It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Canadian Vets enlist with Peshmerga to battle ISIS

page: 2
10
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:13 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

You're wrong there.

The people who flock to ISIS's flag do so for very different reasons than the people who travel to fight with the Kurds.

If that's not obvious to you well....good luck with your book.




posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh

ISIS beheads children. They publicly behead people for not following their version of Islam and then post their heads on pikes in city squares. They take large amounts of prisoners (many of whom are noncombatants) and commit mass executions. In some cases, they have even buried large amounts of people alive. They are indoctrinating children to grow up and do the same things.

How can you even compare the two? The peshmerga are fighting for their lives. ISIS wants kurdish territory, and peshmerga forces are not going to give it to them without a fight.

I see what you are trying to get at, but the two groups are night and day when it comes to not only how they treat their enemies, but also when it comes to how they treat noncombatants and people of other faiths.



you don't need to dictate to me who , the ISIS are , and what they have done . i have many friends who's lives have been effected by the ISIS .


has any diplomatic measures been sought out with the ISIS ? most likely not ... i know what your thinking "the ISIS is not willing to seek diplomatic measures " we won't know unless we try . but sending or allowing people to go and fight is not the answer ..



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

I think that most would say you can't negotiate with such fanatics, and I would agree. What would it say about a nation if they were willing to bargain diplomatically with such a vicious and criminal organization? History is full of examples of attempts to appease the evil. It never works. They tried to appease Hitler and look how that turned out? Should they have struck up diplomatic efforts with Hitler when he was gassing Jews?

Unfortunately, while I share your distaste for violence, sometimes it is the only language certain people understand.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: Walsh

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh

There's a big difference between the YPG and ISIS.

If you had been paying any attention to what's been happening in Kobane, and it's outlying regions, over the past 8/9 weeks, for example, you probably wouldn't write a post like you just did.

People can go on about how ISIS are a construct designed for this reason and that, but it's what they are doing and who they are doing it to that I personally find more the pressing issue.

Believe me, no matter what way you cut it, ISIS are an entity worth destroying or at least defending innocent people from.



i am not trying to defend the ISIS , i am just trying to make valid point's that people who are going to fight with YPG are of the same mind set as a "Muslim " who goes and fights with ISIS , they are fighting under the same ideas .




No, they aren't. One group is fighting to kill anyone that opposes their religion, the other group is defending themselves from that ideology and does not persecute minorities. Their ideas are diametrically opposed.


not entirely correct .





If you want to understand the Islamic State, better known as ISIS, the first thing you have to know about them is that they are not crazy. Murderous adherents to a violent medieval ideology, sure. But not insane.

Look at the history of ISIS's rise in Iraq and Syria. From the mid-2000s through today, ISIS and its predecessor group, al-Qaeda in Iraq, have had one clear goal: to establish a caliphate governed by an extremist interpretation of Islamic law. ISIS developed strategies for accomplishing that goal — for instance, exploiting popular discontent among non-extremist Sunni Iraqis with their Shia-dominated government. Its tactics have evolved over the course of time in response to military defeats (as in 2008 in Iraq) and new opportunities (the Syrian civil war). As Yale political scientist Stathis Kalyvas explains, in pure strategic terms, ISIS is acting similarly to revolutionary militant groups around the world — not in an especially crazy or uniquely "Islamist" way.






The point is that, while individual members of ISIS show every indication of espousing a crazed ideology and committing psychopathically violent acts, in the aggregate ISIS acts as a rational strategic enterprise. Their violence is, in broad terms, not random — it is targeted to weaken their enemies and strengthen ISIS' hold on territory, in part by terrorizing the people it wishes to rule over.

Understanding that ISIS is at least on some level rational is necessary to make any sense of the group's behavior. If all ISIS wanted to was kill infidels, why would they ally themselves with ex-Saddam Sunni secularist militias? If ISIS were totally crazy, how could they build a self-sustaining revenue stream from oil and organized crime rackets? If ISIS only cared about forcing people to obey Islamic law, why would they have sponsored children's festivals and medical clinics in the Syrian territory they control? (To be clear, it is not out of their love for children, whom they are also happy to murder, but a calculated desire to establish control.)

