Chemtrail pushers/believers: you should be ashamed of yourselves

a reply to: McChillin

The wierd thing is, nobody is arguing or denying the facts you just posted. Your links go a long way to help someone grasp what cloud seeding is all about. So long as they don't completely miss the point and think they relate to chemtrails instead.

Oh no, you not one of those "everything is a chemtrail" mob are you?

originally posted by: McChillin
a reply to: fleabitWhat proof? Contrail pushers have no proof. In fact, to say you can prove chemtrails don't exist, is an insult to my intelligence. For a cloud to persistently linger, there has to be a chemical reaction happening and something which made that chemical reaction happen, otherwise, normal contrails would constantly persist and linger. Again, you can't have it both ways. And please, don't say anything about the temperature at 30,000 feet. It never gets above the freezing point, even during summer months.

You're right, it never does. That's why the variables are relative humidity with regard to ice and barometric pressure. Ever heard of those?

To say that no clouds can ever persist at all without chemical interference is one of the most blatantly boneheaded statements I've ever seen and displays that you cling to the chemtrail lie to fill the void in your knowledge of the skies.

Chemtrails are a form of nanotech. They're not spraying us like cockroaches. If that's what you think, i think they are.

Because you say so? Despite no nanotechnology ever being discovered in a contrail sample? Another mug reeled in by nano-bollocks.

a reply to: McChillin

Oh, i get it. You're the type of person that needs a whistleblower to have a press conference, telling us exactly what they're doing, in order for you to understand, huh?

Not at all, but as has been said before extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence to back it up...something that hasn't happened yet.

Let me also take a guess, and say, you failed chemistry class, in high school, right?

My education is not the topic of this thread, so why are you interested in it?

Oh no, wait, i know....you're a scientist, who works as a mechanic for a major airline?

Nope and I never claimed to be, but since your asking I do metal fabricating, and before that worked for a dredging company, but again that isn't the topic of this thread.

How about a Meteorology Professor at Harvard, who teaches classes regarding the weather???

No I am not, but I know how how to weed out the BS that some try to push as truth and as soon as you can do that you may actually understand that chemtrails are not real and are a hoax started in the mid 90's by one Will Thomas.

And you say chemtrailers should be ashamed?

Sorry, but that isn't what I said and this isn't my thread, so if your going to put words in someones mouth at least get it right.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: McChillin

After you're done absorbing those facts, chew on this, and you'll start seeing the bigger picture.

I'm sorry but that is a definition and it has no bearing on chemtrails whatsoever.

But feel free to keep trying as this has all been discussed in the myriad of threads on chemtrails...I suggest you go through them so you quit rehashing information that has been shown to be false well before your posts.

What's the point of debating, when the mods can pick and choose what is relevant and what is not; what is on topic, and what is off topic. So, since speaking freely isn't encouraged here, i'd rather not speak at all. Believe how you see fit because i don't feel ashamed, not one bit. You should feel ashamed that you don't see the big picture. And i'm not just talking chemtrails, either.

Weather manipulation is just part of the overall plan, but keep denying it. It's your choice.

a reply to: tsurfer2000hRipping apart someone's comments, isn't providing proof or facts, either. You're doing nothing but sugar coating the matter. Not providing anyone with anything but your opinions, to our comments. That's not a debate. SHOW ME YOUR FACTS, AND WHY I SHOULD BELIEVE YOUR FACTS! Give me something to sink my teeth in. Change my opinion.

You can't because there will always be a rebuttle.

a reply to: McChillin

It's obvious, the subject of the discussion is on topic, trying to undermine the person you're debating with because you can't actually answer the valid points they raise is not. Surely someone of your i creole intellect can figure that out.


I'd feel ashamed if someone had fooled me into believing in a stupid lie. But there ya go.

a reply to: waynos

To say that no clouds can ever persist at all without chemical interference is one of the most blatantly boneheaded statements I've ever seen and displays that you cling to the chemtrail lie to fill the void in your knowledge of the skies.

Prove otherwise.

Contrails are a form of cloud, in case you didn't know. Maybe you don't know what a cloud is???

