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Prostition, Laws, And Developmental Neuriobiology

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posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 01:43 AM
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What do you think these 3 things have in common together? Well, prostitution has an "ancient" history - and it's supporters love to continuously remind us of this, as if stating the longevity of something somehow amounts to a moral defense. But anyways, I get ahead of myself.

What is the problem with prostitution. Depending on who you are and your interests, you'll likely get a different answer. Thus, I'll frame the question specifically designed to evoke your deepest values: if you were a parent, a father or a mother, would you want to daughter to grow up and sell her physical body for money in exchange for superficial sexual acts with ugly, foreign, old and for the most part, perverted-minded men? Is this what any parent could possibly want? I don't think it is.

So the next question is, why do some girls choose prostitution; and why are former sex workers, and people with an interest in legalizing this activity, so convinced that it is a respectable practice?

To understand why people do things, we need to understand something fundamental about the human mind. Our minds are mostly blank slates at birth. Or rather, we come with a basic 'soft assembly' of emotional systems like seeking, rage, care, fear, grief, play, etc, but these "feelings" have no meaning until we form our first relationships. It's relationships with other people which trains our biology to 'see' the world in a certain way.

Thus, in selling your body for money, much is implied in even the presence of a THOUGHT in your mind that makes this activity attractive. Why did it emerge? I sometimes ask myself, what did my parents do for me in setting up a certain 'feeling' about the world. For example, with my sister, imagining myself to be her for a second, I cannot fathom the possibility of selling my body for money. The whole idea is crude and degrading. What is it about this idea - prostitution - that makes it so bad? I think, fundamentally, its about who each of us are as individuals. Each of us is as "I". We are subjectively 'contained' within a body, existing with other bodies just like ourselves. Yet, although I see them, I can't be absolutely certain that they have a subjective view of the world like me. Nonetheless, that's a crazy thought; it is fundamental and necessary that I understand other minds like just as my own; so, when I relate with them, I better be sure to pay attention to their subjective reality - consider them as a "You" to my "I", instead of an "it" to my "I". The philosopher Martin Buber popularized this notion in his book "I and Thou".

The thing is, we relate to the world in ways that are categorized in our minds as 'object relations'. The mind has a biologically meaningful response to a particular 'object' in the environment; so that in our brains, the two concepts are intimately associated; when one occurs, the other follows. This is a law of neurological functioning. Brain states arise as associative networks.

With this in mind, we can return to the issue of prostitution. Prostitution is fundamentally motivated by the sexual lust of the John and the financial incentive of the prostitute. Both people in this deal operate superordinately (in their intention) with the other person as an object for their personal pleasure. Even though, lets saying during the act, they both feel each other emotionally. This embodied emotional 'togetherness' is defiled by the fact that the act is motivated by a egoistic "I will gain something" from this.

But this is just the object-orientation of the act. As said, no parent could imagine their daughter becoming a prostitute because the idea of offering your body - your very physical vehicle in this life - for sale to others reduces the individual "I" to an "it". The "I" is deciding that "it" - the body - is attractive and useful in the sex industry. Thus it goes through life with an extraordinarily focused intrapsychic conflict between its self and its body. Splitting the two while imaging she can both live this way and honor others as "thou's" to be respected.

I'm not sure of any epidemiological research into prostitution and developmental history, but I don't think it would be wrong to conjecture that trauma - abuse and neglect - was a regular feature of their early life. And hence, why as adults they can be so flippant towards the 'sanctity' of their physical body's.

As a moral issue, prostitution perpetuates a cultural pandemic hidden by past relational traumas. The prostitute and her interests are largely based in her own traumatic relational past experiences. In living as she does, she 'enacts' her inner reality. Having completely "renounced" the world and it's rules, she takes on, predictably, other issues: drug abuse, child abuse/neglect etc.

Finally, prostitution is only as old as capitalism. When the world became commoditized, so did people. When mankind 'left the garden of eden', of the ancient habits of the far more peaceful small-band-hunter-gatherer societies (SBHG), we began to objectify one another. Earlier habits, which had become completely normal for us, were now looked at as different; the mind could now be separated into Freuds "superego, ego, and id". The mind was split between its animal desires and it's communal interests. And the latter were seen as somehow "other" from what was regarded as the 'id'. In contrast, SBHG societies, not being motivated by any 'objective' gain, didn't really have any 'I-it' sensibility. Rather, the world and everything in it was animated by a oneness. So other people, the people they were with, were quite naturally felt to be members of a deeper oneness in which the "i" was apart. The community; the tribe. the group. Love; sacrifice; humor; not tolerating arrogance or narcissism; shaming abusers. These were the natural emotions that emerge from the large majority of small-band hunter gatherer peoples.

