Are the people from Israel descendants of Isaac or Ishmael? Posible switch of positions?

GENESIS 17
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”(this is Isaac)

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”

19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers (the 12 tribes?) , and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.” 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
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When I read the above verses, it came to my mind an interesting head scratcher. According to these scriptures Ishmael is the one that will have a nation (just one) with 12 rulers (the tribes?)(the country of Israel or the country of Ishmael?).
And from Isaac will come many nations. (how many countries have Israel helped built? None that I know, they have a few allies but is not the same. They have people in positions of power but that doesn't count as kings.)

Would love to read your opinions.

a reply to: Abednego

how many countries have Israel helped built? None that I know

If anything it seems Israel is trying its hardest to destroy nations...
From annexation of Palestinian land, to the money begging from the U.S. taxpayers while people & especially vets starve without a home...



Israeli leader, Mr.Netanyahu, descends from a Polish man ,who changed his Polish name to a word that translates to "God's Gift" in Hebrew...
That's what these Zionists think of themselves...


As for the true Jews, those with real ancestry through Abraham's lineage...
They're probably descendents of both Ishmael & Isaac...

The immigrant "Jews" of Europe probably descend from Babylonian Royalty like Nebachadnezzur...
The Bloodlines are powerful. They see us a Goyim.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Your post is so anti-Semitic as to be downright frightening. It is comments like these that led to the Holocaust.

I'm ashamed to see such filth on ATS.

Please comment only about the thread.
Thank you.

a reply to: Abednego
The "twelve sons of Ishmael" are listed in Genesis ch25 vv13-15. They are a different group of tribes.

"Twelve" was obviously in very widespread use as a "sacred number".
Apart from the fact that there was more than one "federation of twelve" mentioned in the Old Testament, the number of Greek gods residing at Olympus also ended up as the same total. If memory serves (but I would have to check), one of them was later kicked out of the select number to make room for Hercules.
So the repetition of "twelve tribes" is not such a remarkable coincidence as it appears.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Abednego
The "twelve sons of Ishmael" are listed in Genesis ch25 vv13-15. They are a different group of tribes.

"Twelve" was obviously in very widespread use as a "sacred number".
Apart from the fact that there was more than one "federation of twelve" mentioned in the Old Testament, the number of Greek gods residing at Olympus also ended up as the same total. If memory serves (but I would have to check), one of them was later kicked out of the select number to make room for Hercules.
So the repetition of "twelve tribes" is not such a remarkable coincidence as it appears.

Sounds right but, that's not the case for Isaac. If the number is sacred then why not use it with Isaac instead of Ishmael.

a reply to: Abednego
The story gives him twelve grandsons (via Jacob), which comes to the same thing.
It's just a question of who is regarded as the immediate ancestor of the group, and Israel apparently looked first to Jacob.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Your post is so anti-Semitic as to be downright frightening.

No.
It isn't.

It is comments like these that led to the Holocaust.

No.
It wasn't.

I'm ashamed to see such filth on ATS.

Not half as shameful as labelling someone anti-Semetic for telling the truth.

a reply to: grandmakdw

So a few facts by CharlieSPeirs in your eyes are anti-semitic! Wow the antisemitism card is so easy to throw around. How about using comprehension and just take the words at face value. Oh woe to anyone who would use critical thinking when it comes to Zionism.

a reply to: Abednego

Literal Israel, as in those who consider a literal country of people of a certain bloodline to be "Israel" are in opposition to Paul and the Author of Hebrews.

Flesh=Ishmael/Esau/Cain/Hagar Spirit/Promise=Isaac/Jacob/Sarah

Romans 9
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

Galatians 4
21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Abednego

It's just a question of who is regarded as the immediate ancestor of the group, and Israel apparently looked first to Jacob.