In meteorology, a cloud is a visible mass of liquid droplets or frozen crystals made of water or various chemicals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of a planetary body.[1] These suspended particles are also known as aerosols and are studied in the cloud physics branch of meteorology.

An aerosol is a colloid of fine solid particles or liquid droplets, in air or another gas.[1] Aerosols can be natural or not. Examples of natural aerosols are fog, forest exudates and geyser steam

originally posted by: 3danimator2014
Why?

Because you clearly believe that something quite dramatic and bad for the human population is being done on a daily basis and you are doing nothing about it.

You could be mankind's savior, become famous, earn lots of money and shut us debunkers up...

Insults have been hurled by both sides...sure. But far more from your side calling us paid shills, disinfo agents etc...

So, what an i suggesting? Why don't you:

- Go to lots of airports from around the world (organise yourselves) and get sample of jet fuel and take it to independent labs and get it tested for additives that should not be in there. This alone, if you find anything, will be a HUGE deal since it will be indicative of a major crime being committed.

- Track thousands of flights over months/a year that you think are spraying. Use binoculars and online tracking sites to record the flights, that way a pattern will emerge on which planes are spraying, when etc....

- Take thousands of photos of said planes, build a case file.

- While you are doing that, go online and get the air conditons for that day and your area. Consult Appleman charts for EACH specific day to see if long contrails might be due to weather conditions. Tie these to each day in a manner that can be easily referred to by anyone. Again, if something is going on, it should start to become evident.

- Keep a detailed not of the weather conditions on each day. Since long contrails form frequently ahead of rain, a big deviation from this might be proof of something nefarious happening.

- Hang around airport back roads (as much as you can without being arrested) and keep a detailed diary of which trucks are delivering what and to where. Is the fuel going to a weird location at the airport? Write it down. Maybe its somewhere where they are adding the stuff you think they are adding. Keep notes of what other trucks deliver what to that area.
Keep special note of any chemical trucks. If they are unmarked. Follow them when they leave. See where they originate. It might be a chemical company. Since no one has ever done thins, it might be this simple. The important thing here is to build a case, keep a note of times, when things are delivered. etc...

- A bit harder to do...but make friends with aircraft engineers in bars frequented by the staff at airports. Get to know em, speak to them. Build up a picture of ANYTHING they might find weird about the planes they work on. It might not reveal much, but ANY info they might be able to tell you might be the missing piece to the info you have collected above.

- This one is very important: Debunk the science of persistent contrails. Go to contrailscience.com and tell the owner of the site where he is wrong. If the science is wrong, PROVE IT. He has asked you countless times to do so and no one has. Now...i understand. You say "its not up to me to prove it", but if you want to save humanity, your children's futures, bite the bullet, take on the challenge and show us that it is US who have misunderstood 100 years of meteo science. This is exceedingly important thing to do as it will be the foundation of your case.
You have got to tell us where we have misunderstood about cirrus clouds not creating rain etc... You have to (pardon the pun) pick holes in our theory of the start and stopping on contrails due to gaps in the supersaturation of the air. Please please please (a hundred times) tell us what we are misunderstanding.

- Stop using known liars who routinely post doctored photos or easily debunked articles. If they are selling stuff on their websites or have a "donate" button, then don't use them as proof. They have an ulterior motive and will only harm your case. Stay as FAR away from these people as possible. They WILL harm your case. Come in clean and honest.

- Use your detailed log of the flights going over you and the weather on that day to prove that the checkerboard patterns you are witnessing that day are not simply due to regular jet airway patterns and wind blowing the previous planes contrails to the side a bit until the next one comes...I mean, it seems fairly straightforward, but armed with your detailed notes, you can throw egg in our faces.

- Finally, start a kickstarter fund or find a rich chemtrail believer to pay money to hire one of the many air sampling planes you can hire to fly into the chemtrails you see and take samples. Obviously samples from the ground cannot be used since there are way too many sources of pollution down here. And remember that pollution can travel for thousands of miles. Here in London we routinely wake up to find fine sand on our cars that has come over from the Sahara. Sure, this might be pricey, but if that guy could get 50K to make that silly film, i'm sure you can raise the money for a plane hire for the day.


