It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


New Proposed Etymology: "Israel"

page: 3
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in


posted on Dec, 9 2014 @ 02:45 PM
a reply to: Sahabi
Just like "We will create man in Our image" and later on "We will create Christ in man's image" when did we change?

posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 10:14 PM
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The first syllable in ישראל or "Israel" is made of three letters, ישר or JSR in Latin lettering. Depending on the vocalisation used it means 'straight' or 'upright' or 'smooth' or figuratively like in English to mean 'honest' or 'true' &c (Strong's H3474 and the next few entries). So Israel could be read to mean that Jacob 'corrected'-- or 'owned El' to use a modern expression.

Thank you! In my haste, I neglected to include this point in the op.

In addition, "Israel" (Yisra'el) may be understood as:

ישר (YSR): Cord, a straight and tight rope.

אל (El): Father God of the Levant.

"El is tied/bound."
"To tie/subdue/conquer El."

This correlation fits well with Genesis 32:28

“Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel (To tie/subdue/conquer El), because you have struggled against Elohim and against humans and have overcome.”

posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 01:14 AM

originally posted by: undo
yahweh/jehovah is h'ayah, who is ea, who is enki, but only some of the time. what i mean by that is, yahweh/jehovah is also enlil in the bible. en meant lord and lil meant of the air. so en-lil meant lord of the air. he shouldn't be given the title yahweh, as it is actually ea/enki, not enlil. the creator was ea. enlil was like a military commander. if you've ever seen the tv show "stargate sg-1", enlil was like a system lord.

I know what ya mean! Many events in the Bible mirror older tellings from Mesopotamia about both Enlil and Enki/Ea.

For example, as Elohim, Enlil favored the ignorance of mankind, while Enki/Ea mirrors the Snake of Eden by giving mankind various knowledge. Enlil was the deity that raised the Great Flood, while Enki/Ea was the deity that suggested the building of a ship/boat/arc. In Genesis 11, Enlil was the deity that disliked the progress of mankind, while Enki/Ea was the deity that confused the languages at Babel (Genesis 11:7 "Let us go down").


The cosmology and mythology of Mesopotamian creation becomes extremely interesting when compared to Genesis 1:1-10

Enlil (El/Elohim) gave birth to the moon, who gave birth to the sun. In Genesis 1:3 when Elohim said, "Let there be light," this implies that darkness preceded light,... just as Enlil first birthed Moon (Nanna), who later birthed Sun (Utu).

In Genesis 1:6, Elohim separated the waters. This is paralleled to when Enki/Ea separated Abzu (fresh water) from his wife Tiamat (salt water) by imprisonment.

In Genesis 1:7, Elohim first separated the water under the vault. This is paralleled to when Enki/Ea imprisoned the waters of Abzu underneath the city of Eridu.

In Genesis 1:8-10, we see that Elohim separates the waters to create the land and the sky. This is paralleled to when Enlil slays Tiamat, divides her body, and uses the vault of her chest to create the heavens and the earth.


Genesis 1:2;
"Now the earth was formless and empty (tohu wa bohu), darkness was over the surface of the deep (tehom), and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

This event corresponds to three Mesopotamian deities:
Abzu as ("Tohu wa Bohu")
Tiamat as ("Tehom")
• Enki/Ea as "Spirit of God"

The "abzu" was the primordial deep fresh water, and the place where Enki/Ea dwelled before the creation. Abzu was the consort of Tiamat. Tiamat was the primordial deep ocean, and the mother womb of creation. Together, Abzu and Tiamat filled the cosmic abyss with their primordial waters. Tohu wa bohu + Tehom

"When above the heavens did not yet exist nor the earth below, Apsu the freshwater ocean was there, the first, the begetter, and Tiamat, the saltwater sea, she who bore them all; they were still mixing their waters, and no pasture land had yet been formed, nor even a reed marsh."

posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:00 AM
a reply to: TheJourney

..... those who worshiped YHWH and those who worshiped Elohim. But, what has never been made clear to me, is what is the significance? What is the difference between the two? And where is the evidence in the bible that these two god-names were seen as fundamentally different?

The significance is to expose the polytheistic foundations of Abrahamic monotheism.

The difference between the two is that El/Elohim is the "Father of the Gods", while YHWH is a "Son of El".

