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Is Jesus the serpent of the Genesis and the one in Numbers?

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posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 09:04 AM
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Genesis 3
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Numbers 21
8The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” (this is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus)
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Who this serpent really is?
By using Moses as an example, Jesus basically is saying that He is related to that serpent. If the serpent is a symbol of the devil (as per dogma belief says this days), Jesus would not have use it as an example for Him.

Interesting enough that the symbol can be compared with the Rod of Asclepius (a deity associated with healing and medicine). In the bible this symbol is also called as the Nehushtan (or Nohestan) (Hebrew: נחושתן or נחש הנחושת) it was a "bronze serpent" on a pole.




posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 09:32 AM
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a reply to: Abednego

Is Jesus the messenger of God? The Son of God?
Is Hermes the messenger of God? The Son of God?

What does Hermes hold? The Staff with the Snake.
It is thought that Hermes is a humanized version of an earlier snake god of babylon.

I think a lot of these things got melded together.

I think the message is that God is Within. And I think when it talks about moses raising the snake, that it's talking about kundalini energy.

That's just me though. Oh and Actually that's exactly how it happened for me.

Are there 33 vertebrae in a human spine? 33??
edit on 24-11-2014 by KnightLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: Abednego

No to derail the OP, but my biggest concern is how many people died waiting for the sculpting, molding, smelting and production of said staff? Couldn't YWWH have found a quicker way to keep people from death, like maybe deterring the snakes from biting the Hebrew people?



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:10 AM
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You're over thinking the passages. The 'Nehushtan' as it became known, was a symbol of God's love for the people, just like Jesus was. Just as the serpent pole was sent from God, so too was the Son and so too would the Son save the people. It is also wholly possible that Jesus understood how difficult it would be for the Jewish people to accept a physical Son of God, and likened himself to the Nehushtan (something familiar to them) for ease of comprehension. The very concept of God becoming man was blasphemous to the Jewish people, and this comparison could have been meant to help them better understand.

As for the symbolism of the serpent itself, God sent the serpents as punishment for the people for their attitude at the time. Bear in mind from your other topic regarding King David, that satan was not a deity of any comparison to God. Satan in Hebrew means 'adversary.' Due to modern bastardization of the term, we commonly accept the word 'satan' as referring to the mean red guy with horns and a pitchfork that tempts all of existence. While this is true to an extent, being there was an original satan, the original was also never given a singular name and was referred to solely by the terminology at the time (satan/an adversary or opposer). In a more proper sense, if you're referring to the original satan, it would be more proper to call it 'Ha-Satan,' or 'The Adversary.' This being the case, there is a lot of confusion as to when the term 'satan' is mentioned in the Bible as opposed to the being of Ha-Satan. There did exist angelic messengers which carried out the will of God, and were perhaps referred to as 'satans' as they were adversaries of/opposed the will of man (punishment for going against the will of God). While I can't say what God was thinking at the time, it's possible the serpents were sent as a reminder not to oppose His will or to be 'adversaries.' As for why He chose the snake on a pole to cure the people, perhaps that was the easiest thing for them to remember to look at if they got bit.

The Rod of Asclepius may have been inspired by the Nehushtan yes, but that has nothing to do with this theory. It's also been suggested the Rod was inspired by the process of treatment of Dracunculus medinensis, or the wrapping up of a guinea worm around a stick. It's amazing what a little reading and research will do for you.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:13 AM
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The Books of Moses were written thousands of years before the Gospels of Jesus were collected. If the intention was to retcon Jesus as the serpent, you would have had some clear flashback scenes in the Gospels.

You don't see that anywhere, so my guess is that the authors did no intend for that parallel to be made.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:19 AM
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The Serpent in the Garden was a Sumerian El named E.a/En.ki. Otherwise known as Prometheus, Ptah, Poseidon, Hephaestus etc. Half brother of En.lil/Yahweh. NOT Satan.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:28 AM
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originally posted by: Oannes
The Serpent in the Garden was a Sumerian El named E.a/En.ki. Otherwise known as Prometheus, Ptah, Poseidon, Hephaestus etc. Half brother of En.lil/Yahweh. NOT Satan.


As I was discussing with retconning, there is more evidence that the authors wanted to tie the serpent of Eden with Satan, than there is to suggest a tie with Jesus.

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years” Rev 20:2

“The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him” Rev 12:9

Seems like the author of Revelation wanted the connect to be seen.
edit on 24-11-2014 by AgentShillington because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:58 AM
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originally posted by: Septimus

The Rod of Asclepius may have been inspired by the Nehushtan yes, but that has nothing to do with this theory. It's also been suggested the Rod was inspired by the process of treatment of Dracunculus medinensis, or the wrapping up of a guinea worm around a stick. It's amazing what a little reading and research will do for you.


I did research but, I'm quite certain that ancient people could distinguished a serpent from a worm.
About the Nehushtan, snake cults had been well established in Canaan in the Bronze Age: archaeologists have uncovered serpent cult objects in Bronze Age strata at several pre-Israelite cities in Canaan: two at Megiddo,[5] one at Gezer,[6] one in the Kodesh Hakodashim (Holy of Holies) of the Area H temple at Hazor,[7] and two at Shechem.[8]

Why use an old symbol of a pagan god and not create a new one that could only be attributed to Him (God). Doing that bring more confusion to the people.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 10:59 AM
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there are many things i don't understand..
..the way of a serpent on a rock

the only way these things seem to make sense is types & shadows,
even the eye that is single can be conveniently extrapolated to the third eye
in the same way this snake pole ends up doing here
(cool south park ep last night- cockmagic; the gathering.. but i digress, i always do..)
these things usually end up entailing so much more
(uhh, like septimus was saying)
like that eye that is single, it's many things (and ultimately one thing, yeah)
like a tightrope-walker might require this single-eye to *focus* on the task at hand (and so on)
the bible says many are called but few are chosen

 


..it's maybe 32 bones & 1 skull bone, knight?
/shrug
edit on 24-11-2014 by UNIT76 because: bb code stuff ...kittens!




posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 11:01 AM
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originally posted by: AgentShillington

You don't see that anywhere, so my guess is that the authors did no intend for that parallel to be made.