This isn't to minimize ISIS' barbarity. They've launched genocidal campaigns against Iraq's Yazidis and Christians. They've slaughtered thousands of innocents, Shia and Sunni alike. But they pursue these horrible ends deliberately and strategically. And that's what really makes them scary.



you can read more abut the myths surrounding the ISIS HERE



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:25 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

ISIS continually release videos promoting their expansionist ideology.

If ISIS were "left alone" there'd be lot more dead Kurds in Northern Syria right now.

ISIS are the aggressors, we have seen very recently how they have treated tribes in Syria who stood up to them, with slaughter. They wish to eradicate any and all who not only oppose them but who differ from them ideologically.

Sure it's each our own prerogative if we choose to go and help the Kurds, I'm not telling anybody to go, but saying that somebody who does go to help the Kurdish people is the same as somebody who wishes to live in the Caliphate, exist under Sharia and bring death and terror to the "Kuffar", the "apostates", the "polygamists", the "secularists" the "godless communists"?? Do you think they are the same???



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh

You're wrong there.

The people who flock to ISIS's flag do so for very different reasons than the people who travel to fight with the Kurds.

If that's not obvious to you well....good luck with your book.




No i am not wrong , you have no idea !


i have you spent time in other countries with fighters ? to listen to their story's ?

well i have !

i have spent time in Dagestan and Chechnya and have had the opportunity to speak with ex fighters who fought in factions that were linked to Al Qaeda and the Taliban .

there story's are the same , they fight because they want to defend , same with the people who want to go fight along side the YPG and kurds .

they are going to FIGHT! because they believe they are going to defend those who are in danger .

you can butter it up all you want , they are both fighting for the same reasons .

i will admit though , most of the people in the YPG and kurds are don't really have a religious influence to fight , like allot of the ISIS do .



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:35 PM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: stirling

You make of ISIS what you will, and don't be telling me what to think laddie.

I reckon you should contact any of the Kurdish people fighting the Islamic State via FB, which isn't that hard to do, and ask them "whats the problem guys, you're only fighting a ploy" see what kind of answer you get.



If what he is saying is true then I can just imagine what kind of response I would get from the ISIS informant, via Facebook.




Text a reply to: MALBOSIA 

Look, there's always going to be people who try to use these things to their advantage, everybody knows that. 


What is it called when you describe how something is done as method to deny that it is happening?




edit on 22-11-2014 by MALBOSIA because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:36 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

Thanks for the link. Lots of very well researched material there. However, I'm not exactly sure how it supports the point you seem to be trying to make?

You seemed to be claiming that those who choose to go and fight ISIS alongside YPG forces have the same ideas that ISIS themselves do. That doesn't seem to be supported by the facts (or even the site you linked to). You also haven't really demonstrated why diplomacy would have a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.

I think of it in terms of psychology. What sort of person would it take to physically saw a childs head off with a knife in the name of god? Is that person rational? Are they capable of being reasoned with? I don't believe so.
edit on 22-11-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh

ISIS continually release videos promoting their expansionist ideology.

If ISIS were "left alone" there'd be lot more dead Kurds in Northern Syria right now.

ISIS are the aggressors, we have seen very recently how they have treated tribes in Syria who stood up to them, with slaughter. They wish to eradicate any and all who not only oppose them but who differ from them ideologically.

Sure it's each our own prerogative if we choose to go and help the Kurds, I'm not telling anybody to go, but saying that somebody who does go to help the Kurdish people is the same as somebody who wishes to live in the Caliphate, exist under Sharia and bring death and terror to the "Kuffar", the "apostates", the "polygamists", the "secularists" the "godless communists"?? Do you think they are the same???



why do you feel the need to dictate to me the actions of the ISIS ?

again i know they are an evil force ! that's obvious ....

your basically saying that it's OK to go and fight ! to go and Kill ! just as long as your on the Kurds side right ?

that's the statement your trying to make ?


my statement is simple ..


STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!

you can sit here and chose to promote it ,

but i on the other hand will remain optimistic that some sort of diplomatic measure can be taken .

everyone is saying nay nay nay .. but let's face it the world has not yet tried have they ?

they just keep continuing to poke the lion with the stick .

your really mistaken if you think that war and fighting is the answer to end this !

it will only breed more hate and more killing .

look at history man!



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:42 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

I agree with everything that is contained within those extracts you have posted, except for the part where it contends that ISIS are not interested in sectarianism, they are very much so.

Saying that these guys are not crazy, or contending that there is method to their alleged madness is nice. Sure it opens some people's minds and tries to get them to take a more holistic view of the situation, which is good. But it doesn't change anything, and we can take the same perspective with almost any regime in history. The thing is for me is whether you, or I, believe that what these people are doing is right or wrong. Now, I'm not going to try and dictate morals to you but I find ISIS to be a brutal and abhorrent totalitarian regime. Sure if you're "one of them" and you like to take a stroll down the main boulevard in Raqqa on a sunny afternoon and live in a Muslim state, with all it's trappings, maybe it's a nice life, just like for a while Berlin was a happening place to be in the 30's, it still doesn't make these pricks right in my books anyway.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:44 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh




my statement is simple ..


STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!


Ok. So what is your solution then?

Lets put out a hypothetical scenario. Say the U.S and it's allies publicly announce that their foreign policy decisions have been disastrous in the middle east (which they largely have) and that they are going to withdraw, and stop meddling altogether. Lets say they even issue a public apology to the entire region.

Do you honestly think that ISIS will cease committing atrocities? If the answer is no, then what is your solution?



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: Walsh

i will admit though , most of the people in the YPG and kurds are don't really have a religious influence to fight , like allot of the ISIS do .


To me the most relevant thing you said.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:46 PM
link   
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Yeah, I don't know what you're on about really, but thanks anyway.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:53 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh

I get your point, I just don't agree with it.

Yeah it would be great if we all lived in peace, I really mean that.

For me I would have zero problem with an Islamic State, if they left others alone, they're not though are they?(edit: actually I still have problems with these guys purely on a humanitarian level)

If you saw a man killing another man on the street would you try to help the victim or would you stand there and advise other people, who are going to intervene, not to because they will have to use violence to stop the killer?


edit on 22-11-2014 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:54 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh

Thanks for the link. Lots of very well researched material there. However, I'm not exactly sure how it supports the point you seem to be trying to make?

You seemed to be claiming that those who choose to go and fight ISIS alongside YPG forces have the same ideas that ISIS themselves do. That doesn't seem to be supported by the facts (or even the site you linked to). You also haven't really demonstrated why diplomacy would have a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.

I think of it in terms of psychology. What sort of person would it take to physically saw a childs head off with a knife in the name of god? Is that person rational? Are they capable of being reasoned with? I don't believe so.



maybe i was not clear on my point of view , again I know the ISIS are evil , no doubt !

but the majority of the ISIS fighters are most likely wrongly influenced , most of them join the ISIS because they believe they are some how defending oppressed Muslims . However the very foundation of the ISIS is a political movement who's leaders are pressing forward for political reasons and less religious reasons. we see the same thing here is the US , people motivated by political parties who they believe serve the interest of the people but in reality they serve them self's.


again , Muslims go and fight along side of the ISIS because they believe its for a good cause , just as volunteer fighters go and fight with the YPG and kurds , because they believe its for a good cause .

i am saying two wrongs wont make this right ... at all ..

the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:00 PM
link   
a reply to: Walsh




but the majority of the ISIS fighters are most likely wrongly influenced , most of them join the ISIS because they believe they are some how defending oppressed Muslims . However the very foundation of the ISIS is a political movement who's leaders are pressing forward for political reasons and less religious reasons. we see the same thing here is the US , people motivated by political parties who they believe serve the interest of the people but in reality they serve them self's.