Many Biblical verses clearly portray El and Yahweh as two separate personalities. In this post, check out Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Psalm 82:1-8, Psalm 29:1, and Psalm 89:6. In this post, check out Numbers 24:16 and Genesis 49:25


So I ask, if one were to read the bible with this idea in mind, would you find that when the term YHWH is used, it clearly has a different meaning than elohim?

The verses I provided above show El/Elohim and YHWH to be different entities. Additionally, a comparative-religious analysis of various belief systems, such as Canaanite, Greco-Roman, and Mesopotamian aids in this effort. We find older deities and myths that parallel and mirror events in the Old Testament. Using these older myths, we can see that events attributed to a singular God of the Bible are actually retellings of events that are attributed to different and separate deities of older times.


in the bible itself the names are inter-changeable

This is because the Bible has had much time to assimilate and coalesce the separate deities into one. As Canaanite polytheism gave way to YHWH monotheism, the effort to white-wash polytheism began. Today, the Bible is seen through the eyes of monotheism, whereas, it originated from polytheism.


Now, you may find a few verses in which you can analyze it as saying the two names are separate, as you seem to have done. However, in a general reading of the bible, I'm not sure you could consistently see the two names as signifying anything really different.

Separating the different names/titles of "God" in the Old Testament can not be done consistently, because of the centuries-old effort to mold polytheism into monotheism.

On the other hand, if "God" of the Old Testament were one god, then we would NEVER find even a hint or trace of polytheism. But several times over, we see these "separate names/titles of God" interacting with one another as separate entities, along with the sentence structures being suited for a plurality of characters. If "God" were talking to Himself, the sentences would be structured as such, but instead, we see sentences perfectly suited for separate, different, and multiple characters.

edit on 12/11/14 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 05:40 AM
a reply to: TheJourney

As we read in the Bible, Moses was the first to know the name YHWH. When we read inclusions of "YHWH" in instances prior to Moses, such as Abraham's experiences, can we conclude that this is evidence of the "cartouche erasure" of El's name for the re-writing of Yahweh's name?

Other than concluding a polytheistic pantheon, how else may we understand the fact that in a single verse (Deuteronomy 32:8-9), the Bible says Elyon gave YHWH, son of El, the people of Israel as an inheritance? 3 separate gods? 3 separate gods that directly correspond to Canaanite beliefs?

posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 11:44 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

Well, apart from the rope part. Straighten, leveling or smoothing. Or are you insinuating that Jacob/Israel hanged the Malak ha-Elohim? Performing a hanging couldn't really be understood as a corrective measure, since it is a terminal measure, execution, like stoning or for that matter crucifixion, burning at the stake-- or execution by toxins or the electric chair.

Lashing is correctional or in the case of Jacob/Israel, wrestling down-- is correctional or relating to ישר, while hanging is terminal as opposed to ישר.

Your dark rhetorics should at least be ישר the adjective of ISR, meaning upright, fair or honest.

Bad serpent!
edit on 11-12-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Honest + adj part + specifying correctional

posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 11:28 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

The positions of the El, take Mike for example, are general noted as subordinate and officiatory. Worship is never received by them...see Samson's mother and fathers, Daniel, angel coming down and talking with whole nation as mediator of the law/covenant ect per burning bush directive.

Its clear in the narrative that these subordinates were in a mediator capacity. Yahweh gets very talkative at the bush and even explains this mediator relationship to Moses to a good degree.

posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 11:32 AM

originally posted by: Frandawg143
a reply to: Sahabi
Just like "We will create man in Our image" and later on "We will create Christ in man's image" when did we change?

No contradiction or change here.

posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:15 PM
No one was hung. Figuratively, when we say someone is "bound," it means that they are "subdued".

Bad serpent? What's that supposed to mean?

posted on Dec, 13 2014 @ 04:31 PM
a reply to: Sahabi

Jacob wrestled the Malak ha-Elohim, he didn't bind him, he tossed him to the ground. Just like the bad serpent. Get it?

posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 06:30 PM
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Genesis 32:28 says that Jacob (וַתּוּכָֽל) (יָכֹל) overcame/overpowered/prevailed against "Elohim".

(28) “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God (Elohim) and with humans and have overcome (וַתּוּכָֽל).”

