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Prostition, Laws, And Developmental Neuriobiology

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posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 09:27 AM
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originally posted by: grandmakdw
women in legal brothels have no choice.


Then working in a brothel is no better than working for a pimp. I don't advocate either one. I'm advocating legalization. The whole dynamic would change if it were legal and a woman could just go to another employer, who gave her a choice to refuse certain services.

This was in the heading of your source:



The Opinion Pages
Room for Debate


From the same source: Nevada's Legal Brothels Make Women Feel Safe

I don't know much about brothels, but I know quite a bit about prostitution in Phoenix, AZ. Not from an opinion page, but from the prostitutes' mouths.



This is not a "fun" profession or one most women would aspire to. Even if it were made the kind of fantasy you and other men think it could be, it is degrading both physically and mentally to women.


I am a woman. I am not advocating women go into this profession unless they want to. And I'm not advocating women work in brothels.



I have been to Amsterdam where prostitution is legal and walked the red light district. Bet you can't say the same.


Well, neener-neener.



"Good" prostitution is a male fantasy, the reality is normally quite ugly to behold and the consequences for the women in terms of their mental health, even worse.


I've experienced a different reality. I'm sure there are downsides to brothels and pimps, etc. But I'm not advocating that. You can work in Bloonmingdale's or Walmart and your experience is going to be as different as night and day.



Grow up BH. You often ask for sources, it gets tiresome.


I'm sorry I don't just take a complete stranger at their word. I'm sure it gets tiresome when you can't provide sources for what you claim...



Having been a PSY college professor for longer then you probably have been alive, I "just know" a great deal.


You've been a college professor for over 57 years??? Amazing! Having been a prostitute myself, I "just know" a great deal, too.



It gets really old looking up "sources" for you when you question what I say.


Then, perhaps you should provide sources for the claims you make. Then you won't have to be so frustrated when someone asks for proof of your questionable claims.




posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 09:36 AM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It is not up to me to provide sources to prove I am right.

It is up to you to provide sources to prove I am wrong. Go for it!


That is what I always told my students.

I gave a full letter grade above their final grade if they could prove me wrong.

Not the textbook, because they were always outdated by the time they got to print - takes 3 years from writing to print on average for a textbook.

I always respected a honored those students who could prove me wrong using original journal articles they researched themselves, that is a sign of great intelligence, courage, and integrity.

I have little respect for those who tried to call me out and could not (or would not take the time to ) prove I was wrong, that is laziness and arrogance.



edit on 9Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:45:03 -0600am112111amk215 by grandmakdw because: addition



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 11:04 AM
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originally posted by: grandmakdw
It is not up to me to provide sources to prove I am right.

It is up to you to provide sources to prove I am wrong.


That is called an "argument from ignorance". Shifting the burden of proof to those questioning your assertion is not logical.

Philosophic Burden of Proof



Holder of the burden

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true. This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the assertion, but is not valid reasoning.




That is what I always told my students.


Well, hopefully, they have learned better by now.

I just want to say that during the year and a half that I worked in several "massage parlors" in the Phoenix area, neither I, nor any of the women I worked with, ever did anything we didn't want to do, were ever attacked or forced, ever got a disease, and I never had anal sex and I was free to leave any time I wanted. It was a very pleasant, powerful and lucrative profession. That's why I'm so adamant about having it legalized.

Sure, there are women who feel forced into it or work for pimps on the streets, but that's not something I would ever have done.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 12:34 PM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The reason you can't prove my assertions wrong is because they are right. I didn't teach debate, I taught Psychology, Human Development. If a student did the research to try and prove me wrong (actually only happened 2 times in my career) - then they learned far more than if I had defended my position and told them I was right. Socratic method.

ATS is not a debate forum, it is a commentary forum, putting forth ones ideas. It is also not a teaching forum, I understand, but we each approach it from our own perspective, my perspective is the Socratic method, not debate and I will not debate so don't expect me to.

Anyway, read some of my earlier statements, I never said prostitution should not be legalized.

Read what I said it should be legalized if all health, safety, and psychological welfare conditions are met for the workers and for the clients.

The truth now is it is not legal and therefore quite hazardous to both worker and client. You know that is the current reality, not the future you want it to be. If all health and safety measures are taken, and if as a result illegal and unregistered prostitution is harshly penalized on the part of the Johns who solicit (not the prostitutes), then legalized, safe and "healthy" as you call it prostitution should take place. Until such time, it is emotionally and physically hazardous for the prostitute.