Now, i realise that all this is extremely time consuming and some aspects can be expensive. BUT, think of the service to mankind you will be providing. You will saving 7 billion people. You familes, your kids, their future kids...the world will be in your debt for exposing this heinous crime against humanity. You will be rich. Famous. And everyone will owe you a debt.

How can you just sit there on your a**es while you watch the world getting poisoned?
How can you just sit there on your a**es while you watch your kids breathe in this filth?

Get organised and do the above. Notice i used the word "detailed" a lot...because it is with scrupulous note taking and collecting ALL the details that you can get the basta*ds who are poisoning you mums and dads and your newborn babies...

No one has said this so far in 20 pages of chemtrails posts...but this is the big one. If true, this is one of THE most important things to bring into the public eye. This isn't about moon landings or even 9/11...this would affect us all and i cant think of any greater conspiracy to uncover.

OR:


Just keep coming on here and posting links to youtube videos and unrelated patents..Your choice. Your move. Prove US wrong. Be the bigger man/woman and prove to us that you are right and we are being sprayed. This isn't a playground, this is serious (if you are right)

Good luck!

It is a lot cheaper to agree with the establishment than to prove a conspiracy. For most people that is the primary reason why.

If you can provide a grant to cover the costs; it would be an interesting collaboration. This would be the same evidence needed to debunk Chemtrails too... How much are you willing to pay to be right here?

I am not willing to pay a dime.

God Bless,

a reply to: McChillin

What facts are you looking for? You seem to have been arguing how debunkers are wrong because weather modification and cloud seeding can be shown to be real and Nano particles can be shown to exist.

The problem is nobody is actually disagreeing with you on those two points. It's the way you think thry are linked to chemtrails and don't understand how contrails and clouds behave that makes you easy meat for the scammers. You seem to think that contrsils that persist should always do so if chemtrails aren't to blame. This shows you don't understand how the atmosphere is very fluid with ever changing conditions (how do you imagine weather happens?) and have no understanding of relative humidity and barometric pressure. Without that understanding you are in no position to make declarations about chemtrails or contrails and would be ill advised to form firm opinions on the matter.

originally posted by: waynos
a reply to: McChillin

It's obvious, the subject of the discussion is on topic, trying to undermine the person you're debating with because you can't actually answer the valid points they raise is not. Surely someone of your i creole intellect can figure that out.


I'd feel ashamed if someone had fooled me into believing in a stupid lie. But there ya go.

I'm not fooled into believing anything. I've done my homework, and done my research. Which ever angle you want to maturely debate this topic, is fine by me. We can go with the chemicals in the fuel, to the molecules in the atmosphere. How ever you want to slice and dice, is fine by me. So far, there has been no proof given, by you or anyone else. Just a bunch of chatter saying this, and saying that.

I'm the newbie here. SHOW ME THE WAY.

So far, i've shown you HOW. You're the one fighting the facts. Not me. You've given me nothing to fight about. Again, you can believe how you see fit, just stop spreading the propaganda of your contrail theory.

originally posted by: McChillin
a reply to: waynos

To say that no clouds can ever persist at all without chemical interference is one of the most blatantly boneheaded statements I've ever seen and displays that you cling to the chemtrail lie to fill the void in your knowledge of the skies.

Prove otherwise.

Contrails are a form of cloud, in case you didn't know. Maybe you don't know what a cloud is???

In meteorology, a cloud is a visible mass of liquid droplets or frozen crystals made of water or various chemicals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of a planetary body.[1] These suspended particles are also known as aerosols and are studied in the cloud physics branch of meteorology.

An aerosol is a colloid of fine solid particles or liquid droplets, in air or another gas.[1] Aerosols can be natural or not. Examples of natural aerosols are fog, forest exudates and geyser steam

Prove it? Are you saying you've never seen clouds in the sky for more than a few minutes? Lol. I think we'll leave that there as you are clearly trolling with remarks like that.

Edit. Oh, has he gone?

originally posted by: McChillin
a reply to: fleabitWhat proof? Contrail pushers have no proof. In fact, to say you can prove chemtrails don't exist, is an insult to my intelligence. For a cloud to persistently linger, there has to be a chemical reaction happening and something which made that chemical reaction happen, otherwise, normal contrails would constantly persist and linger. Again, you can't have it both ways. And please, don't say anything about the temperature at 30,000 feet. It never gets above the freezing point, even during summer months.

