It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Help ATS via PayPal:
learn more

Finally saw the full effect of Illegal Immigration in Los Angeles. We're in trouble.

page: 8
<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in


posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:07 AM
the idea the "capitalists" are causing this needs some clarification:

some of the capitalists are causing this.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:11 AM
silly's supposed to be like this in the end won't get better, HA.....
The people living in the end times will have no excuse for not knowing they were in the end times.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:12 AM

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: sdcigarpig

Actually the solution relies in making sure that the home country isn't such a s#y place to live. In order to do this, first you'd need to end the war on drugs. This would get rid of the cartels. Then second, you'd need to start investing money into Mexico's infrastructure (possibly in the newly legalized drug trade). This will start funneling tax money to the government legitimately. Then promote good leadership and education. After awhile the flow of illegals will slow down and America would have two neighbors that it is proud of, instead of just one.

Though I know no one wants to discuss real solutions, because real solutions involve America admitting it made a mistake with the war on drugs. Fat chance that will happen any time soon. Instead we'll bitch about the illegals more and more while putting together bandaids that don't do anything to fix the problem.

I'm not an American beaut I curious to know why you think America should pay for Mexican infrastructure.

The real solution is to seal the border and police it effectively and empower law enforcement to do their job. The solution is also to round up all the illegals in huge sweeps and deport them. Document them as much as possible including DNA samples.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:22 AM

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
If we for some reason had astronomical numbers of people from say, Sweden, crossing our borders illegally, we would be talking about the Swedish, but we don't. 99% of the illegals coming into this country are coming from Mexico, so of course Mexicans are going to be discussed. End of story.

You don't seem to be aware of the Chinese illegal immigrants.

When's the last time you heard anyone complain about illegal Asians?

Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials deported 1,678 people to China during fiscal years 2012 and 2013 combined, according to information provided by ICE spokesman Carl Rusnok. ICE shipped 20 fewer people to China in FY 2013 than it did the previous fiscal year, despite growing Chinese immigration numbers. Since 1960, the number of Chinese immigrants arriving in America has increased each decade, according to a Migration Policy Institute report. “The Chinese born represent the second-largest immigrant group in the country (after the foreign born from Mexico) in 2010,” the report says. Chinese illegal immigrants attracted to the U.S. alongside their Central American counterparts will likely contribute to the continued growth of the Chinese immigrant population. Spratte says he’s heard rumors that Chinese juveniles might be headed his way next, but he says he has encountered only Chinese adults thus far.
edit on 2-12-2014 by Annee because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:29 AM
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain
Did you see the documentaries "they come to america" and "they come to america 2"?
It's not specifically about hospitals, but about illegal immigration.
edit on Tue, 02 Dec 2014 09:29:33 -0600 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:37 AM

originally posted by: mortex

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: sdcigarpig

Actually the solution relies in making sure that the home country isn't such a s#y place to live. In order to do this, first you'd need to end the war on drugs. This would get rid of the cartels. Then second, you'd need to start investing money into Mexico's infrastructure (possibly in the newly legalized drug trade). This will start funneling tax money to the government legitimately. Then promote good leadership and education. After awhile the flow of illegals will slow down and America would have two neighbors that it is proud of, instead of just one.

Though I know no one wants to discuss real solutions, because real solutions involve America admitting it made a mistake with the war on drugs. Fat chance that will happen any time soon. Instead we'll bitch about the illegals more and more while putting together bandaids that don't do anything to fix the problem.

I'm not an American beaut I curious to know why you think America should pay for Mexican infrastructure.

It's called investment. In business, you invest money into something so that you can see a positive return from it later. If you can't see the gains that helping Mexico climb out of third world status would have for the US, then you are just blinded by conservatism (we've always done it this way so we have to continue doing it this way). I'd rather live with a neighbor that likes and respects me rather than have a neighbor that is trying to get around my excessive security all the time. In business, cooperative relationships make BOTH parties more money in the end.