So should we want this, as a society? To legalize and sanction an activity fundamentally rooted in a "I-It" dialectic? Should we ignore the web-like connections between what we approve of and whats occurring within our own minds - as relics of our own buried past?




posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 02:16 AM
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I think you have a horse in this race, your use of language shows this.




somehow amounts to a moral defense / superficial sexual acts with ugly, foreign, old and for the most part, perverted-minded men? / The whole idea is crude and degrading / Prostitution is fundamentally motivated by the sexual lust of the John and the financial incentive of the prostitute / trauma - abuse and neglect - was a regular feature of their early life. And hence, why as adults they can be so flippant towards the 'sanctity' of their physical body's / Having completely "renounced" the world and it's rules, she takes on, predictably, other issues: drug abuse, child abuse/neglect etc


All of these comments show clearly your own fundamental aversions.

You have lumped everyone together making massively incorrect assumptions about ALL Prostitutes and ALL the men who use their services.

Perhaps before you condemn the rest of society to live in a world defined by your narrow views, you may wish to get out and about and find out the real reasons from both sides of the business.

Do you know for example that specialized prostitutes cater for those with physical and or mental problems that generally preclude them from a normalized relationship.

Do you have any idea how much money a prostitute can make in an environment where it is legalized.

I would say that you have no idea what is the real motivational factors from both sides of the coin.

In some societies, prostitutes are acknowledged as provided a valuable service to the community. You of course, can't see that because of a very narrow field of view.

What you have stated is more indicative of the model where prostitution is illegal and run largely by organized crime. Take the crime out of the profession and the changes are dramatic.

What you have described, comes I think, from a moralistic, probably religious background. Open up a little, live and let live. You also have not covered same sex prostitution and I wonder why.

P

edit on 20/11/2014 by pheonix358 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 03:13 AM
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what phoenix said.
i would be proud if my daughter chose that.
because she is my daughter and whatever she does is not wrong.

i have been a driver for girls, and I have to say, it was one of the best jobs I had.
but it burns you out (:



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 04:16 AM
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Is there a difference from marriage and prostitution besides the multiple partners?
I mean, if you think about it, we are all paying to play.
I would wager it is much more expensive to be married and provide a lifetime of support to another.
They both have their benefits. The important thing is choice. Some prostitutes really enjoy what they do.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 09:01 AM
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originally posted by: Astrocyte
if you were a parent, a father or a mother, would you want to daughter to grow up and sell her physical body for money in exchange for superficial sexual acts with ugly, foreign, old and for the most part, perverted-minded men?


Why do you assume the clients are going to be ugly, foreign, old and perverted? What's wrong with ugly, old or foreign men???

If it's what my adult daughter wanted to do, I would encourage her to be safe and choose her clientele carefully. I would be as involved as I possibly could to insure a safe and healthy outcome. I would do this with any profession she chose.



So the next question is, why do some girls choose prostitution;


For the same reason people choose any profession. The money, the appeal, the hours, being in business for one's self, and the ability to choose one's clients, etc.


and why are former sex workers, and people with an interest in legalizing this activity, so convinced that it is a respectable practice?


"Respectable"? Like being a lawyer or politician? Respectable is in the eye of the beholder. Only those who are eager to judge are going to think it doesn't deserve respect. I respect PEOPLE, not professions.

We all sell ourselves on some level. Engineers sell their minds, basketball players sell their physical prowess, models sell their looks... We all do it. Selling sex is the same thing.



Prostitution is fundamentally motivated by the sexual lust of the John and the financial incentive of the prostitute.


The John wants sex and the prostitute wants to sell it.
The homeowner wants a new paint job and the painter wants to sell it.
The designer wants a body for his clothes and the model wants to sell it.



As said, no parent could imagine their daughter becoming a prostitute because the idea of offering your body - your very physical vehicle in this life - for sale to others reduces the individual "I" to an "it".


Maybe in YOUR mind, not in mine... MANY people sell their bodies (their very physical vehicle in this life) for one thing or another. Some for strength, some for looks, some for ability, some for sex. That doesn't make the person an "it". YOU may judge them as an "it", but they are not.

