about Isreal taking territory in wars the Muslims started. You talk about Isreali agression when they've been attacked several times by every nation in the region.

As for the claims that America one-sidedly supports Isreal, we give aid to both sides. We just gave a very large amount of aid to the Palestinians. We support the founding of a Palestinian state.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
As for the claims that America one-sidedly supports Isreal, we give aid to both sides. We just gave a very large amount of aid to the Palestinians. We support the founding of a Palestinian state.

Israel didn't exist until after World War II. They just came in there, expelled everyone living there, and called it Israel. (I know it existed thousands of year ago, but then would you support the Native Americans to join together and start killing Anglo-Americans?) So...there is going to be a problem here. If they want to kill all the Palestinians, go for it...and watch what happens. The stupid Arab governments might be too weak, but if you think there will be no decent retaliation, you severely underestimate.

As for the support of founding a Palestinian state, words mean nothing.

[edit on 12-12-2004 by cstyle226]

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Anyone who calls what the Isrealis are doing a massacre isn't thinking very much. Isreal is one of top military's in the world. They possibly have more advanced chemical weapons than America. If they had wanted to, all of the Palestinians would have been dead. No Muslim neighbor could have done a thing, they've proven time and time again to be too weak.

they have a fine army all good for killing women and children
and maybe the ocasional demolishing of homes.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Isreal only conducts military operations because the Palestinians keep blowing themselves up, killing Isreali civillians.

if i was a plalistain i wouldnt think twice in attacking
since the the Israelis seem to think its fine in blaming and attacking a large minority and destroying their homes.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

What choice does Isreali have but to respond? Please, I'd love to here one reasonably answer. Should they stand around watching their own people die?

rip down the fence they are buiding and construct it in their own backyard
remove the few thousend israelis they put in place of the milions of plaistians they kicked out so they can rebuild their homes they lost.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
As for the claims that America one-sidedly supports Isreal, we give aid to both sides. We just gave a very large amount of aid to the Palestinians. We support the founding of a Palestinian state.

over 2Bil in aid to israel for arms
200mil to palistains which is sometimes blocked

Originally posted by Justice Fighter
So, you can vilify and demonize the State of Israel. You can continue your silly boycott, if you wish. But I wish you would consider the consequences, and the truth.

If we are talking about considering consequences, then what do you say to North Korea starting up their Nuclear Processes again because of the sanctions imposed of delivering oil to them. After Bush suspended oil aid, they immediately started up again. And why in God's name did we go from giving the PA about $52 million A Year when Arafat was president, to $20 million a month after his death? We all know that Arafat had embezzled millions, if not billions of dollars, yet we are quick to up it to almost $200 million more a year. Seems to me like the Bush Admin is laying towards the Palestinian side.

More money flows to terrorist organizations from the US than anyone knows about.

Israel didn't exist until after World War II. They just came in there, expelled everyone living there, and called it Israel. (I know it existed thousands of year ago, but then would you support the Native Americans to join together and start killing Anglo-Americans?) So...there is going to be a problem here. If they want to kill all the Palestinians, go for it...and watch what happens. The stupid Arab governments might be too weak, but if you think there will be no decent retaliation, you severely underestimate.

Isreal has wiped the floor with the Arab states countless times in the past. The previous wars have been complete embarassments, and the distance in technology and numbers was greatly against Isreal during many of those wars. The situation is more in favor of Isreal today.

Either way, the jews didn't just come in and throw the Palestinians out. The land was given to them by the entire world. They never forced the Palestinians to leave, either. They had no problem living along side the muslims. The Palestinians never owned that land to begin with, either.

As for the support of founding a Palestinian state, words mean nothing.

We've proposed plans. We've been as fair as possible in the situation.

they have a fine army all good for killing women and children
and maybe the ocasional demolishing of homes.

And beating massive armies of Arabs, too...

if i was a plalistain i wouldnt think twice in attacking
since the the Israelis seem to think its fine in blaming and attacking a large minority and destroying their homes.

You don't seem to understand the difference between retaliation, and starting the fight, do you? You're also grossly exagerating the amount of force the Isrealis use.

rip down the fence they are buiding and construct it in their own backyard
remove the few thousend israelis they put in place of the milions of plaistians they kicked out so they can rebuild their homes they lost.

The fence they are building is to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out. They have every right to build it.

They have already made plans to withdraw from the Gaza, even though they really don't have to. Isreal has no real reason to make concessions at all. They are the stronger side. The fact that they are willing to do so shows moral superiority.

They only took that land to begin with because the Arab world continued to attack them.

over 2Bil in aid to israel for arms
200mil to palistains which is sometimes blocked

We aren't about to give any arms to the Palestinians because they'd use them to attack Isreal. Isreal needs weapons to not just prevent Palestinians from carrying out terror attacks, but also to keep their muslim neighbors in check.