I would agree with the idea that many ISIS fighters view themselves as fighting for oppressed muslims, but I don't think ISIS is mostly guided by political motivations. The fact they have declared a caliphate sort of supports my position.



again , Muslims go and fight along side of the ISIS because they believe its for a good cause , just as volunteer fighters go and fight with the YPG and kurds , because they believe its for a good cause .


Ok. I definitely see what you are saying here (and I agree). I think where the confusion arose, is the suggestion that they were motivated by the same ideas. Yes, both groups are doing what they believe is right, but their ideas about what is right and wrong are very very different.




i am saying two wrongs wont make this right ... at all ..

the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .



I would love to see an end to all war. I don't think that is possible at this current stage in our development as a species, unfortunately. Please see the hypothetical scenario I detailed in my earlier post. I would like to know how you feel a diplomatic solution can be reached.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:03 PM
link   

originally posted by: Walsh

the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .



I would sincerely like to ask how you would envisage this?



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh




my statement is simple ..


STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!


Ok. So what is your solution then?

Lets put out a hypothetical scenario. Say the U.S and it's allies publicly announce that their foreign policy decisions have been disastrous in the middle east (which they largely have) and that they are going to withdraw, and stop meddling altogether. Lets say they even issue a public apology to the entire region.

Do you honestly think that ISIS will cease committing atrocities? If the answer is no, then what is your solution?



that's the million dollar question !

we have to revert to history for this !

where was terrorism 60+ years ago ?

Extremism has been around for century's , they are called Khuawarij




From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death



However , we know that throughout history we have seen these groups come and go . We also know that the direct cause most of these groups are because of war , we see them arise from war.

if you notice , in the "beheading videos " what is the general message ? "USA stop your invasion of our lands and stop your bombings " or else what ? more people die right ?


the simple truth is that the US and it's allies are the reason that the ISIS stands today , because of their invasion into Iraq and other shady dealings .

we know that war and fighting won't stop them ... it's only going to make it worse ,

the only other solution is to try and find a diplomatic ground .

so to answer your question .. i think that if the US stopped meddling in the middle east we would see a dramatic change in events .. for sure ...

i can't speculate on your "what if's" we should face that issue when it comes ..



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:06 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh




my statement is simple ..


STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!


Ok. So what is your solution then?

Lets put out a hypothetical scenario. Say the U.S and it's allies publicly announce that their foreign policy decisions have been disastrous in the middle east (which they largely have) and that they are going to withdraw, and stop meddling altogether. Lets say they even issue a public apology to the entire region.

Do you honestly think that ISIS will cease committing atrocities? If the answer is no, then what is your solution?



that's the million dollar question !

we have to revert to history for this !

where was terrorism 60+ years ago ?

Extremism has been around for century's , they are called Khuawarij




From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death



However , we know that throughout history we have seen these groups come and go . We also know that the direct cause most of these groups are because of war , we see them arise from war.

if you notice , in the "beheading videos " what is the general message ? "USA stop your invasion of our lands and stop your bombings " or else what ? more people die right ?


the simple truth is that the US and it's allies are the reason that the ISIS stands today , because of their invasion into Iraq and other shady dealings .

we know that war and fighting won't stop them ... it's only going to make it worse ,

the only other solution is to try and find a diplomatic ground .

so to answer your question .. i think that if the US stopped meddling in the middle east we would see a dramatic change in events .. for sure ...

i can't speculate on your "what if's" we should face that issue when it comes ..



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: seabhac-rua

originally posted by: Walsh

the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .



I would sincerely like to ask how you would envisage this?


i have reached this conclusion based on my research .

and by the history of the leaders of the ISIS .

it is more a political entity then religious . and i base this off their actions , because there actions "religiously" are against the teachings of Islam .



new topics

top topics



 
10
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join