I think people are generally "hung-up" about sex because of the force of religion in the world. They call it "morals" when really, it's just learned judgment. Animals aren't hung-up about it. Many people aren't hung-up about it.

I think if a person wants to sell sex, it should be their choice. It's all about freedom of choice, for me. No government should be allowed to tell me what to do with my body.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: okamitengu
a reply to: Mandroid7

The physical risks for prostitutes are quite high.

Although the profession may be "chosen", in reality it rarely is. It is normally because the prostitute feels there are no other options available. The prostitute is normally vulnerable and is "taken in" by a "mentor?" who profits from the relationship, many times in this world the prostitute is a virtual if not actual slave, and yes I have a problem with that.

Risk from sexually transmitted disease aside, as a given.

The prostitute has to fulfill frequently violent (due to the imprinting nature of TV, movies and video games on clients) acts which put the prostitute at risk for injury and or death. That is unacceptable as an "occupational hazard".

Prostitute males and females also run the risk of permanent injury to the sphincter muscles, it is not unusual for prostitutes to lose the ability to control their bowels from repeated damage to these muscles, later necessitating colostomy bags. Again an unacceptable "occupational hazard" from my old fashioned viewpoint.

So, I wonder if a parent would be proud and accepting if they thought about all the occupational hazards involved, disease, indentured servitude, slavery, temporary injury, permanent injury, death.

I have daughters and a granddaughter and would NOT be supportive of them choosing any occupation where it is routine and common to be beaten, degraded as part of someones fantasy, contract disease, be permanently disfigured and injured.

If it were legalized and highly regulated,

health documents required for both worker and client, updated monthly

condoms required

required clients searched for weapons,

forbidden to hit or in any way injure the worker

cameras with a guard watching monitoring sessions for the safety of the worker

client and workers must bathe with an antiseptic before each transaction

AND at the same time, illegal prostitution heavily penalized with mandatory jail for the john who seeks or uses an illegal prostitute -

Then I'd be ok with it as an occupation,

but honestly, not for my daughters.






edit on 10Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:29:49 -0600am112011amk204 by grandmakdw because: removed a sentence for ATS sensibilities

edit on 10Thu, 20 Nov 2014 10:31:20 -0600am112011amk204 by grandmakdw because: format spelling addition



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 10:12 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: Astrocyte
prostitution is only as old as capitalism.

Sorry. Not really. People have been trading sex for more food and better conditions or for protection for hundreds of thousands of years. Heck, even chimps and penguins do it ... trade sex for more food or for nest building materials info here . There are more scientific studies out there about chimps selling sex for food, but you get the idea. Humans have been doing it way back in caveman times as well. Females giving sex to stronger males to gain evolutionary protection during danger. It's just a part of nature.

That being said, I'm sure no one grows up thinking 'gosh I want to be a hooker', but many people DO this and some make a pretty good living at it. It should be legalized, regulated, and taxed - IMHO. It's a service that people can perform for others. And while I think it has a negative effect on those engaging in it, it's not my place to tell them they can't do it.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: pheonix358




I think you have a horse in this race, your use of language shows this.


It's called having an imagination. I'm a psychologist. I am not a prostitute nor do I have a daughter, nor do I know anyone who is a prostitute.




All of these comments show clearly your own fundamental aversions.


Actually, I couched my theory in a strictly secular i.e. psychological perspective. Hence, instead of invoking a god or a external 'rule', I simply asked a question, one that goes to the heart of each of our subjective realities: would you want your daughter doing this? The idea was to evoke the nature of the act; which I did; which, clearly, you do not have the emotional sensitivity to understand.




You have lumped everyone together making massively incorrect assumptions about ALL Prostitutes and ALL the men who use their services.


Really? If you're a prostitute, how much "choice" do you have? Chances are, many, many, of your customers will old men, unattractive men; foreign men. And likewise on the side of the John, what is really there? Do they even care - or would they bother to entertain the subtle, imaginative moral issues I have outlined above? Of course not! You have would to be a fairly educated person to know how developmental psychopathology forms: but those of us IN mental health, who are taking in the research from neurodevelopmental psychology, who see how essentially everything we witness as adults is a product of developmental construction, it's an interesting question. But obviously, as this thread shows, it seems to hit a soft spot for some people. Perhaps those people who - make use of "escorts"?




