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Trinities in old pagan religions (Air, Water, Death)

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posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: arpgme

Do you have any speculations or insights into why these archetypes (Creation, Water, Air, Death) are repeated through these cultures?

Typically, when elemental archetypes come to mind, I think about the standard Fire, Water, Air, and Earth.

When I think of Life and Death, I typically envision a triad of singular change, consisting of Birth/Creation, Sustainment/Neutrality, and Death/Destruction. In addition to other concepts, this triad of singular change comes to mind when I ponder the symbols of Infinity, Yin and Yang, and the Ouroboros.


The 3 or 4 archetypes of the op make for an interesting consideration.




posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 07:53 AM
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a reply to: Sahabi




Do you have any speculations or insights into why these archetypes (Creation, Water, Air, Death) are repeated through these cultures?

Typically, when elemental archetypes come to mind, I think about the standard Fire, Water, Air, and Earth.


My guess is that it actually is the 4 classical elements.

The Creator creates creation (Earth)
Death destroys and transforms (like Fire)

So, it actually is the 4 classical elements Earth, Water, Air, Fire with that interpretation.

This seem to connect with what I said in another thread I made (Fire/Wrath vs Water/Mercy), because fire destroys like death and transforms like wrath to make someone consider their actions of how they treat others.

On the other hand, the water (mercy/forgiveness) can easily put out the flames (wrath/judgment). Maybe this is why these Bible verses were written:

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:" - Luke 6:37

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" - Matthew 6:14

"...Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven..." - Matthew 5:44-45



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 01:09 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Well you can blame books like the White Goddess for a lot of that misinformation sadly. But also people who go the "if the Greeks did it, every one else in the area must have", which is an old sloppy thinking



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 02:51 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.


Anything someone "believes" is "God" is not the creator God because it is impossible to know the creator God through belief ....therefore all beliefs of a God or Gods are false.
edit on 2-12-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 02:52 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.


Anything someone "believes" is "God" is not the creator God because it is impossible to know the creator God through belief ....therefore all beliefs of a God or Gods are false.


That, in itself, is a belief. You realize that, right?



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.


That's right, although the Christian trinity concept really has little to do with trinities in polytheism. The concept is quite different.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 02:57 PM
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originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: arpgme

...

Typically, when elemental archetypes come to mind, I think about the standard Fire, Water, Air, and Earth.

...


Fire, water, air and earth are not standard. They're relatively modern.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine


"Fire, water, air and earth are not standard."


They are standard, in that, most of our current world now place these 4 Classical Elements at the forefront of preeminence. I am aware of the fact that different cultures at different times used different systems to represent Classical Elements.


"They're relatively modern."


I beg to differ. These 4 Classical Elements have been classified by many ancient cultures. Said cultures listed additional Elements, but these 4 have been with us since ancient times.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: arpgme


My guess is that it actually is the 4 classical elements.

The Creator creates creation (Earth)
Death destroys and transforms (like Fire)


I was actually pondering this reasoning. I find cross-cultural and interreligious commonalities to be quite fascinating!



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Tangerine


"Fire, water, air and earth are not standard."


They are standard, in that, most of our current world now place these 4 Classical Elements at the forefront of preeminence. I am aware of the fact that different cultures at different times used different systems to represent Classical Elements.


"They're relatively modern."


I beg to differ. These 4 Classical Elements have been classified by many ancient cultures. Said cultures listed additional Elements, but these 4 have been with us since ancient times.


It's the number four that's key. Mentioning that these cultures included additional elements makes the four an unimportant number. The significance lies not only in which elements but in the numbers. The numbers, themselves, were significant. I believe Noinden has already pointed out that the Gaels used nine. Threes were significant and, of course, three threes especially so. When you reference ancient cultures, it helps if you name them so we know we're talking about the same thing.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Thanks and indeed!


But are we now talking about 4's or 3's? The thread title says 3 (air, water, death), and the opening post presents a 4th (creation). And have we bypassed the Elements altogether and went straight for "sacred" mathematics?

I am no guru nor academic trying to espouse a stance, I am simply making conversation for a supplemental understanding.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 05:18 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.


Anything someone "believes" is "God" is not the creator God because it is impossible to know the creator God through belief ....therefore all beliefs of a God or Gods are false.


That, in itself, is a belief. You realize that, right?


no it isn't it is fact.



posted on Dec, 2 2014 @ 11:14 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Rex282
The creator God is not a "trinity" that is religious myth nothing more.The creator God is ONE.


polytheism was a thing before monotheism. way to dismiss history in a word there.