Truth be told, it will probably die out as a profession within 10-20 years as sex bots which are now quite realistic will replace prostitutes. Currently, only $12,000 will buy a good sex bot now with realistic skin. So in the quite near future this argument will be moot. (see a previous post of mine in this thread for links to good sex bots) Any lonely man who can afford a cheap car will be able to purchase his own sex bot and never have to worry about the current "underworld" again, or hope for legalization, he can have his very own customized prostitute, programmed to do his will and to his preferences in the comfort and security of his own home. They can also be programmed to "love" or at least show all the physical and verbal signs of love for their owner and the owner can have the unconditional love and all the sex they want, all for far less than paying a prostitute regularly.




edit on 12Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:50:29 -0600pm112111pmk215 by grandmakdw because: grammar and addition



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:05 PM
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have mercy,

The Legalisation of Prostitution : A failed social experiment
sisyphe.org...

recently I read,
Almost 36m people live in modern slavery - report
www.bbc.com...

Humans for Sale: UC Research Helps Raise Awareness of Human Trafficking
www.uc.edu...

Sex workers in Amsterdam: Legal, but still demeaning, disturbing and degrading
www.stanforddaily.com...



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:07 PM
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a reply to: grandmakdw
is there a male version?





posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:29 PM
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a reply to: grandmakdw

I have no fantasies about prostitution or prostitutes. I just know that when morality is legal, everyone benefits. When it is illegal, it makes second class citizens out of people who follow their urges or indulge in their habits. It destroys lives, and just ends up being lip service so that the government can say they are doing something. When in reality, they've just created a bigger problem than they started with. See: the war on drugs.

No matter how bad prostitutes will have it if prostitution is legal, they have it FAR worse with it being illegal. There is no arguing with that.
edit on 21-11-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:43 PM
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Sadly so many men and women that go into prostitution have had a history of sexual abuse when they were young, intimacy is a beautiful thing, doesn't sex lose something when it becomes a commodity?

Doesn't it lose the beauty, and do women just become objects, nothing more then the bots.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:46 PM
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I don't judge these women, but I can't for the life of me understand why other women would find prostitution OK or encourage it, especially feminist.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: Stormdancer777

I can't speak for women, because I'm not one, but it's not about encouraging it. It's about allowing it. It's about understanding that some people's circumstances drive them to do it for whatever reason. It's about providing protections and safety measures for the people in these situations. There is nothing wrong with encouraging these people to try to find other professions, but to straight up outlaw the activity is wrong and just creates more problems.

What's worse, your daughter grows up and becomes a prostitute; or your daughter grows up, becomes a prostitute, gets beat by a pimp because there are no worker safety guidelines, gets several STD's, and spends a lot of time in and out of jail (therefore negating their chances of ever doing anything else with their lives)?

Just because you would never want that or you wouldn't want that for your daughter isn't a valid reason to outlaw it. Some people's situations lead them there, and that is all they can do. It is sad, but it is true. To deny that is to deny reality.
edit on 21-11-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:54 PM
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originally posted by: grandmakdw


Truth be told, it will probably die out as a profession within 10-20 years as sex bots which are now quite realistic will replace prostitutes. Currently, only $12,000 will buy a good sex bot now with realistic skin. So in the quite near future this argument will be moot. (see a previous post of mine in this thread for links to good sex bots) Any lonely man who can afford a cheap car will be able to purchase his own sex bot and never have to worry about the current "underworld" again, or hope for legalization, he can have his very own customized prostitute, programmed to do his will and to his preferences in the comfort and security of his own home. They can also be programmed to "love" or at least show all the physical and verbal signs of love for their owner and the owner can have the unconditional love and all the sex they want, all for far less than paying a prostitute regularly.


I suspect the sex bots will only make real women that much more valuable. While the middle class guy may buy the sex bot, the very rich man will be willing to pay a lot more then $12,000 for a "real girl". It will be a status thing.

I knew a girl who was a high-price "escort" during college. In just two years, she made enough for all 4 years of tuition, a nice house and car, and lots of nice clothes. She was very beautiful, very smart, and very choosy with her clients. If I had a more outgoing personality, I would have done it.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 01:56 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777
I don't judge these women, but I can't for the life of me understand why other women would find prostitution OK or encourage it, especially feminist.


It's a great job for a feminist, because you are requiring payment for services rendered. It's the non-feminist who is willing to do it for free.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: kaylaluv

sigh, well does that go for the man too?

Two people in love?

Should love have a price tag?



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

You use the words circumstance and situation and that makes me sad.

Voices of Prostitution Survivors

soul-destruction.com...

Anyone here a prostitute?
Anyone here use prostitutes?