Perhaps before you condemn the rest of society to live in a world defined by your narrow views, you may wish to get out and about and find out the real reasons from both sides of the business.


LOL! You have so far said nothing. Aside from claiming I'm being "moralistic". Yes! Life is moral. I'm sorry if you don't notice, but, life has limits; our bodies have limits; our planet has limits'; and our minds have limits. And if we don't respect those limits i.e through conscious action - we induce pathology. As we can see in our planet; as you are demonstrating by refusing to even acknowledge what entire fields of scientific research - attachment theory, developmental psychology, anthropology, developmental neurobiology - have to PRONOUNCE on this issue. It is very much an issue: they have more right to speak than you do. If you're only defense is, and you've shown: "dont tell me what to do!" - this is precisely the issue.

John + Prostitutes make the practice a reality. It is made as it is not only by the girls unfortunate enough to enter this field, but by the sex-starved, emotionally frustrated men who have built their lives around having sex with younger women.

I suppose I underestimated the conservative emotions of the people at this site. What I've just written would 'hit' most thinking people as worthy of thinking about.




What you have stated is more indicative of the model where prostitution is illegal and run largely by organized crime. Take the crime out of the profession and the changes are dramatic.


I am also aware of this sanitized response. As to what you wrote earlier about sex-workers providing service for the disabled? I have heard of that, and that does complicate my position. But in no way resolves the moral grayness of what prostitution essentially amounts to.

Again, I am speaking as a psychologist - as someone 'attuned' to the emotional and pyschological events which shape our individual realities. Why does one girl become a prostitute and not another? There is a deep emotional issue here. How do you relate with your body? What is the significance of the sex-act for you?

My opinion is that it is wrong. Not because of any "thou shalt not" - if you understood the object-relations position and how our brains essentially work this way this would be easier for you to understand; or to at least get that: most people with non-traumatic upbringings, raised by 'good-enough' parenting, wouldn't consider a life having sex with strangers as attractive; why? Because the alternatives are so much more attractive.

Finally, underlying this society we have, and the capitalistic culture at large, is a profound dearth of 'self-regulation'. What you call 'morality', and try to give a religious twist towards, I call 'training your subcortical and brainstem areas to follow the directive of the prefrontal cortex'.

Our ability to direct our attention is the ONLY thing about us that is not deterministic. In fact, the 'reptilian brain' is set by the early years of life for a particular 'feeling' state with the world. This "baseline" becomes the point from which the developing cortex reacts against. A bad upbringing will force some mental acrobatics; externalizations (defensive narcissism) or internalizations (intense shyness; recluse; anxiety;dissociation). The baseline contains the 'primal memories' of life.

So, as said, I'm just considering what must have happened for this option - sex work - to be seen as attractive. Underlying the whole practice, obviously, is a lack of self-regulation and a lack of life-fulfillment. The girls need the money (and they can pepper their practice with all sorts of a-posteori meaning, as I know some of them do) and the johns are frustraingly horny; and they too, some of them (those who aren't abusive; hence the 'need' for pimps to protect the prostitute) treat the escort with respect.

But as to your question of legalization. Even then, do you think anyone would promote that? I can't think of a single voice in mainstream science - besides radicals on the fringe - who would overlook the developmental traumas of early life that made this career option palatable, in favor of a true, moral approval of what prostitution amounts to.

Should it be legalized? I don't even think I addressed this question. The reasons for the actions are wrong; self regulation is more primary, for me, and actually for the whole shebang - the whole system we share and inhabit - then promiscuous indulgences.

That said, I know that escorts are greatly exploited. From pimps; from agencies. They're treated as expendable commodities. Would legalization make this lifestyle better for them? It would. Should we do it? I'm on the fence about it. But, I think I am confident enough in my definition of whats healthy - since it is backed by science - that I don't think legalization would amount to a 'promotion'. And I think, as we fix some of the underlying issues - parental neglect, abuse; and other traumas which curtail development - prostitution would likely never be seen as an attractive career option.

Again. People who are 'defenders' - much of them former prostitutes and johns themselves - like to ignore the developmental conditions that led them to where they are. I do not doubt the personal growth they've undergone: but this growth happened THROUGH the lens of a life that brought them into that industry; and so they were forced by circumstance to discover the salvagable meaning in the act.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: okamitengu

LOL! That's funny man. Most parents do not share your - high brow - sentiments.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 11:18 AM
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originally posted by: grandmakdw
The physical risks for prostitutes are quite high.