Plus, giving aid to the Palestinians is far more difficult. Much of it gets stolen by their corrupt leaders, or is channeled to terrorist groups.

Finally here is a logical post that is not based on muslim propoganda.

Originally posted by cstyle226

Israel didn't exist until after World War II. They just came in there, expelled everyone living there, and called it Israel. (I know it existed thousands of year ago, but then would you support the Native Americans to join together and start killing Anglo-Americans?) So...there is going to be a problem here. If they want to kill all the Palestinians, go for it...and watch what happens. The stupid Arab governments might be too weak, but if you think there will be no decent retaliation, you severely underestimate.

As for the support of founding a Palestinian state, words mean nothing.

[edit on 12-12-2004 by cstyle226]

I am always curious when condemnation of Israel for taking Palastinian lands comes up there is hardly any mention made of Trans-Jordan and the other 3/4ths of the missing palastinian land.

Transjordan, the territory of the present Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, is historically and geographically a part of Palestine. It was the nearly empty three-quarters of the territory originally entrusted to Britain expressly for the Jewish restoration; the territory had, moreover, been liberated from the Turks with the help of Jewish forces. This widely forgotten fact and the existence instead of the Arab state of Jordan underlines the myth of the Palestine Arabs as a "deprived people!' driven out of their homeland. Whatever the Palestine Arabs may lack, it is not a homeland; whoever has been deprived, it is not the Arabs.

Why is there not an intifada against Jordan? seems with the event known as "Black September" there would be just cause and motivation. Also during this battle the Syrians who had opened a second front in Jordan turned tail and left the PLO in the lurch - why no outrage there?

According to conservative, minimum estimates, several hundred Palestinians died in the battles of September 1970; according to the maximum estimate, there were several thousand casualties. Their independent military might suffered a major blow. Those were the circumstances which gave the name "Black September" to the events of the bloody month.

Black September, PLO attempt to Take Over Jordan

Of course everyone knows that the PLO went on to Lebanon where it wreaked havoc on that country for decades.

The lack of action or condemnation at the other countries in the region holding the majority of traditional Palastinian lands leads me to think that this is a religious war rather than one of liberation directly due to the fact that no other country is taking any criticism or attacks from the Palastinians. Why is that if this is a war of territorial liberation?

Just curious, and would like an answer not a flame.


As far as the subject of this thread is concerned all I can say is that war is hell and in every conflict there are going to be innocents hurt, killed and tortured. This has gone on throughout history and example after example exist.

Does that make it right or Ok - no it doesn't

To profess Isreali culpability while ignoring the thousands of innocents killed by Palastinians just to paint one side as cruel is very biased and ignorant of the facts.

I don't think Iraeli's wake up in the morning with the intent of killing Palastinians - something makes them do this what do you suppose it is?

Either way, the jews didn't just come in and throw the Palestinians out. The land was given to them by the entire world. They never forced the Palestinians to leave, either. They had no problem living along side the muslims. The Palestinians never owned that land to begin with, either.

What history book did you read?

What history book did you read?

I guess an accurate one.

On Friday May 14, 1948 (the day in which the British Mandate over Palestine expired) the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel was signed by members of the National Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, representing the Jewish community in the country and the Zionist movement abroad. It went into effect at midnight, Tel Aviv time.

Source - www.palestinefacts.org...

Read about the legal status of Isreal after the fall of the Ottoman Empire:

www.palestinefacts.org...

The Isrealis weren't evil. They didn't force the Palestinians from the land. They aren't using excessive force today.

Originally posted by bobjohnson

Either way, the jews didn't just come in and throw the Palestinians out.

What history book did you read?

What history book did you miss as you skipped class? or is that you have recently attended history class where nothing but revisionism is forced upon you.


The Isreali's were ready for co-existence when they were attacked from all sides in the very begining.


SUI

[edit on 12-12-2004 by Phoenix]

Either way, the jews didn't just come in and throw the Palestinians out.

just take a look on

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel - 5 Iyar 5708 - 14.5.1948:

[...] We appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. [...]

The Arab population had been given an opportunity to stay in their homes and be a part of the new state. Approximately 160,000 Arabs had chosen to do so. They and their descendants are todays Arab Israelis.

Chanukka sameach,
Rebekka

I get what you are saying about Jordan but I dont think thats the issue.

The refugees were from what is now Israel

If the UN told you to leave your house and go and live in the other side of your state/country would you be like yes please

I dont think Israelis are evil, thats stupid mate

I probablly should not of put the history book line as it was rude.

Are you aware of the Stern Gang and Irgun and thier role in the creation of Israel.

I dismay that a people that have been through so much hardship and injustice in the last century will resort to collective punishment and targeted assasination.

I too hope now Arafat has gone there can be an agreement but we will see what the future brings....

Well I'm Back!