Once the Netherlands legalized prostitution, magically overnight the pimps, traffickers, and brutish johns all disappeared. They were replaced by managers, businessmen, and Richard Gere clones from Pretty Woman. Prostitutes lined up outside of government assistance offices to register as prostitutes, pay their fair share of the taxes, and avail themselves of all sorts of government services to make their lives better, especially after incidents now classified as “occupational hazards,” formally known as “abuse.” Why didn’t this utopian plan work? This is what occurs when fuzzy, feel-good policies are promoted in the face of common sense and the dark side of human nature. Julie Bindel, in the U.K. Spectator, exposes the ugly truth of this epic failure. Since the Netherland’s grand experiment began in 2000, Bindel points out that women are still abused, the commercial sex industry is expanding, prostitutes are not joining the government-funded union created to “protect” them (because they are “too scared to complain”), sex tourism is on the rise, women are being imported (read “trafficked”) into the country to meet the increasing demand created by legalization, children are being exploited in the industry, and only five percent of the women signed up to pay taxes “because no one wants to be known as a whore,” even if the government condones - See more at: www.cwfa.org...



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777
a reply to: kaylaluv

sigh, well does that go for the man too?

Two people in love?

Should love have a price tag?



Shrug. It often does. We really think that Anna Nicole Smith married that 80 year old billionaire because she really, really loved him?



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:50 PM
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so women being view as sex objects instead of equals is OK?

I guess I misunderstood feminism



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

OK,a mistress is another form of prostitution, I guess, yet they were married.

There was a long tread in this topic a while back, I asked the same questions, no one ever answered



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:57 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc
I have to agree with my libertarian minded friends here. Consensual prostitution should be legal and the majority of the hazards encountered by prostitutes exist because it is illegal and thus driven into the world of crime. In places where it is legal, such as Australia, there is regulation to ensure that there are no underage workers, health rules, retirement plans, healthcare insurance, unions, and the ability to seek redress from the authorities if abused or misused.



We agree again.

I support legal prostitution.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 04:05 PM
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this was the topic

War on Women Continues: UN Wants to Legalize Prostitution Posted on March 21, 2014 by SBrinkmann red light districtA panel of survivors of sex trafficking and prostitution confronted United Nations (UN) agencies and Amnesty International at the UN’s annual conference on women for trying to legalize prostitution. Reporting for the Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute (C-FAM), Lisa Correnti said members unleashed their outrage on agencies including the newly created UN Women for proposing that legalizing prostitution would provide safeguards for prostitutes and that many of the women who perform “sex work” do so by choice. Not so, said the panel, which was organized by The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) and took place just as diplomats were negotiating whether or not to refer to prostitution as “sex work.” “Natasha Falle, founder of SEXTRADE 101 said upwards of 95 percent want to exit but need assistance. Falle, a Canadian sex trafficking survivor, has helped hundreds of women escape prostitution,” Correnti reports. - See more at: www.womenofgrace.com...


Human Rights Groups Urge UN To Not Recommend Legalized Prostitution



t a “choice” Living on the streets, Rachel Moran became a prostitute when she was 15 years old, and says she sold sex in Dublin and other cities around Ireland for seven years, when she was finally able to free herself from the sex trade industry. Moran, who recently chronicled her experience working in the sex industry in a book “Paid For: My Journey Through Prostitution,” said that “Legalization is unethical because prostitution is a crime against humanity.” She added that “to legalize it is to socially condone this crime. It is my belief that countries which have legalized prostitution will, in the fullness of history, be held to account for human rights atrocities.” Ayesha is a survivor of the sex trade industry in India. She said, “When people tell me that women choose this life, I can’t help but laugh. Do they know how many women like me have tried to escape, but have been beaten black and blue when they are caught? To the men who buy us, we are like meat. To everybody else in society, we simply do not exist.” Alma, another survivor-turned-activist from the Philippines, agreed and said, “Society’s understanding of human trafficking and prostitution needs to change. “In my country, people believe that prostitutes are criminals and buyers are the victims. This is wrong … We need to change this thinking and educate young girls about the abuses of the sex industry, to let them know that they do have choices.

Women are human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.”



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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U.N. Commission Calls for Legalizing Prostitution Worldwide
www.abovetopsecret.com...

web.archive.org...:/www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/netherlands011218.html

The number of Dutch children working in prostitution has increased dramatically over the past five years: from 4,000 to 15,000 according to figures published by the Amsterdam-based ChildRight organization. Dutch police says the numbers are much lower, but acknowledges there is a big problem. This week, a major conference on the global child sex trade went underway in the Japanese city of Yokohama. Most children that end up in prostitution in the Netherlands are boys or young under aged asylum-seekers – particularly Nigerian girls. ChildRight claims this group numbers some 5,000 children. But recent years have seen a significant rise on the number of Dutch girls forced into the sex industry. Among them are an estimated 5,000 runaway or homeless children, many of whom are mentally retarded. Another large group (also 5,000) are ‘ordinary' Dutch schoolgirls, aged 13 or 14 from a "regular home environment" who are lured into prostitution by so-called "lover-boys".




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