Many professions have high risks. race car driver, construction, rescue workers, truck drivers, football players, electrical workers... The list goes on. The good thing about prostitution is that the alleged dangers can be almost entirely prevented.



Although the profession may be "chosen", in reality it rarely is. It is normally because the prostitute feels there are no other options available.


Do you have a source on this?



The prostitute has to fulfill frequently violent (due to the imprinting nature of TV, movies and video games on clients) acts which put the prostitute at risk for injury and or death.


They don't have to do anything they don't want to.


it is not unusual for prostitutes to lose the ability to control their bowels from repeated damage to these muscles, later necessitating colostomy bags.


Uh... Source?

As you have shown, most, if not all of the risks could be overcome.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 11:26 AM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Prostitution, just like drugs, comes down to morality and the government has no business legislating morality. It's as simple as that. People don't listen to morality laws and when you make a moral topic illegal, you just harm the people involved even worse because you force them to deal with an unregulated and dangerous black market.

If you have a problem with your daughter being a prostitute, then teach her not to become a prostitute. Instill your values into her. Don't let the government do it for you. It's that simple.

ETA: In any case, cut the appeal to emotion fallacy out of your debate. Asking people if they wouldn't want their daughters being prostitutes distracts from the real issues. The danger of prostitution being illegal vs being legal.
edit on 20-11-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 01:30 PM
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I have to agree with my libertarian minded friends here. Consensual prostitution should be legal and the majority of the hazards encountered by prostitutes exist because it is illegal and thus driven into the world of crime. In places where it is legal, such as Australia, there is regulation to ensure that there are no underage workers, health rules, retirement plans, healthcare insurance, unions, and the ability to seek redress from the authorities if abused or misused.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic




VIOLENCE IN PROSTITUTION ...Threatened with a weapon:

78% Physically assaulted: 82% Raped: 82%

Current or past homelessness: 84%

As a child, was hit or beaten by a caregiver until injured or bruised: 49% Sexually abused as a child: 65-95%



As for legal prostitution:




Women who worked in Nevada's legal brothels said they were like prisons where you have to turn tricks.

Rimmed with high-security fencing and an electronic gate, they can look like a detention camp.

The women live in lockdown conditions and can't leave the premises unless they're accompanied by a male pimp.


Living and working in cramped, dark rooms, they're on call 24 hours a day.

This is what happens when the law protects people who profit from commercial sexual exploitation.

It’s the ideal business model. It's the best way to get a woman to turn as many tricks as possible.


www.nytimes.com...




POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER People most likely to develop PTSD: PROSTITUTEs, PORN STARS, rape victims, battered women, childhood sexual abuse, a person experiencing psychological or physical torture, ... and WAR or COMBAT EXPOSURE . ... Prostitution is MULTI-TRAUMATIC whether its physical location is in clubs, brothels, hotels/motels/john’s homes, motor vehicles or on the streets.

There are women have said that they felt safer in street prostitution compared to legal Nevada brothels,
where they were not permitted to reject any customer. ...
Also reported there was no difference in the incidence of PTSD in the two types of prostitution,
suggesting that the trauma that results in prostitution is the same for ALL who are in it.


Every time you say, “Those girls like what they do”– pick up a “porn: magazine, watch a “porn” video, click onto that website, call that lady of the night, listen to music that degrades women (most hip hop) or go to that bachelor party, strip club, know this: It could be your sister, your mother, your best friend’s girl or even your daughter—and then think, is it all really worth the “thrill” of self gratification that lasts only a couple minutes?

You are destroying lives of countless women while you do it—feeding the monster the sex industry has become. And now YOU are part of it too….for there must be ENABLERS to create VICTIMS.


www.savethewomen.ca...





In the USA
“Who are the victims of domestic sex trafficking?”
Minors are deceived, manipulated, forced, or coerced into prostitution every day.
Nationally, the average age at which girls first become exploited
through prostitution is 12–14 years old
,
but direct service providers around the country report they have been encountering increasingly younger victims over the past decade ... For example, service providers in New York City report that the average age that girls enter prostitution has dropped from 14 to 13 or 12 years of age in recent years.... The average age that boys and transgender youth begin prostitution is even younger: 11–13 years old ...


aspe.hhs.gov...





