John Titor - Geiger Counter's From The Past

Alway's being entertained by the topic of this persona, I find myself re-visiting it often. There is apparently a pseudo John Titor time machine for sale on ebay, and I took interest in making comparison's of the photo's. I noticed and even comment on the geiger counter in the photo of the 'real' titor travel machine.

Notice it inside the cover of the time machine, the yellow box sitting on top toward the rear,...



Now I used to have one of those along time ago, and it was fun to play with, although mine used a very hard to find and expensive type 'B' 22.5v battery. So it sat on the shelf more often than not.

I decided to identify which model counter it was, just out of interest, and because I dont know if it's ever been positively identified.

I looked at the above picture,... and then looked at the following picture,.. and there was my answer...


In the titor picture, the unit seems to have an 'inverted ledge', if you will, on the lower section of the front bottom of the case. This is only apparent in the first photo.

Both photo's though, show in the back of the unit (the portion facing your body if you were holding it properly for use) there appears to be not one, but two metal clasp's, one located off center and to the left of the one in the middle.

As far as I know, there is only one model with both of those feature's, as those feature's were used in the 'double-clamshell' type case, and as far as I know the 717 was the only model to use this type case.....

The Victoreen, Model CD V-717

southernradiation.com...




So here I am,.... wondering,..

Why would John Titor be relying on a model that the government had procured only 100,000 units or so of, and one that could easily be replaced with a more modern unit that was used in more modern times that is more compact, accurate, and has longer battery life?

These model's were apparently designed in 1969, although standard use was for Civil Defense personnel up to 1985.

This boggles me, even just in 1990, we had vastly superior and smaller ways to monitor radiation. So why did he bring one of those back from 2036?

Originally posted by smirkley

Why would John Titor be relying on a model that the government had procured only 100,000 units or so of, and one that could easily be replaced with a more modern unit that was used in more modern times that is more compact, accurate, and has longer battery life?

Brilliant sarcasm at its best

To answer the question posed, I would have to say because thats all he could find to make his hoax seem real.

He is apparently a great hoaxster. There is very little to his story that can be conclusively proved or disproved. What you are presenting is circumstancial and up to our own reasoning, although I think most people think he is not for real. I think the person behind John was a genius in that he did do something similar to War Of The Worlds. We may never know his motives, but we will always remember him. In a way, he made a statement on society, whatever you may feel about his story.

I can look at this whole thing objectively,.. (and am assuming for the sake of this post that it is real), and am looking for a rational reason on why that model used.

There are just so many reasons to use so many other devices for monitoring radiation than this one, even if I were to agree it a hoax.

Hrm, what time period was the geiger counter made and used?

If I'm not mistaken, before comming to our timeframe, he visited the 1970's to pick up that IBM computer. That geiger counter might have been picked to go with the other time period he visited.

Government Procurement - Fiscal Year 1955 - 1985 100,100 (units?)(from the link)

OMG those devices are so bad. I could go down to Home Depot and create many of the same props if I wanted.

Well, since I was on the subject, I just completely re-read the whole Titor transcripts to see if there ever was reference to this.


The only direct reference I can find about 'measuring for' radiation by the time traveler, is on page 1 of the ATS archive...

Timetravel_0: I'm not sure what radiation you mean. If you mean from the unit, you can see it vents X-rays and Gamma radiation out of the rear. As long as you stay away from that, you should be okay. I keep a radiation detector with me to check my environment and make sure the unit isn't "leaking".

This implies to me, plus the fact there is other reference to the emissions of x-rays from the unit, that for the existence of known use of this device would require a radiation monitor to be used every time it has ever been used. IE-he wouldnt leave home without one.



Yes, since there is absolutely no reference in his transcripts of ever making any mention of picking this up on his trip to get the 5100 at all, nor the comment of ever had having needed one, plus his statement is in the singular, ...

I can only assume he brought this 1969 Nuclear Fallout detector from the year 2036 since he does not suggest he has any other devices handy for taking such needed measurements with him.

Basically, he brought back a 67 year old or so design and device, for monitoring his machine's emissions.
(This means he would need several D cells to carry with him also)


Plus, although I could be mistaken, that even though x-rays and gamma rays are very close to each other in the spectrum, I am not sure that the Victoreen unit is capable of measuring the x-ray spectrum as it's particular function is to measure gamma radiation from nuclear fallout.










[edit on 11-12-2004 by smirkley]

There is any number of a billion reasons he could have that.

Fiscal year of 1955? Circa 1969? Common civil defense 1985?

Doesn't sound like 1975-6 area it would be too hard to get one.

I don't know why he has to have mentioned picking it up just for it to happen.

See, we're both in bad spots here.


Logically, you claim that because he did not remark upon something, it did not happen. This is a fallacy, because I can do things that I do not remark on. The simple fact that he did not say "Then I picked up a Victoreen" does not prove that he did not pick up a Victoreen, and thus was not there, and thus did not exist to travel through time.