I take this as a completely figurative event. A mere man, Jacob, being able to overpower, overcome, and prevail over Elohim? No way.

Elohim needing to dislocate Jacob's hip just to maintain the struggle/wrestle? No way.

Elohim needing to sing the "Bohemian Rhapsody" in Genesis 32:26? "Easy come easy go, will you let me go? بسم الله no we will not let you go. Let me go! " No way.

Elohim created the earth but was defeated by Jacob? No way.

Purely figurative event.


ישר (YSR): Cord, a straight and tight rope.

This meaning has a greater commonality with (יָכֹל), than "straight," "upright," or "smooth." The entire event is talking about overpowering, subduing, and prevailing. When a person is "bound," figuratively, it means to subdue, overpower, and prevail.

How can a man defeat a god? By discontinuing worship. This is what I believe is clearly represented in the Old Testament; a falling away from El/Elohim in favor of Yahweh.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 05:16 PM
a reply to: Sahabi

I'm failing to see this definition. What lexicon are you using for the noun ישר with the given semantics or lexical definition. None of my Hebrew lexicons gives this definition of "straight rope". As noun masculine Aramaic Yosher is given by Strong as equity, meet, right, uprightness. From yashar (Hebr); the right -- equity, meet, right, upright(-ness). It is translated into correctly (1), honest (1), integrity (1), justly due (1), right (1), upright (1), uprightness (8), what is justly due (1) in the NASP version.

BDB gives the following:

י֫שֶׁר noun masculinePsalm 25:21 straightness, uprightness; — ישֶׁר Proverbs 2:13 11t.; suffix יָשְׁרוֺ Job 33:23; Proverbs 14:2; —
1 straightness, evenness, of paths (with moral implication) Proverbs 2:13; Proverbs 4:11.

2 rightness, uprightness Proverbs 17:26; תֹּם וָישֶׁר Psalm 25:21; of words, spoken Job 6:25, written Ecclesiastes 12:10; of the moral walk בישׁר(וׅ 1 Kings 9:4; Proverbs 14:2; ישֶׁרלִֿבִּי Job 33:3; ישׁר לבב Deuteronomy 9:5; Psalm 119:7; 1 Chronicles 29:17: — on Psalm 111:8 see יָשָׁר

4. 3. what is due, right Job 33:23; Proverbs 11:24.

See H3477:
See H3476:
See H3474:

As far as I can see, nowhere is ישר used to describe a rope. Ropes are straight when you hang or pull something or someone with it. Where do you have Rope from? There's no rope involved, man? Atleast from what I can see here.

posted on Dec, 17 2014 @ 06:20 PM
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The information was found in Jeff A. Benner's "The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible", on pages 286-287.

posted on Dec, 18 2014 @ 04:10 AM
a reply to: Sahabi

Ah, hehe. מיתרים is the word referred to here which means cords. Strong's H4339 "Meshar" means Uprightness and H4340 which is "Metharim" Ropes or strings. It would be easier if you had posted the whole section here, and perhaps even in the beginning of your book there is a list of abbreviations, that would come in as a bonus. This here just says that ropes or strings מיתרים "Metharim", just as many other things-- can be ישר "Yasher" or straight. But I agree, you could easilly get the idea that ישר has a definition "rope" or "cord" from reading the text you have scanned here.
edit on 18-12-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: ...

ETA: After opening your link, I found out a bit more. Apparently the word he translates into tie or rope or cord here is שר Or SAR. This is a weird lexicon. I'll have to check this one out a bit.

ETA2: Having looked over your lexicon briefly, he works with the ancient Hebrew root formation, and he has "reconstructed" many of these words and syllables. He also insists on using a form of "ancient Hebrew script" (they obviously used felt markers 2000 BC) which is basically grabbed from a list of developing Hebrew scripts that has seen some viral distribution among biblethumpers up through the years.