I used to work on the GI/GU floor. I had this patient that had a colostomy in one quad of his abdomen and a large scar where he used to have another colostomy in another area of his abdomen. Come to find out later that he had the first appliance because his anal sphincter was ruined from having sex and the first colostomy was ruined the same way.


allnurses.com...





risk factors for anal cancer include: Anal sex – People participating in anal sex, both men and women, are at increased risk.


www.fascrs.org...





Anal sex much like any other form of sex should be consensual and pre planned. There are consequences to this sex act as it can cause irreparable damage to the sphincter muscle and the lining around the anus. Dr. Drew Pinsky has spoken many times stating that active anal sex can eventually lead to one having to wear a colostomy bag as the sphincter muscle no longer has the ability to contract and that the bowel will move without anything to stop it from excreting it's matter. The fact of the matter is the sphincter muscle was designed to retract muscularly from the inside out not vice versa. When the anal cavity is expanded over and over, that muscle will tear and fizzure and cannot like a leg muscle, be exercised back into its former shape and strength. In the most basic of terms, once its gone, its gone for good.


www.examiner.com...




edit on 3Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:26:05 -0600pm112011pmk204 by grandmakdw because: format



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 03:56 PM
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What's with the fascination with anal sex? You do realized that consensual sexual partners in committed relationships also have anal sex, right? You do realize that many, if not most, prostitutes have "Greek" off the menu, yes?

Several of those links do not even mention prostitution as a cause for the dreaded anal sex injury. The man from the all nurses website was most likely a gay man. I'd guess that you also think being gay is an abomination because of all of the evil buttsexx.

Methinks that you don't really understand what really goes on and the varying issues that do or do not apply.
edit on 20-11-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2014 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: grandmakdw

I asked for a source on two statements that you made. You said:

1. Although the profession may be "chosen", in reality it rarely is. It is normally because the prostitute feels there are no other options available.

2. it is not unusual for prostitutes to lose the ability to control their bowels from repeated damage to these muscles, later necessitating colostomy bags.

Your post didn't source either statement. Instead, you talked about violence in prostitution (without a source), women working in brothels, minors in sex-trafficking, and the risks of anal sex.

When talking about legalizing prostitution, I am not talking about working for a pimp or in a brothel. Prostitutes do not have to do anything they don't want to do. If it were legalized, it would have the same legal protections that any other profession has. They could choose their clientele and would probably have a regular client base, just an many other professions have.

You must think men go to prostitutes for anal sex... I don't know why you think that. If the prostitute doesn't do anal, she just says that up front. SHE makes the rules. She's not a victim to a bunch of lowlifes.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 06:32 PM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I gave you sources. Especially for anal sex, and women in legal brothels have no choice.

This is not a "fun" profession or one most women would aspire to. Even if it were made the kind of fantasy you and other men think it could be, it is degrading both physically and mentally to women. To think otherwise, is when men think with their libido rather than their brains, for men, normally the irrational libido wins out over rational thought when it comes to issues like sexuality.

I have been to Amsterdam where prostitution is legal and walked the red light district. Bet you can't say the same. The women there, where it is legal and "women have choices" is as awful as the legal brothels in Nevada. Women are hemmed in by their brothel, most of which appeared to be so seedy that I'd be afraid of catching a disease just walking in the door.
And Amsterdam has the "best" laws for prostitutes in the world right now.

Prostitution is not the male fantasy of "fun" for women. "Good" prostitution is a male fantasy, the reality is normally quite ugly to behold and the consequences for the women in terms of their mental health, even worse.

Grow up BH. You often ask for sources, it gets tiresome. Having been a PSY college professor for longer then you probably have been alive, I "just know" a great deal. It gets really old looking up "sources" for you when you question what I say. I think you do it just because we rarely agree, so get over yourself.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: grandmakdw

Really? Where do you teach and where have you published?

I've been around the world and, as a volunteer doc to everyone, including sex workers, I see your hysteria as bs and want to see some bona fides.

You find anal sex horrible--do you want to ban homosexuality ?

Boxers and football players beat each other into brain damage. Do you want that illegal as well?



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 06:52 PM
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You make the assumption that everyone has the same values that you do, but that is the first place your argument falls apart.