Chemtrails are a form of nanotech. They're not spraying us like cockroaches. If that's what you think, i think they are.

Whatever you think they are spraying (massive tons of nanotech? lol..), eventually would make its way to the ground. At least, that is the prevailing opinion.. they are spraying us. Although some seem to think they are only spraying some magical chemical or tech that stays in our atmosphere forever. But the majority feel they are spraying our water and cities. Thus they complain they feel sluggish, nauseated, fatigued et al.

Here is a list of the top 200 environmental firms: enr.construction.com...

I worked for one in the top 10 for about 15 years. There are a lot of these companies for a reason.

Here is how it works: any company that can produce wastes of any kind (and that's most companies), must be in compliance with EPA rules and guidelines. If they fail to do this, they can be fined.. and quite a lot. From hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions of dollars. So obviously they want to stay in compliance. This is why a lot of soil, water, groundwater, wastewater, air sampling tests take place. On a very regular basis, and anywhere there are businesses. So basically, everywhere.

The company I worked for, for example, had an air sampling unit.. a small trailer, that would monitor 24/7/365. It housed a satellite and all testing equipment, and sent back air quality samples constantly. There is testing equipment that is left permanently down wells, in streams, and so on. Many of the larger companies both test these samples themselves, and send quite a bit out for testing in multiple independent labs. Because it was critical that the final results provided to a client be accurate, as they pass those along to the EPA as proof of their compliance or cleanup if necessary.

We used to get stacks of ice chests sealed in that were basically full of dirt. They would be tested in-house and sent to labs. A strict CoC was in place to ensure that the data was not tampered with and accurate.

The bottom line of all that testing is that if there were "clouds" of anything being dropped over towns and cities and water and reservoirs.. it would be common knowledge. And if it were dangerous and in great quantities, there would be massive red flags that would cause the entire environmental remediation sector to go up in arms, and we would know. They identify -everything- in these samples... they don't just ignore certain chemicals or metals. They identify hundreds of types, down the PPM that would even begin to be considered a dangerous level for humans or wildlife. They don't "miss" these mystery chemicals.

If it were there.. we would know. People say "just test".. but there is testing, constantly. And none of the chemtrail crowd can explain how these supposed chemicals are never found in these tests. Because they certainly would be. But they are NOT. Ergo.. they don't exist.

So yea.. proof is there. People just prefer to ignore it, because it's more entertaining to be dramatically freaking out about some sinister plan to poison and kill everyone.

What's ironic is that we are doing a fine job of poisoning in much worse ways with factory and vehicle emissions.. and those largely get ignored. If you want to fight a real battle with actual stakes, there is the battle you want to join. China is now selling designer air filters for their citizens. It looks like San Francisco with the smog rolling in.. and you folks are worried about mystery nanotech or chemicals being sprayed on your heads.

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

"Avgas is not jet fuel." I never said it was. Perhaps I was not specific enough. I know people like to nitpick on these boards... I said I was trained to recognize all forms of av-gas by both sight and scent. Perhaps you see it differently, but at my airport av-gas applied to all forms of aviation fuel, including jet fuel.

" I am sure it was not jet fuel too - because jet fuel does not "come out of the sky" at all - even a fuel dump at low altitude will atomise before reaching the ground. "

Sorry, but this is either an outright lie or a statement made in ignorance. Anyone who has parked their car at the end of the runways near O'Hare airport and watched the jets come in for a landing directly overhead knows damn well your car gets soaked in jet fuel after just a few overhead fly-bys. Atomized does not mean gravity fails to recognize it. It only means it takes longer to settle. And for that matter, viscous vapors can, and do, coalesce into thicker droplets. Its called precipitation. Perhaps you have experienced it...

Whether you believe me or not is entirely irrelevant to anyone but you. I said I don't know if they exist or not. And I meant it. I don't know. And neither do you. I do know that I saw and felt a mist of some unknown substance/source after seeing a chemtrail overhead. Maybe the two are related, maybe they aren't. That's what "I don't know" means. But I did see something. To you apparently that means I am lying. Whatever...