So, basically Israel denied the covenant by using Jacob as the first link in the chain? If that is so, that will explain all the trouble they have right know. Not only that, by doing so they also neglected their cousins by the line of Esau (they don't have anybody serving them right know).

a reply to: Abednego
The covenant was established with Isaac in the passage you quoted (v19, v21).
Then it passes on by inheritance through Jacob- Genesis ch28 vv13-15

It's not 'anti-Semitic' to point out that Israel's behavior is hardly praiseworthy. Or is the rest of the world supposed to not take note when a country hides behind a religion in order to do harm?

As far as the OP goes, I hate to channel Hillary Clinton, but what possible difference could it make which particular (imaginary?) human fathered which group of survivors thousands of years ago?

Are we really going to discuss bloodlines down through the ages, probably completely based on the feverish writings of people who likely were making it all up? What part of your brain is worried about such things? Maybe a thread about 'I worry incessantly about things that are pointless' would be in order. It's called perseveration if you want to start doing the research on that, and it's caused by not enough serotonin.

originally posted by: signalfire
It's not 'anti-Semitic' to point out that Israel's behavior is hardly praiseworthy. Or is the rest of the world supposed to not take note when a country hides behind a religion in order to do harm?

As far as the OP goes, I hate to channel Hillary Clinton, but what possible difference could it make which particular (imaginary?) human fathered which group of survivors thousands of years ago?

Are we really going to discuss bloodlines down through the ages, probably completely based on the feverish writings of people who likely were making it all up? What part of your brain is worried about such things? Maybe a thread about 'I worry incessantly about things that are pointless' would be in order. It's called perseveration if you want to start doing the research on that, and it's caused by not enough serotonin.

For some people around the globe bloodlines is the only language they know.
Instead of questioning the purpose of the thread, you should be contributing to the debate. If you think this thread is pointless; then leave.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Abednego
The covenant was established with Isaac in the passage you quoted (v19, v21).
Then it passes on by inheritance through Jacob- Genesis ch28 vv13-15

If the covenant was supposed to come by the line of Jacob then why forced it? It's look like Jacob's mother force the whole situation even knowing that God Himself told her that. (Even if we change the story allowing Esau to receive the blessing, still the word of God will still apply.)

Genesis 25
23 The Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”

Interesting to note that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob. Making Jacob the older of the 2 brothers; so who will serve who? (as soon as he get the birthright, he became the older brother)
In the meantime, God is watching the whole situation.

a reply to: Abednego
You're making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Esau was the original elder brother, so "the elder will serve the younger" means Esau will serve Jacob.
The later stories then show this being worked out. It is understood in the story that God foresees the end-result and approves.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Abednego
You're making it more complicated than it needs to be.
Esau was the original elder brother, so "the elder will serve the younger" means Esau will serve Jacob.
The later stories then show this being worked out. It is understood in the story that God foresees the end-result and approves.

**whispering**
I know, that's the idea to incite people to comment.

Mmmmm interesting....... I don't actually believe in the bible, but I find the whole living for hundreds of years thing intriguing and how dinosaurs grew so large and those others giant animals and giant humans but they are for another thread, but what I also found interesting in the snippet of the bible you posted, god said that Sarah will bear a child by this time next year , does that also mean pregnancy use to be 12months. a reply to: Abednego

a reply to: Abednego

The 12 Sons of Ishmael are well known in the Arab world because these 12 Sons are the progenitors of the "Arabized Arabs," who are today's modern Arabs. Ishmael's sons settled in northern Arabia and spread throughout the entire Arabian Peninsula, eventually assimilating the entire Arab world.

Muhammad, prophet of Islam, traces his lineage directly to Abraham through Ishmael and his son Kedar.

According to Islam, Abraham's blessing was a foreshadowing of the world-wide rise of Islam.



P.S.
I've been working on a thread that addresses some issues that may pique your interest. It should be completed in the next few days.

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Abednego

It's just a question of who is regarded as the immediate ancestor of the group, and Israel apparently looked first to Jacob.

So, basically Israel denied the covenant by using Jacob as the first link in the chain? If that is so, that will explain all the trouble they have right know. Not only that, by doing so they also neglected their cousins by the line of Esau (they don't have anybody serving them right know).

Well,.... Jacob's descendants are the Israelites, and Esau's descendants are the Edomites.