Anyway, we are talking of "reconstructed" two-letter "parent roots" words forming all kinds of "child roots" of three or more consonants. I am unable to discern if this is all just some weird guy who has published his own weird research as a Hebrew lexicon on the net, or whether it is somehow sensible. But an interesting book, though very odd indeed.
edit on 18-12-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: ... eta eta2

posted on Dec, 20 2014 @ 09:29 PM
One Creator and 2 princes. Each prince has their hosts. No one knows the Creators name. If they did they wouldn't tell you. The Lord of LIGHT and the Prince of Darkness were there in the beginning. The Creator created beings from above (Light) and below (Dark) from them. Israel is not the name of YAHqob's progeny. If it were they wouldn't be sacrificing innocent animals to purge their sins. Wouldn't that be a little insane in a rational world. Look at the Provision for food on the first page of the Bible not to mention Adam was told he would eat bread all the days of his life. Abraham, YAHqob and his sons were bread eaters not flesh eaters. The Egyptians considered their eating habits an abomination. When they left Egypt they ate bread for 49 years not little defenseless quail let alone their precious cows, sheep and goats. YHWH, the lord of LIGHT never told his children to sacrifice anything but merciful prayers. Eating flesh and blood is the very Biblical meaning of eating foods offered to idols and when you eat them you table with the Prince of DARKNESS.

Respectfully, the NAME you are looking for is YAHshurun like in the book of YAHshur. I would also like to point out that name was given to YAHsef to pass down. They were taken out and put away as a harlot later so where the Jews. The EssiYAH said that YAHqob's namesake would be those that kept the new LAW given on the Mount of Transfiguration which was taken out of the Bible because it wasn't good for business for the false church of commerce. In fact it caused a schism.
a reply to: Sahabi

posted on Dec, 21 2014 @ 04:49 AM
a reply to: TheoFieldsGardener

God's two first children were Shamayim and Eretz. The word translated created here is "Bara" which is only found as a verb when God is the subject, but you see the same root in proper names like Hosea Bar David for instance. So perhaps Heaven and Earth were two people? Two primordial orders of gods to help God with his handiwork, terraforming the planets and level their orbits and such perhaps? Shamayim "Jimmi" bar Elohim, king of space & his brother Eretz bar Elohim, lord of the Earth. Ozzy Osbourne is the Prince of Darkness btw.
edit on 21-12-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: lord

posted on Dec, 22 2014 @ 08:19 PM
Funny, I mean Ozzy not very intimidating. GOD called forth 2 beings Archas from below and Adoil from above. He described them as coming undone. His Angels didn't know his creation secrets because they were not around yet. But these 2 were.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

posted on Dec, 22 2014 @ 09:41 PM
nvm...wish we could just delete posts...
edit on 22-12-2014 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 22 2014 @ 10:11 PM
You could take it up with your Creator if you like. I'm just the messenger.

Chapter 25. God relates to Enoch, how out of the very deepest parts came forth the visible and invisible

1 I commanded in the very lowest parts, that visible things should come down from invisible, and Adoil (7)
came down very great, and I beheld him, and lo! He had a belly of great light.
(7) Adoil. Or, "Light of creation."
2 And I said to him: Become undone, Adoil, and let the visible come out of you.
3 And he came undone, and a great light came out. And I was in the midst of the great light, and as there is
born light from light, there came forth a great age, and showed all creation, which I had thought to create.
4 And I saw that it was good.
5 And I placed for myself a throne, and took my seat on it, and said to the light: Go thence up higher and fix
yourself high above the throne, and be a foundation to the highest things.
6 And above the light there is nothing else, and then I bent up and looked up from my throne.

Chapter 26. God summons from the very deepest a second time that Archas, heavy and very red should come forth

1 And I summoned the very lowest a second time, and said: Let Archas (8) come forth hard, and he came
forth hard from the invisible.
(8) Archas. Or, "Spirit of creation."
2 And Archas came forth, hard, heavy, and very red.
3 And I said: Be opened, Archas, and let there be born from you, and he came undone, an age came forth,
very great and very dark, bearing the creation of all lower things, and I saw that it was good and said to him:
4 Go thence down below, and make yourself firm, and be a foundation for the lower things, and it happened
and he went down and fixed himself, and became the foundation for the lower things, and below the darkness
there is nothing else.

a reply to: TheJourney

posted on Dec, 22 2014 @ 11:00 PM
a reply to: TheJourney

Think the difference in names represents the view of God from a specific state of enlightenment. When we become more enlightened we can realize the higher states of God (like hinduism and their many faces of the one creator). The book of Zohar explains it in great antagonising detail.

<< 1  2    4 >>

log in