As for this subject, I know that you believe we should not support Israel because in some ways they are like that of Iraq, which we are at war with, but the bottom line is that we can not continue to start wars with random countries, and in this case, Israel, a country in which we have been positively affiliated with for years. As far as the Middle East, we have screwed ourselves over, by ever being a part of the Middle east whether in helping one country in a war, or defending a countries actions, we have left ourselves up for criticism and wars with countries lying in the Middle East and countries in the U.N. that have tried to stay out of issues in the Middle East, and have given us crap for ever becoming a part of it all. Sadly, we have gotten ourselves into the mess with the Palestine/Israel issues, and now we are stuck even deeper in Iraq. We've gone in, and there really is no way out, because who ever we leave behind or leave out will only become mad at us for "not finishing the job," and those of us who hated us for helping a country they are in feud with, will continue to hate us as well.

Originally posted by TrickmastertricK
More money flows to terrorist organizations from the US than anyone knows about.

this is a truism that bears consideration. at a certain weight of numbers, it is no longer a coincidence.
how could anybody sell arms if nobody was fighting? where there's a market, there's a vampiric cabal of bloodsuckers, twisting the juice of the 'cattle'.

If the UN told you to leave your house and go and live in the other side of your state/country would you be like yes please

No one ever told them to leave. They decided all on their own.

I probablly should not of put the history book line as it was rude.

And incorrect...

I dismay that a people that have been through so much hardship and injustice in the last century will resort to collective punishment and targeted assasination.

There is no collective punishment. For all of the left-wing talk, there have been few Palestinian civillian casualties as a result of what Isreal has done. And knocking off terrorist leaders is hardly a sign of cruelty.

"He gets what he deserves."

Spewage....plain outright anti-Israel spewage within this thread. I'm sure it won't be long before some reckless soul decides to bring into play the "10 times debunked" Protocols of the Learned Elders and 'world domination' too, eh?
Keep fueling the flames fella's...all in the name of "don't believe it, research it," k? Cause if the Israelis wanted to "slaughter" Muslims and create a "greater Israel" they would have already done so

Right...

When Islamic 'terrorists' kill an Israeli, it's an attrocitie and the world condemns them for thier actions, but when an Israeli kills an innocent and the world speaks out against it, it's anti-Islraeli ? When a Palestinian is killed by an Israeli, it's not even considered front page news, but when an Israeli is killed by a Palestinian, there's an international outcry.

Seeforof, Israel is creating a greater Israel; for someone who is asking others to do some research, it's very ignorant of you to ommite this very fact: They have been increasing thier borders since the Rogers plan, and even between the two worldwars; they continue to expand thier borders as we speak.

Now, on mention of veto, I seemed a bit dumbfounded as to why you pounced on those who touted them, and then provided no alternative yourself? Why did the U.S. Veto a resolution that would give Palestinians rights? Why did the UN 242 resolution deny Palestinians rights? Tell me Seekerof, there must have been a ligitimate reason, correct?

Let's take a look at all the Veto's:

Year -----The USA voted against each of the following resolutions:

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in
air raids.
1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw
from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.

1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied
Arab countries

Please, Seekerof, give me a good discourse as to why these Veto's were issued.

This is an illegal occupation, no matter how you look at it. And your tax dollars are funding this illegal occupation; your tax dollars helped kill an innocent Israeli...

Deep

[edit on 12-12-2004 by ZeroDeep]

When Islamic 'terrorists' kill an Israeli, it's an attrocitie and the world condemns them for thier actions, but when an Israeli kills an innocent and the world speaks out against it, it's anti-Islraeli ? When a Palestinian is killed by an Israeli, it's not even considered front page news, but when an Israeli is killed by a Palestinian, there's an international outcry.

Palestinians started the attacks. They target civillians, while Isrealis don't. The Isrealis have a right and obligation to protect their own people. The Palestinians have decided to hide among the civillians like cowards.

The international community is also more against Isreal then for it.

Seeforof, Israel is creating a greater Israel; for something who is asking others to do some research, it's very ignorant of you to ommite this very fact: They have been increasing thier borders since the Rogers plan, and even between the two worldwars. They continue to expand thier borders as we speak.

The only land grabs they ever made were after the Arab nations decided to attack them, and Isreal pushed them back.

Isreal is actually giving up land in the Gaza strip when they don't have to.

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.

It's probably because Syria and Lebanon started the war...

1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

It's conveniant to not mention why Isreal first occupied those territories, isn't it? They were attacked. They secured lands to help prevent it from happening.

Besides, the losing side in a war should make concessions, especially when they started it.

1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.

The Lebanese threatened the Isrealis.

1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.

Affirms their rights, while asking for the Isrealis to give up their own. They haven't persecuted anyone. If the Palestinians are sick of the way things are, tell them to act against those forcing Isrealis hand.

Most of these are just repetitive...