The real solution is to seal the border and police it effectively and empower law enforcement to do their job. The solution is also to round up all the illegals in huge sweeps and deport them. Document them as much as possible including DNA samples.

That's not a solution. That's a stop gap measure. It's not going to stop illegals from crossing the border and it will just waste a lot of money and time. In order for an idea to be an ACTUAL solution, it needs to actually STOP the problem efficiently.

Did it ever occur to you that if Mexico weren't such a crappy place to live, people wouldn't want to come here so badly? Fixing Mexico, stops the problem from the source instead of trying to plug the flow while the water is running. Then we wouldn't NEED to spend all that money on border security, make laws that aren't always followed, or empower police officers with too much authority.
edit on 2-12-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 09:51 AM
Don't get me started on Florida Lol

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:01 AM
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Excellent post.

I actually live on the southern border, we have 2 ocean borders, and a northern border as well.

If they secured the border anymore where I live, there'd need gun turrets with a shoot to kill order. Those who claim nothing's being done on the southern border don't know what they're talking about.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:14 AM
After reading this thread I just want to relate an observation I made one day, millions of people have migrated to America and Canada to find a better life, much like almost all our ancestors. Fair enough, I can't blame them, I met a couple that left Iran, they spoke good English.

But here is the story I really wanted to relate, I went to a restaurant one day and they had a worker from India and a worker from China, guess what language they were speaking to each other ? Now they had super heavy accents, they had to deal with co-workers and the general public as well. I could see they were struggling communicating with each other, but really what other choice do they have.

Bottom line come to North America learn English first, Spanish and French are good second and third options.
Why do you think why have trilingual packaging on almost everything we sell now.

Also I deal with the general public everyday, and people who want technical information and can't speak English don't even know what English words to use, yet they expect to be helped, I try to help them, but after maybe 5 minutes of going back and forth, I just tell them I am sorry I don't know what you want. Because the next English speaking person that is waiting to be helped is watching this getting really ticked off waiting for the entire exercise in futility to be over.

Anybody that deals with the general public and has multiple languages being spoken in their community knows about this problem, the other issue when you ask them a question the answer always seems to be yes, they never say no.
But always answering yes can create huge communication issue's, when trying to solve something, it's like they don't mind throwing the dice with 50/50 chance of being right. Actually if you speak two languages and deal with the public it helps you to land the job. I remember a very white VP once came by and was talking to us and was saying you need to hire more of this particular race, which we already had within our midst, but he wanted even more because of the language issues that were happening. Reverse prejudice if you will. So in 2014 a white male that speaks only 1 language is no longer a favorite as he was 30 years ago. Also many formally minority groups are now in charge of human resources, I don't think we need affirmative action, just give it to the best qualified person and sometimes that person will speak 2 or 3 languages well.

But nobody should have an experience like the OP had, nobody should feel like a tourist in there home area, because those that deal with the general public can't speak English, honestly they just aren't qualified to hold that job.
edit on 2-12-2014 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:15 AM
Countries with large numbers of their natives in first world countries has had there nations directly or indieectky destabalized by yhtose very same first world nations at sometime; through coups, assasinations, destructive foreign policy, corporatism, theew home nations have become almost unbearable dor some, and theh run to the nation that has been marketed as the bread basket if the whole galaxy.

Mexicans were a minority before the 1994 NAFTA agreement that made it damn hard for farmers to make any money, resulting in loss of businesses in the rest of the country. Also are the American and Mexican agencies support of various cartels. You think the fast and furious nonsense was a big mistake with good intentions? Or do you think that has not been going on for decades? Mix this altogether and you have everybody and their moms getting the heck out. Now look at all the other large foreign populations in this and other countries, and you will discover the meddling of the U.S. and other governments in some way.

The desteuction of Jamaicas domestic crop production, which was the backbone of the country's econony, was undertook by U.S. coporations (governemt, really) covert or overt influence of political figures and somestic economic policy. With sevwrwly reduced donestic production of crops, especially the country's big money maker, bananas, they went broke depending on cheap U.S, importa flooding their markets. Jamaicans started to move here in the 70's. Watch the documentary confessions of an economic hitman. See how things work.