Anything someone "believes" is "God" is not the creator God because it is impossible to know the creator God through belief ....therefore all beliefs of a God or Gods are false.


That, in itself, is a belief. You realize that, right?


no it isn't it is fact.


Facts are based on testable evidence only. Please cite the testable evidence on which your claim of fact is based. I want to alert world media.
edit on 2-12-2014 by Tangerine because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 08:13 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Sigh This thread had a great deal of potential, but its now become a dogma fest. While I did not agree with the OP as to the trinities, I'm not that ingrained to worry about it too much. It is in an area that I am very familiar with too


What confuses me is the quick segway into the classical 4 elements, but I guess it is what people are msot familiar with.

Just to elaborate on my points a bit more. I listed ONE of the pre-Christian/early christian Gaelic ideas of elements. There are also others. The trinity of Land Sea Sky (and not that was NOT earth, water, air, but you'd only get that from reading the source material). There is the duality of here and the otherworld etc. Its a complex thing.



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 08:43 PM
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originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Tangerine

Sigh This thread had a great deal of potential, but its now become a dogma fest. While I did not agree with the OP as to the trinities, I'm not that ingrained to worry about it too much. It is in an area that I am very familiar with too


What confuses me is the quick segway into the classical 4 elements, but I guess it is what people are msot familiar with.

Just to elaborate on my points a bit more. I listed ONE of the pre-Christian/early christian Gaelic ideas of elements. There are also others. The trinity of Land Sea Sky (and not that was NOT earth, water, air, but you'd only get that from reading the source material). There is the duality of here and the otherworld etc. Its a complex thing.


Yes, the Land Sea Sky elements are the ones with which I am most familiar (although I certainly know about the four elements, too). I just wanted to make the point to the other poster that most claims about paleo-pagan beliefs and cosmologies are too generalized or outright false. Unfortunately, much is due to the erroneous information spread by some Wiccans who claim or imply that they represent pagans and to the lack of education about pre Greek and Roman cultures and belief systems.

I agree that this is a complex topic that doesn't lend itself to the bulletin board format and requires genuine interest.



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: Noinden

The OP raised the commonalities between the shared triad of Air, Water, and Death. OP then opened up with the inclusion of the creator archetype which ruled above the cross-cultural triad. So we are looking at this grouping of either 3 or 4.

Instead of discussing with us, you now speak condescendingly? Although you do not personally agree with this particular grouping of 3 or 4 mentioned in the op, you simply ignored the discussion to impose the Indo-European system upon us, then chide for not accepting your post as absolute.

Even if you put more stock into the Indo-European system, that does not change the fact that there is a very real shared commonality of archetypes stretching from the Mediterranean to India. This shared commonality is what the thread is seeking to explore. Instead of exploring this commonality with us, you seek to throw away the entire topic to instead focus on Indo-European systems.


My brother, any and all numbers, elements, and archetypes are merely for our own individual understandings and reasonings. All systems are lacking and none are absolute. Why? Because no matter what we name a thing, it will always "Be What It Is." No set of archetypes, elements, or numbers can contain the true essence of existence. "It is what is is."



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 09:15 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

A Creator as the progenitor of the triad of Water/Sea, Air/Sky, and Death does indeed exist throughout the systems mentioned in the op. Whether we think it is right or wrong, or if we think we have a grasp of something better,... it does not negate the fact that this commonality exists between the Mediterranean, Levant, and Fertile Crescent. It is this commonality that we seek to explore. Why shy away from discussion to impose a personal preference?



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 09:43 PM
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a reply to: Sahabi

Wow you really are reading to much into it. I was offering alternatives, which is more than anyone else has done. I'm not chiding anyone, and you are being rather sensitive which makes me wonder a number of things. All off topic.



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 09:48 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine


Unfortunately, much is due to the erroneous information spread by some Wiccans who claim or imply that they represent pagans and to the lack of education about pre Greek and Roman cultures and belief systems.


Actually, my first conceptualization of a complete system of elemental archetypes was introduced to me by Captain Planet.
Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, and Heart ruled by the great Mother Goddess




I learned of the Classical and Philosophical Greek systems in school, and the Chinese system from my family.

There is a great potential for insightful conversation into any system,... but here, we are trying to explore the commonalities between the Mediterranean, Levant, Fertile Crescent, and India.



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