I have no kids, and even if I did, it wouldn't change my own opinion of prostitution: it should be legalized, regulated, and monitored. So, if my daughter wanted to become a prostitute, and we lived in a society where it is not only legal, but well regulated and managed, and safer, then no, I would not have a problem with her becoming a prostitute. If that is what she wanted. Obviously, I would not want to hear the dirty details of her job, but otherwise, no. I'd only have a problem with it if it was still illegal. Why? Not because any artificial, alien "morality", or because I have respect for such laws. My concern would be for her health and safety. Because when prostitution is illegal and the women have to turn to the streets, that is when the problems arise. They are at risk of being preyed upon by pimps, johns, rapists, and murderers, a higher chance of catching a disease, of being attacked, plus legal harassment. These things would not be an issue in a legalized state, where such problems could be eliminated or reduced considerably.

So if that is what my daughter wanted to do, more power to her. Besides, I'm sure you support marriage, which is the world's longest standing prostitution racket. And historically, women who were courtesans or prostitutes in societies where such activities were an institution, fared much better than married women did. So in a sense, my daughter would probably be better off as a prostitute than being married. At least prostitution is honest and realistic.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 07:07 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc
a reply to: grandmakdw

Really? Where do you teach and where have you published?

I've been around the world and, as a volunteer doc to everyone, including sex workers, I see your hysteria as bs and want to see some bona fides.

You find anal sex horrible--do you want to ban homosexuality ?

Boxers and football players beat each other into brain damage. Do you want that illegal as well?


Navy Doc, how do we know you are a real Doc? Where did you go to Medical School? What year did you graduate? Where did you rank in your class? I want to see some bona fides.


FYI, I taught at 2 major state universities, one prestigious private university and several community colleges (following my military spouse around - so I never got tenure - I wrote one book, edited a large number of textbooks, and wrote a number of articles) which is all the personal identifying information I will give so don't ask for more,

and really, don't give me your personal identifying information either, that probably violates T&C.

I don't want to ban homosexuality,
I could care less what 2 consenting people do in the bedroom.
If a man or woman over the age of 18 choose freely,
without compulsion to be a prostitute,
that is his/her business,
but that does not negate the emotional and physical hazards she/he will face.


I just think prostitution is not the "glamour" profession men like to fantasize about.

It is degrading to both the male and female prostitutes and I won't address this further,
because no mater what the fantasy of men who use -
use is the operative word-
use them, it is using someones body for ones own pleasure -
disregarding the other body that is being used.

John's are selfish and are purchasing self gratification and must "pretend" that the prostitutes are getting as much out of it as they are. And you know deep down that is true.

As for anal sex, when I taught human sexuality, this was one area that people often chose to ignore as a physical hazard to both males and females. It is not unusual for a receptive partner to lose control of the sphincter muscles for the rest of their lives. As a Doc, you should know it.

I felt when I taught human sexuality it was my duty to teach not only the "fun" parts,
but also to educate about potential hazards.
Especially ones with lifetime consequences, such as AIDS, genital warts, herpes
and yes loss of sphincter muscles.
Don't you as a Doc feel it is necessary to point out the lifelong physical consequences of some sexual behaviors?


Whether or not I "approve" of anal sex is not an issue, the issue is a physical, medical issue and one that should be openly discussed.

Football and Boxing are not comparable to prostitution.
In prostitution the prostitute is simply a live masturbatory object for the end user.
The others are sports, I do not consider prostitution a sport, although some may.

I never said I wanted it illegal, read my first post,

if all the safety conditions are met

and the prostitute is free to come and go

and to choose whom they will or will not service -

if ALL those conditions are met -

much like the padding for a football player -

and the referee for football and boxing -

then it isn't my business to object to the profession becoming a legal one.


However, don't pretend that it is not a hazardous profession both psychologically and physically.



P.S. Navy Doc - see U2U







edit on 7Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:37:29 -0600pm112011pmk204 by grandmakdw because: removed stuff for ATS sensibilities



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 08:51 AM
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The truly smart prostitute will save up money and purchase :


Japan already boasts the world’s most advanced sex dolls from firms such as Kanojotoys or Orient Industries based in Tokyo. Around £6,000 buys the very superior Yasuragi 'dutch wife' sex doll with extras such as movable eyes and flexible fingers and a skin texture its makers say is indistinguishable from the real thing. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... re-near-you.html#ixzz3JiMld42k Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Then worries about personal safety and medical problems will disappear and all they will have to do is maintain and clean.

Their meaning to the John is the same as the Yasuragi doll, and the hazards far less to the intelligent prostitute.



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