Look at Haiti, U.S. foreign policy and support of regime change in thier favor has brought a population over that was non-existing in earlier times. The cost of living has increased five fold since the U.S. backed xoup in 2004. I know pleny of American born Hatian driends with famuly moving in from back home. I met a freind fhrough another older freind who just moved here in 07. I wonder if his decisions weee influenced by his environment chanfing in his home land from foreign meddling.

Don't blame the immigrants who are trying to live just like you. Assimilation is the last thung on their mind when there is money to be made. I agree, rhey need to learn the language, but complaints abouy them!not being American are stupid; are they pushing there culture in your face? I am an American, but i still cannot see exactly what is distinct about this country's culture or "values" besides our empty, vacuous entertainment and consumerism (sorry, but freedom, liberty, industry, and all that good stuff is not unique to this country or culture).

Besides, it is the plan of elites to flood various first world country's with people from the third world, and reinforce sterotypes. Fear, and hate through entertianment and news media. That just makes for an easier population to control.

In order to fix this, we must first reverse the fundamental destructuon purposefully done by our governments, have those countries fix their governments and economy, stop meddling in thier affairs, and tou will see the number of people from those places reduce over time. A few who are living here might head back home.
edit on 2-12-2014 by bigman88 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-12-2014 by bigman88 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:35 AM

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

Bottom line come to North America learn English first, Spanish and French are good second and third options.
Why do you think why have trilingual packaging on almost everything we sell now.

America does not have an official language. As much as some have tried to make English the official language, it isn't.

We are the land of immigrants. They bring their culture and their language.

However, many, probably most, countries now require English taught. Some even require it begin in primary school.

If you want to be a commercial pilot, you better speak English. It is the official language of flying or so I have read.

Also some cultures smile at you and say yes ---- even in their own language. It's more important to make your guest feel happy --- then to say no. Even if the answer really is no.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:45 AM
They come her to live and expect us to change. If i move to mexico i could not expect them to learn english just for me so why am iexpected to lean spanish. They have every right all immigrants do to start a life here but they choose to seperate them selves cuturally& physically.. They dont celebrate our national hollidays to them its a "white holliday" and i quote that from an immigrant who spoke english and told me hes been here since clintion his whole family has. they dont celebrate thanks giving and many in that culture dont because they dont belive???belive what, they dont feel the need to thank god or whoever for the right to live in the land of the free but we better have a cin--co-de mayo paraide or were being racists and biggots. And to not call out hispanics i will eventuall ask all races how the celebrate "american hollidays"when living in america because its not just them. Many races and cultres dont celebrate our holidays. They choose to seprate how can we be expected to change if they are unwilling to.

And to the idiot that said america doesnt have a certian language. I guess u didn't go to school here cuz i learned my abc's an 123's FIRST..... not ah ba ca da &uno dos treces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:50 AM

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: CaticusMaximus

A whole lot more "American Spirit" in the Latinos that I know - hard workers, good community members, educated, politically active. Don't see that in what we used to call in West Virgina - Trailer Trash Culture.

The ignorance of believing only white americans are americans is mind blowing. We are a nation of immigrants.

Yes a nation of immigrants who did try to learn English as a language and Did not receive social benefits from the taxpayers. This time around, things are different.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 10:54 AM

originally posted by: hotcake
They come her to live and expect us to change.

How do they expect YOU to change?

Got news for you, Mexicans and their culture were a part of "America" long before Europeans.

Mexicans and their culture have always been here.

Who exactly expected who to change?

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:03 AM
a reply to: CaticusMaximus

My soul says "NO IT WON'T"
Not while I live.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:29 AM
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I haven't had time to catch up in this thread and have to leave and won't be back until this evening. I wanted to reply to the last post I read before leaving.

