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originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh
ISIS beheads children. They publicly behead people for not following their version of Islam and then post their heads on pikes in city squares. They take large amounts of prisoners (many of whom are noncombatants) and commit mass executions. In some cases, they have even buried large amounts of people alive. They are indoctrinating children to grow up and do the same things.
How can you even compare the two? The peshmerga are fighting for their lives. ISIS wants kurdish territory, and peshmerga forces are not going to give it to them without a fight.
I see what you are trying to get at, but the two groups are night and day when it comes to not only how they treat their enemies, but also when it comes to how they treat noncombatants and people of other faiths.
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
originally posted by: Walsh
originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh
There's a big difference between the YPG and ISIS.
If you had been paying any attention to what's been happening in Kobane, and it's outlying regions, over the past 8/9 weeks, for example, you probably wouldn't write a post like you just did.
People can go on about how ISIS are a construct designed for this reason and that, but it's what they are doing and who they are doing it to that I personally find more the pressing issue.
Believe me, no matter what way you cut it, ISIS are an entity worth destroying or at least defending innocent people from.
i am not trying to defend the ISIS , i am just trying to make valid point's that people who are going to fight with YPG are of the same mind set as a "Muslim " who goes and fights with ISIS , they are fighting under the same ideas .
No, they aren't. One group is fighting to kill anyone that opposes their religion, the other group is defending themselves from that ideology and does not persecute minorities. Their ideas are diametrically opposed.
If you want to understand the Islamic State, better known as ISIS, the first thing you have to know about them is that they are not crazy. Murderous adherents to a violent medieval ideology, sure. But not insane.
Look at the history of ISIS's rise in Iraq and Syria. From the mid-2000s through today, ISIS and its predecessor group, al-Qaeda in Iraq, have had one clear goal: to establish a caliphate governed by an extremist interpretation of Islamic law. ISIS developed strategies for accomplishing that goal — for instance, exploiting popular discontent among non-extremist Sunni Iraqis with their Shia-dominated government. Its tactics have evolved over the course of time in response to military defeats (as in 2008 in Iraq) and new opportunities (the Syrian civil war). As Yale political scientist Stathis Kalyvas explains, in pure strategic terms, ISIS is acting similarly to revolutionary militant groups around the world — not in an especially crazy or uniquely "Islamist" way.
The point is that, while individual members of ISIS show every indication of espousing a crazed ideology and committing psychopathically violent acts, in the aggregate ISIS acts as a rational strategic enterprise. Their violence is, in broad terms, not random — it is targeted to weaken their enemies and strengthen ISIS' hold on territory, in part by terrorizing the people it wishes to rule over.
Understanding that ISIS is at least on some level rational is necessary to make any sense of the group's behavior. If all ISIS wanted to was kill infidels, why would they ally themselves with ex-Saddam Sunni secularist militias? If ISIS were totally crazy, how could they build a self-sustaining revenue stream from oil and organized crime rackets? If ISIS only cared about forcing people to obey Islamic law, why would they have sponsored children's festivals and medical clinics in the Syrian territory they control? (To be clear, it is not out of their love for children, whom they are also happy to murder, but a calculated desire to establish control.)
This isn't to minimize ISIS' barbarity. They've launched genocidal campaigns against Iraq's Yazidis and Christians. They've slaughtered thousands of innocents, Shia and Sunni alike. But they pursue these horrible ends deliberately and strategically. And that's what really makes them scary.
originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh
You're wrong there.
The people who flock to ISIS's flag do so for very different reasons than the people who travel to fight with the Kurds.
If that's not obvious to you well....good luck with your book.
originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: stirling
You make of ISIS what you will, and don't be telling me what to think laddie.
I reckon you should contact any of the Kurdish people fighting the Islamic State via FB, which isn't that hard to do, and ask them "whats the problem guys, you're only fighting a ploy" see what kind of answer you get.
Text a reply to: MALBOSIA
Look, there's always going to be people who try to use these things to their advantage, everybody knows that.
originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: Walsh
ISIS continually release videos promoting their expansionist ideology.
If ISIS were "left alone" there'd be lot more dead Kurds in Northern Syria right now.
ISIS are the aggressors, we have seen very recently how they have treated tribes in Syria who stood up to them, with slaughter. They wish to eradicate any and all who not only oppose them but who differ from them ideologically.
Sure it's each our own prerogative if we choose to go and help the Kurds, I'm not telling anybody to go, but saying that somebody who does go to help the Kurdish people is the same as somebody who wishes to live in the Caliphate, exist under Sharia and bring death and terror to the "Kuffar", the "apostates", the "polygamists", the "secularists" the "godless communists"?? Do you think they are the same???
my statement is simple ..
STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh
Thanks for the link. Lots of very well researched material there. However, I'm not exactly sure how it supports the point you seem to be trying to make?
You seemed to be claiming that those who choose to go and fight ISIS alongside YPG forces have the same ideas that ISIS themselves do. That doesn't seem to be supported by the facts (or even the site you linked to). You also haven't really demonstrated why diplomacy would have a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding.
I think of it in terms of psychology. What sort of person would it take to physically saw a childs head off with a knife in the name of god? Is that person rational? Are they capable of being reasoned with? I don't believe so.
but the majority of the ISIS fighters are most likely wrongly influenced , most of them join the ISIS because they believe they are some how defending oppressed Muslims . However the very foundation of the ISIS is a political movement who's leaders are pressing forward for political reasons and less religious reasons. we see the same thing here is the US , people motivated by political parties who they believe serve the interest of the people but in reality they serve them self's.
again , Muslims go and fight along side of the ISIS because they believe its for a good cause , just as volunteer fighters go and fight with the YPG and kurds , because they believe its for a good cause .
i am saying two wrongs wont make this right ... at all ..
the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh
my statement is simple ..
STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!
Ok. So what is your solution then?
Lets put out a hypothetical scenario. Say the U.S and it's allies publicly announce that their foreign policy decisions have been disastrous in the middle east (which they largely have) and that they are going to withdraw, and stop meddling altogether. Lets say they even issue a public apology to the entire region.
Do you honestly think that ISIS will cease committing atrocities? If the answer is no, then what is your solution?
From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death
originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Walsh
my statement is simple ..
STOP FIGHTING PERIOD !!!!
Ok. So what is your solution then?
Lets put out a hypothetical scenario. Say the U.S and it's allies publicly announce that their foreign policy decisions have been disastrous in the middle east (which they largely have) and that they are going to withdraw, and stop meddling altogether. Lets say they even issue a public apology to the entire region.
Do you honestly think that ISIS will cease committing atrocities? If the answer is no, then what is your solution?
From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death
originally posted by: seabhac-rua
originally posted by: Walsh
the war needs to stop, the root of ISIS is indeed political so am optimistic that a diplomatic means can be reached .
I would sincerely like to ask how you would envisage this?