Though, logically, I am facing most of this boardful of dumb-to-superintelligent people, arrayed against me and ready to beat down my statements. Logically I am not an expert in radiation detection, the history of US radiation detection equipment, or the availability of the Victoreen unit in the years 1975-1976. I stand at a serious disadvantage, not only for these points, but also for the fact that I am taking the stance that a man who claims he came back from 2036 is telling the truth.

Can you see my predicament?

Now, as I said (I hope I've said it, it can be my way to natter and ramble in my posts, to type along my trains of thought) - I could choose any one of hundreds of ways to explain his having a Victoreen unit.

1) Because of decreased production capabilities, units similar to the Victoreen in style and function came back into production. Detect radiation specifically from nuclear fallout? In Titor's timeline, I believe that was a focus.

2) After a nuclear war, not a lot of high tech units were left, and the Victoreen was about all the remnant of a rebel military had to send on this particular mission.

3) He picked it up in 1975.

4) He took it back because he was going to 1975.

5) He aqcuired it recently for fear his own unit was malfunctioning, and this was all he could acquire with his present funds.

6) Same as above, except his need to not draw attention to himself with the purchase of an accurate radiation detector is in place of a lack of funds, he chooses the Victoreen - knowing that it will not draw as much attention because of its antiquity.

7) He just happens to have picked one up for the sake of it, because he takes an interest in this sort of thing.

8) He couldn't show us 2036 technology and decided to leave something in there for us to identify with.

9) He knew it would make sense to show a radiation detector but didn't want to prove anything, so he just used this, which he had with him.

10) He's not that smart and thought this might work as a radiation detector.

11) Old Victoreen units and similar units have been refitted for new use.

- Now, I wrote those in about 4 minutes. That's total time from me typing '1)' to 'use.', thought included. And I went pee. If it's that easy to propose logical possibilities that could defeat your qualm, then your qualm does not strike a severe blow against whatever sort of case Titor still holds.

I'm sorry, I have an interest in Titor's story, and tend to play the devil's advocate in these sort of topics. I'd say I'm at present more in the field of thought that it will happen than I am in the field that it won't. We've got a possible proof of it not happening coming up. If there's an upset at the inauguration, we've got a proof negative, if the Patriot Act is abolished, we have another.

People keep saying "He's just so lucky since it is so hard to prove that he's wrong, he never left us anything concrete enough to disprove" - Well, no, he did actually leave billions of things concrete enough to prove him wrong, just, he was right enough about all of them that we haven't had any proof he was wrong yet.

Before we start calling the end-game, before we start feeling secure and thinking it's all safe to shout out fraud, we should wait. What's the rush - we've either got our whole lives or the 3 someodd years left until civil war breaks out. Nothing we say or do now is going to prove John Titor right or wrong, so let's speculate and stipulate and dramatize and confuse and confound - and then forget everything we've said and do it all again, and find out that everything we've said is useless, because the truth is hidden in time.

Let's just let it pass.

Sound good?

You also forgot one,..

Why was he using a counter that may not even be able to accuratly monitor the actual x-ray's he was worried about.

This feels like a wasted post..

See 3)-11) With the tag on of 'John wasn't too apt for knowledge of radiation detection', then you've got 5) and 6) - all the rest work whether or not he's stupid.

I remember when I first heard of Titor - someone scoffed at the talk of the Russians throwing nukes our way, citing that they were allies. With recent events, however, I wouldn't put it past them as things progress over in the satellite countries.

Still, I think it's a fraud.

Over the next year when there's no civil war it'll be obvious.

I decided to identify which model counter it was, just out of interest, and because I dont know if it's ever been positively identified.

...Regardless of what it proves/disproves about Titor.

Still taking an interest in this Geiger counter,..

I decided to determine if this counter had the needed capabilities that John Titor desired.

First it was designed for monitoring gamma radiation from nuclear fallout. I had to consider if the counter was designed to also measure the x-rays that was mentioned more than once as being of concern.

What x-ray components are there in a nuclear blast, ..

In an atmospheric detonation, this electromagnetic radiation, consisting chiefly of soft x-ray, is absorbed within a few meters of the point of detonation by the surrounding atmosphere, heating it to extremely high temperatures and forming a brilliantly hot sphere of air and gaseous weapon residues, the so-called fireball.

Nuclear Weapon Effects

Ok,...there are x-rays in nuclear blast, but only in initial stages of reaction, and only within a few meters of the point of detonation. So this isnt a factor in the design of the meter to have to monitor.

I found out it's really hard to google the information on such an old geiger counter, and commonly only found general information, including the manual for it, which offered no clarity to my question.