I'm really just confused to this aversion people have to learning a second language. I personally can barely speak Spanish, but I'm not opposed to learning if I had to. Being able to communicate with more people is a GOOD thing.

being in a Country where over 200 languages are spoken, yeah it would be good thing to communicate with more people. Good luck learning all those languages! I have learned words and greetings from my former co-workers in a few languages, but could never converse in any of those languages. I suck at learning another language as do many others.

Seriously, are we to have 200 languages here?

edit on 2-12-2014 by Night Star because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:33 AM
a reply to: Night Star

We have the number of languages that our society can bare. If we can function well with 200 languages, then so be it. We appear to be functioning just fine with Spanish quickly becoming a secondary language in this country, so why fight it?

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:35 AM
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Great post. I think there is one more thing on top of what you said that would help fix the problem. There should be a migrant worker program that allows for people to easily go between countries due to time sensitive work. Put the things you stated in place and add migrant worker status and I think the whole problem disappears.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:36 AM
after reading the rest of the thread, i noticed something was missing, something i find very important. yes, hospitals and jobs etc...are important, but lets look at crime for a minute. more recent figures are difficult to find, but lets look at some.

Among the findings:

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) estimates that immigrants (legal and illegal) comprise 20 percent of inmates in prisons and jails. The foreign-born are 15.4 percent of the nation’s adult population. However, DHS has not provided a detailed explanation of how the estimates were generated.

Under contract to DHS in 2004, Fentress, Inc., reviewed 8.1 million inmate records from state prison systems and 45 large county jails. They found that 22 percent of inmates were foreign-born. But the report did not cover all of the nation’s jails.

The 287(g) program and related efforts have found high rates of illegal alien incarceration in some communities. But it is unclear if the communities are representative of the country:
Maricopa County, Ariz.: 22 percent of felons are illegal aliens;
Lake County, Ill.: 19 percent of jail inmates are illegal aliens;
Collier County, Fla.: 20 to 22 percent of jail inmates and arrestees are illegal aliens;
Weld County, Colo.: 12.8 to 15.2 percent of those jailed are illegal aliens.
DHS states that it has identified 221,000 non-citizens in the nation’s jails. This equals 11 to 15 percent of the jail population. Non-citizens comprise only 8.6 percent of the nation’s total adult population.

The Federal Bureau of Prisons reports that 26.4 percent of inmates in federal prisons are non-U.S. citizens. Non-citizens are 8.6 percent of the nation’s adult population. However, federal prisons are not representative of prisons generally or local jails.

A Pew Hispanic Center study found that, of those sentenced for federal crimes in 2007, non-citizen Hispanics were 74 percent of immigration offenders, 25 percent of drug offenders, 8 percent of white collar offenders, and 6 percent of firearms offenders. Non-citizen Hispanics are 5.1 percent of the nation’s adult population. However, the report does not provide information for other crimes or for non-Hispanic immigrants.

Recent reports by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) and Immigration Policy Center (IPC) showing low rates of immigrant incarceration highlight the data problems in many studies. The 2000 Census data they used are not reliable.

An analysis of the data used in the PPIC and IPC studies by the National Research Council found that 53 percent of the time the Census Bureaus had to make an educated guess whether a prisoner was an immigrant. The studies are essentially measuring these guesses, not actual immigrant incarceration.

The poor quality of data used in the PPIC and IPC studies is illustrated by wild and implausible swings. It shows a 28 percent decline in incarcerated immigrants 1990 to 2000 — yet the overall immigrant population grew 59 percent. Newer Census data from 2007 show a 146 percent increase in immigrant incarceration 2000 to 2007 — yet, the overall immigrant population grew only 22 percent.

The Survey of Inmates in State and Federal Correctional Facilities shows that 8.1 percent of prisoners in state prisons are immigrants (legal and illegal). However, the survey excludes jails and relies on inmate self-identification, which is likely to understate the number of immigrants.

In 2009, 57 percent of the 76 fugitive murderers most wanted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) were foreign-born. It is likely however that because immigrants can more readily flee to other countries, they comprise a disproportionate share of fugitives.