If you really want to nitpick and challenge every word someone says may I suggest your time might be better spent on something that actually matters...

(if you don't see the point by now...there is no helping you...and btw, if this very very simple point has escaped you, please have any work you do on aircraft checked by someone else...)

a reply to: Vroomfondel
You say that you are undecided and unsure as to whether chemtrails exist, but in your first post in this thread you stated that you had seen a "very obvious chemtrail". These are rather contradictory statements and may indicate why you ended up in this loop of discussion.

When you saw the plane overhead, what type was it, and do you know how high it was? Chemtrails, as defined by the ringleaders of the conspiracy themselves, are those long white trails left up in the sky, often from horizon to horizon. It strikes me that what you experienced cannot have been one of these because any particulate matter in such a trail would take about 6 or 7 days to reach the ground, by which time it could have travelled to the other side of the world, but cannot possibly have fallen straight down seven miles within a few minutes. During WW2, before the development of the Norden Bombsight, RAF and USAAF bomber crews would count as accurate any bomb that fell within four miles of the target area, and that was heavy iron bombs weighing 500lb, just to illustrate that those particles aren't falling as you perceived.

It may have been some other kind of dump, but that wouldn't qualify as a chemtrail. Chemtrail theory defies all logic and common sense, but there are plenty of other reasons fluid might fall from a plane, fuel dump, leaky toilet, firefighting and cropdusting being among some possibilities.

You ask if it could be sprayed separately from the fuel. This is highly unlikely for a number of reasons. Firstly, all the ground crew and the pilots would have to be aware. Is it credible to you that every single person working in the air transport industry is so devoid of morals that some kind of expose wouldn't have occurred over the last two decades? It isn't to me. The main one though is that a contrail is simply too massive and heavy to be a chemtrail sprayed by a plane. It's been calculated that a cloud just ONE kilometre long and a hundred yards wide weighs as much as a Boeing 747. Contrails (labelled in photographs as chemtrails) can often be seen to stretch for hundreds of miles across the sky. If you know about any aircraft with that kind of capacity (and I'll let you off with fuel, passengers and luggage completely) then I'll stop thinking it so ridiculous.

a reply to: waynos

In my first post I stated that I had seen a very obvious chemtrail. That is true. When I said I don't know if "they" exist or not, I meant the type that are the core of the conspiracy theories. I know planes can create what many people would call a chemtrail. We have all seen them. I cant say with any certainty that they are or are not linked to any nefarious scheme. I simply don't know. Logically it would appear the evidence suggests there is no conspiracy. But that is not proof. I am not stating an opinion one way or the other, simply that I choose to reserve judgment until there is adequate evidence.

The plane I saw was a commercial airliner. I can not give you more detail than that. The plane that went overhead was not at cruising altitude, ~35,000 feet. Both O'Hare and Midway airports are nearby. Not often, but some jets pass by at fairly low altitude. I would guess the lowest I have seen directly overhead was 3,000 to 5,000 feet.

Yes, any particles that were released would travel before reaching the ground. And if the path of travel was directly in line with the chemtrail, it would land on anyone directly beneath it, remembering that the trail also widens as it falls. Which is one thing that bothers me about chemtrails vs contrails. Contrails do not fall and disperse. They don't "travel". I have seen criss-cross patterns of trails in the sky overhead, on more than one occasion. And I have lived in this area for many years. And I know that some of those trails did not align with any flight path I am aware of, or that is used on a regular basis. Why just once or twice a year? (that is what I have noticed, but I don't sit in the yard staring at the sky every day...)

Again, I could shoot all kinds of holes in the conspiracy theory too. And I can also keep an open mind enough to allow for the possibility that there is something there I don't know about. Is it a huge conspiracy involving thousands of commercial aircraft and flight crews, mechanics, FBO's, etc? Who knows... Is it government jets that look like civilian commercial airliners doing it? I don't know. How long did the Janet flights fly out of the airport in Las Vegas before anyone noticed there was something strange about them?

In a world of infinite possibilities, I prefer to reserve judgment until there is sufficient information to make an informed decision, regardless of how obvious the answer may seem. Obvious isn't always correct.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Is there a troll bin for this?