The author did not intend for that parallel to be made; Jesus did. (those were his own words, according the gospel)



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 11:09 AM
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originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: AgentShillington

You don't see that anywhere, so my guess is that the authors did no intend for that parallel to be made.


The author did not intend for that parallel to be made; Jesus did. (those were his own words, according the gospel)


Well, someone wrote the words down, so whatever you think Jesus might have said is merely what an author wants you to think is important. That having been said, the author doesn't make a very strong case for his being the serpent of Eden, he is actually connecting Jesus to Moses through the use of the Brass Serpent.

Even if I concede that Jesus is linked to Moses' serpent, Satan is -clearly- linked to the Serpent of Eden.

So, if we were to connect Moses' Serpent with the Serpent of Eden, we would then be able to determine that Jesus is Satan, and I don't think that is the intention of the story, so I don't think that is what the authors were getting at.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: AgentShillington

can you go over the butterfly dunes topic some time?
here
i'd appreciate someone elses perspective on Jesus, snakes & other giant worms
and anything you'd be willing to say on cultural marxism might be nice



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: AgentShillington

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: AgentShillington




So, if we were to connect Moses' Serpent with the Serpent of Eden, we would then be able to determine that Jesus is Satan, and I don't think that is the intention of the story, so I don't think that is what the authors were getting at.


Even the bible does not says that the serpent in the garden was Satan. So we don't really know the serpent's identity. Just the fact that the serpent gave knowledge to humans.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 11:40 AM
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a reply to: Abednego

I think you missed this the first time.


As I was discussing with retconning, there is more evidence that the authors wanted to tie the serpent of Eden with Satan, than there is to suggest a tie with Jesus.

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years” Rev 20:2

“The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him” Rev 12:9


Twice, St. John links Satan with the Serpent. This isn't even ambiguous. It is in plain language with no need for interpretation.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: UNIT76

just when we think we have the right rooster to win here comes someone being randy as they change the whole game.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:13 PM
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The Genesis story can be obviously ruled out because Jesus was always obedient to the Father and his will was not to dissuade man from the truth, but to lead him back to it.

Jesus has an entirely different character than the snake which is satan.

But you do make some sense in that you mention the snake which is used by Moses.

I do not know the story well, but I can recount it. I do not know the verse so it may be kind of off.

After the Jews had worshiped the golden calf in the desert a curse fell upon them and they were stricken by pestilence and covered with sores. Moses repented for his people and asked God to have mercy and heal them.

God told Moses to erect a crucifix with a snake on it and all who's eyes fall upon it will be given health.




Notice that Jesus' main purpose was not to heal the lepers of their physical wounds, but to heal men of the diseases and sores of their hearts. Jesus is the lamb slain before us.

The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world does not lead us to do them, but to be healed of them by looking upon him and accepting the guilt that you my have and repent of it.

There is no deceit in Christ.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:18 PM
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originally posted by: AgentShillington
a reply to: Abednego

I think you missed this the first time.


As I was discussing with retconning, there is more evidence that the authors wanted to tie the serpent of Eden with Satan, than there is to suggest a tie with Jesus.

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years” Rev 20:2

“The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him” Rev 12:9


Twice, St. John links Satan with the Serpent. This isn't even ambiguous. It is in plain language with no need for interpretation.


It does said ancient serpent, but does not allude to the garden of Eden. Satan is not the only dragon, ancient serpent mentioned in the bible.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by: backcase
God told Moses to erect a crucifix with a snake on it and all who's eyes fall upon it will be given health.


No. There is no crucifix in the Old Testament, at all. There is a pole with a snake on it, but the depictions of it being a cross with a snake on it are not canonical. The Romans brought the crucifixion with them. The Hebrew weren't doing that until after the Romans came.


4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” 6 Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze[a] serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.


If we are going to discuss the book, let's discuss the book, if we are going to discuss beliefs, at least mark them as such.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: Abednego

You'd be surprised what can be misconstrued after several thousand years. God's ways are not our ways. What makes sense to us may not be what God ends up doing. To use a pole mounted with the image of a snake (a device which had been the subject of idol worship at the time) is indeed strange at first consideration. The Talmud suggests that it wasn't so much the symbolism of the serpent so much as it was the act of looking up and submitting themselves to God.

There is also Aaron's Rod to consider, the rod that transformed into a snake and devoured the snakes of Pharaoh's magicians. These symbols and miracles I don't think should be contributed to some hidden truth, but should be observed in the objective sense. Aaron's Rod and the brass snake are just a few examples of how God often turns evil against itself in order to bring about good. You see this theme all throughout the Bible. It's said even as far back as Genesis in 50:20 after Joseph was abducted by his brothers...


And as for you, ye meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.


An abduction fueled by jealousy and greed turned into a good (Joseph rising to prominence in Egypt and forgiving his brothers after they repent of their ways, where they enjoyed generations of peace and prosperity). God is above all things, including those who do not obey and their ways. I think in utilizing the serpent, God is showcasing his dominance over evil by utilizing it for good.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:29 PM
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a reply to: AgentShillington

Ah, thank you. I did not know the correct quotations.

My words still stand though.

The serpent on the pole is still a symbol for Christ crucified.




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