Most studies comparing crime rates and immigration levels across cities show no clear correlation between the immigrant share of a city’s population and its level of crime. This is one of the strongest arguments that immigrants do not have high crime rates. However, such studies generally measure only overall crime, not crimes specifically committed by immigrants, so their value is limited. And a 2009 analysis by the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Immigration Statistics found that crime rates were higher in metropolitan areas that received large numbers of legal immigrants, contradicting several older cross-city comparisons.

From 1998 to 2007, 816,000 criminal aliens were removed from the United States because of a criminal charge or conviction. This is equal to about one-fifth of the nation’s total jail and prison population. These figures do not include those removed for the lesser offense of living or working in the country illegally. The removal and deportation of large numbers of criminal aliens may reduce immigrant incarceration rates because many will not return and re-offend, as is the case with many native-born criminals.

Some have argued that the fall in national crime rates since the early 1990s is evidence that immigration may actually reduce crime. However, overall crime rates are affected by so many factors that it is a very poor way to examine a link between immigration and crime. The 1970s and 1980s saw crime rates rise along with immigration levels.

Overall incarceration rates are also a poor means of examining the link between immigration and crime. Since the 1970s, the share of the U.S. population that is incarcerated has grown almost exactly in proportion to the share of the population that is immigrant. But unless inmates can be identified as immigrant or native-born this information sheds little light on the issue of immigrant criminality.

A central problem when looking at prison populations is that many inmates have been imprisoned for a long time. Therefore, today’s prison population partly reflects the nation’s demographics of earlier years when immigrants were a smaller fraction of the population. To make an accurate comparison one has to adjust for length of sentences and the growth of the immigrant population over time.

link for above stats.

posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:37 AM
then we could look at a few individual crimes.
link for below stats

1) Keeping a sex slave for 18 months: POLICE in the US have arrested an illegal immigrant who allegedly imprisoned a 27-year-old woman as a sex slave in his booby-trapped home for 18 months…The New York Daily News reports that Oscar Ayala-Arizmendi, 36, has been charged with multiple rape, assault and drug possession charges after the woman escaped from his house outside Buhl, Idaho, and told authorities she had been repeatedly raped and abused.
The case is reminiscent of the notorious Cleveland House of Horrors case, in which Ariel Castro kept three women in vile conditions for years…Unlike Castro and his victims, the relationship between Ayala-Arizmendi and the unnamed woman appears to have started on a consensual basis, with her moving in to his house two years ago — however within six months the situation had degenerated to such an extent that he was locking her in his bedroom and forcing her to use a wastepaper basket as a toilet.

2) The illegal alien serial rapist: On Wednesday, U.S. Marshals brought Baltazar Gabriel Delgado-Ros, 28, back to Palm Beach County (Fla.) where he was wanted for the rape of five women.
DNA evidence has linked Delgado-Ros to all five rapes, according to investigators.

All the incidents took place between April 2009 through September 2011.

All of the rape victims were beaten and even bitten.

3) ) The illegal alien who murdered a woman driving him to the hospital: Meet 27-year-old Julio Miguel Blanco-Garcia. An illegal alien from Guatemala, he has lived and worked in Fairfax County, Va., for at least 11 years. The region is a notorious “sanctuary” for immigration law-breakers where elected officials and big business look the other way for cheap labor and cheap votes.
When he wasn’t working illegally as a construction worker in the government-fueled Boomtown ‘burb or getting himself high on drugs, Blanco-Garcia was building up a lengthy rap sheet.

...But it was too late for 19-year-old college freshman Vanessa Pham. In July 2010, the bubbly art student’s decision to be a Good Samaritan to open-borders beneficiary Blanco-Garcia cost her life. After getting her nails done at a Fairfax Plaza salon, she encountered the illegal alien and his infant daughter in the parking lot. Blanco-Garcia was strung out on $400 worth of PCP.

According to prosecutors, he asked Pham to take him to the hospital. She let the man and his baby into her car. When Pham took a wrong turn, Blanco-Garcia turned on her — stabbing her more than a dozen times with a knife he was carrying. She veered into a ditch; he coldly wiped her blood off of his hands with a baby wipe and clambered out of the sunroof with the child.