But I did find a copy of the Handbook for Radiological Monitors published by the Department of Civil Defense - Office of Civil Defense, 1963, and in it I did find a reference to this model geiger counter.

In reading this, I discover that the CD V-717 is actually a 'remote measurement' retrofit to the CD V-715, but with the same specification's.

An interesting comment in this handbook about the 717 is,..

The CD V-715, 0-500 r.hr survey meter, will measure gamma doses only, and is used for general post attack operations.

OK, so now not only is it designed for use only for measuring post attack gamma radiation where no x-ray's would be expected, but the unit is only designed to measure gamma radiation dose rates.



I guess I can summarize,... throughout his time travels, he has been relying on all the time (or whenever he picked this up for use) on a very old gamma radiation survey meter that doesnt even measure x-ray's at all, to indicate to him if the machine is experiencing any dreaded x-ray 'leakage'.




Interesting,... and to imagine if I hadnt taken an interest in this survey meter and recognised it.



[edit on 13-12-2004 by smirkley]

You would think if Titor came from a time when a time machine was so small it could fit in a small box that he would have better equipment.

Our we suppose to believe this guy is given what would have to be the most advanced piece of equipment on the face of the earth a "time machine" but then they give him a Geiger counter designed half a century ago?

The guy should have a gieger counter that could fit in his wrist watch

[edit on 13-12-2004 by ShadowXIX]

I should be done soon ,..


Well since I can say with certainty that the survey meter is stated as being able to detect gamma radiation only, and this model used for detecting not nominal levels, but high levels of fatal exposures of gamma (up to 500r/hr)(which is why the 717 retrofit), then it appears, again, that this unit is the wrong one for the job he intended.

At lower scales, the 717 would inherently be less accurate to measure, as opposed to the 700, when attempting to monitor environment or remote samples. Summing into normal levels of environment this meter would not be of accurate use to look for small increases of levels of gamma. I do not think also, that it would be a great way to locate small localized 'leakage' from the machine, but is more designed to test the ambient levels of a close proximity, or ambient levels of a remote proximity with the transducer placed.

Which brings me to the gamma energy itself,...

Gamma radiation is able to travel many meters in air and many centimeters in human tissue. It readily penetrates most materials and is sometimes called "penetrating radiation." Dense materials are needed for shielding from gamma radiation. I am not sure this 'toolbox time machine' with a combined weight of about 500 pounds, and most of that weight within the microsingularity's(?), that there will be enough shielding material within the box to keep the gamma radiation from just scattering out of the toolbox in all directions, let alone be able to 'vent' them as Titor has eluded to.



Anyway, if he meant to bring or use this particular model of meter for environment use only,... I guess it would be fine for testing the new time location he was at.

Aside for not being able to test for any x-rays at all, if this were to be used to test for humanly harmful gamma levels that may leak out, these levels potentially could have/should have, caused sickness or harm to John as the leakage would have occurred. The survey meter has no audible alarms so leaving it on and staring at it to monitor for peaks or jumps in the analog meter scale, is the only way to 'monitor' using this model.

And of course, finally,.... this analog meter has a magnetic 'movement' driven by electrical signals in order to accurately indicate. Some of these survey meter's do have installed, a 'ruggedized' lense, to provide for additional EMP protection. I suspect this type lense would have shielding over the meter 'movement', built into the lense to protect from stray magnetic force's influence's. But I dont think that this meter 'movement' was designed to operate in a field range of magnetic flux or gravity anaomoly that could bend a laser pointer beam. The movement would most definitely be influenced by the magnetic or gravity field environment that this time machine would produce.




Basically I am convinced, and hope for rebuttal or supporting information, that this geiger counter (survey meter) is just completely the wrong choice and technology for the purpose intended. (real or hoax). If this were real, John would likely be very sick to say the least. And as a hoax, with all the other attention to the finer details of the story,...how could something so blatantly irrelevant as this old geiger counter be considered except as a half-hazard afterthought to just add it in the photo to support the story.

Can someone give me some linkage to the background of this whole post.. it sounds interesting/comical.. and I like Comedy..

Osiris

ATS has the whole archive from the home page,..

The ATS John Titor Main Content Archive

think about the entire american industrial infrastructure being oblitorated in WW3 and then consider the fact they were far more worried about the demise of the human race to even consider rectifying the happless manufacturing plants of these products, that is perhaps the only kind of giger counter they could find?

then again in a post apocolyptic future you would think that a giger counter would be pretty high priority, who is to say that the one he has isnt much more advanced then the ones we are accustom to? only similiarities are the appearance.

Even moreso,...

he had a time machine, why not just stop off on the way in 2004 and get one of the latest greatest models, that can do all-in-one with a digital display and an accurate sensor.

My worries are that there are also other time travelers out there that he knows of,...probubly with the same cruddy safety equipment.



[edit on 13-12-2004 by smirkley]