4) An illegal alien who molested a child and was paid 4 million dollars by Orange County, CA: On April 17, 2009, the Orange County Board of Supervisors agreed to pay $3.75 million, plus an additional $900,000 in medical expenses to an illegal alien who was severely beaten by other inmates in the Orange County Central Jail. The Mexican national filed a lawsuit shortly after the incident.
Fernando Ramirez, 24, was in jail after being charged with molesting a 6-year-old girl at a local park. He eventually pled guilty to the lesser charge of battery against a child.

5) An illegal immigrant rapist who had been deported 9 times: In this case a Mexican national with an extensive criminal record and nine deportation orders raped a woman in Edmonds, a picturesque waterfront town famous for its views of the Olympic Mountains rising above Puget Sound. The illegal immigrant (Jose Lopez Madrigal) was first deported in California more than two decades ago and has since been convicted of a multitude of violent crimes, including armed theft, sexual assault and drug-related offenses.
The crimes were committed in different states—California and Colorado among them—and Madrigal had a staggering number of encounters with law enforcement in the last two decades, according to the local news report that broke the story of his multiple deportations. When he got arrested this last time, it took authorities longer than usual to learn his real identity because he had well over two dozen aliases.

The level of incompetence among federal immigration authorities in this case would be comical if Madrigal’s crimes weren’t so heinous. After the first deportation in 1989 for using a firearm to commit theft, Madrigal got deported several more times in the next few years. In 1999 he was deported three times in a four-month period after drug-related arrests. After a similar offense in 2000 he got deported yet again and in 2002 he got deported after pleading guilty to sexual assault in Denver. In 2003 Madrigal got deported three more times.

It would seem like a huge joke if the illegal immigrant didn’t brutally rape a woman last week.

6) The illegal immigrant terrorist who planned to blow up Jewish synagogues: A Moroccan national (in the country illegally) who plotted to blow up Manhattan synagogues was sentenced to five years in prison Friday.
Mohamed Mamdouh, 22, copped to three crimes under state terror laws on Feb. 28 in exchange for a five year prison sentence, plus three years of post-release supervision.

Prosecutors said Mamdouh and "mastermind" Ahmed Ferhani -- busted on May 11, 2011 -- discussed dressing as observant Jews to infiltrate synagogues and tried to buy weapons to arm themselves for "the cause."

"His case has been about bringing to justice two men, angry at what they perceived as the unjust treatment of Muslims in the world, who spoke of their hatred for Jews, and plotted to attack synagogues in New York City using explosives," prosecutor Gary Galperin said at Mamdouh's sentencing.

"Their intent was to create chaos and to intimidate and coerce Jews living in New York City, and thereby send a message far beyond New York," he added. Ferhani at one point said he wanted to attack 10 synagogues.

7) A 13-year-old gang raped by illegal immigrants: A little 13 year old girl was gang raped by a bunch of illegal immigrants. She had run away from the Settlement Home For Children, only to find herself in a car with this gang of thugs who shouldn’t have been in our country in the first place. What ensued is horrific.
The teen victim tells police she was taken inside an apartment, where Ortega forced himself on her as the other men cheered him on, recording the assault on their cell phones. All the men took turns having sex with her against her will. A forensic exam revealed injuries consistent with her claims.

“It’s sad that we can’t even let our children go outside…or have them carry pepper spray or knives, at 13, that’s sad,” said Leticia Rodriguez, another resident at Avalon Palms, which has no security on site or functioning security cameras.

Rodriguez said, “They don’t even give us a note or something and say oh, this happened, please be careful with your kids and not let them go out. They don’t tell us nothing.”

The affidavit states the assault lasted until early into the morning of June 30, then the victim was driven to a nearby neighborhood and told to “find somewhere to go.”

...Only two of the men have been arrested, and are now reportedly being held on immigration detainers.

new topics

top topics

<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in