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Evolution is a farce: Evidence

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posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: Logman

Dude, he's a Brit. That makes it ten times worse.




posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:04 AM
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originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Logman
Hilarious videos. Wow, people that believe in the literal word of the bible actually exist. People actually believe the world is 6000 years old. In the 21st century, and not in tribal Pakistan, but in America.

Not much difference between ISIS and these jokers if you ask me. If they were born in Yemen they'd be slicing off heads in Syria right now.


Or we could say atheist evolutionists are no different to communist dictators who plunged their society's into total chaos.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler was an evolutionist who considered Jews Gypsys etc, undeveloped humans. I can go on.

Your comments show a side of ignorance that mirrors those you portray as your own.

It was atheists guided by their beliefs in evolution that killed many many millions.

Your comments are really sad, sad based on arrogance and superiority, what caused so many deaths
.
You are no different to those in Isis


Hitler was not an atheist FYI. Not by any stretch of the imagination.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:07 AM
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originally posted by: skalla
a reply to: Logman

Dude, he's a Brit. That makes it ten times worse.


Whats wrong with being from this side of the pond? Unfortunately this is another thread that is falling into flame between Christians and Atheists. Both sides fighting a corner they believe to be right but cannot even consider the other may be right. I mean; why even worry about the OP when you can spout more hate!

Concentrate on the video ladies and gents, prove or disprove don't just insult each other because then I will get involved (more)...and I will get banned...and I like this site!


originally posted by: tavi45

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Logman
Hilarious videos. Wow, people that believe in the literal word of the bible actually exist. People actually believe the world is 6000 years old. In the 21st century, and not in tribal Pakistan, but in America.

Not much difference between ISIS and these jokers if you ask me. If they were born in Yemen they'd be slicing off heads in Syria right now.


Or we could say atheist evolutionists are no different to communist dictators who plunged their society's into total chaos.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler was an evolutionist who considered Jews Gypsys etc, undeveloped humans. I can go on.

Your comments show a side of ignorance that mirrors those you portray as your own.

It was atheists guided by their beliefs in evolution that killed many many millions.

Your comments are really sad, sad based on arrogance and superiority, what caused so many deaths
.
You are no different to those in Isis


Hitler was not an atheist FYI. Not by any stretch of the imagination.


Not in public, but he did question belief in god in private so 50/50 on that.
edit on 3005America/Chicagokamb2014201448America/Chicago by thekaboose because: REASONS!



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:12 AM
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a reply to: borntowatch

Well bad people come in all colours and forms...
It's still ignorant, your answer to his actually pretty funny and true statement. It is the 21th century and America has the most believers in this creationists BS, which is just sad, if you think about it. The only ones still thinking they have to send missionaries out in to the world: Americans.
I don't mind believing in God, do that myself, but why does eveybody else have to believe the same thing? The problem are doctrines of all sorts, if people just blindly follow the thoughts and imaginations of others, without thinking for themselves. Something more common with creationist, than any other faith.
It's really very close to ISIS... Closer than any atheist ever would be...
There is abeautiful thread here somewhere, about the divided by race thing is just a myth. Like it, or not, we're related with every monkey, pig and even plants. We all descend from bacteria... 90%+water, that's what we are like a gourd...



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:26 AM
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a reply to: borntowatch

have you forgotten the crusades?

in case you have, it was a torrid little affair, wherein religious nutters who thought their brand of superstitious bronze-age mysticism was the greatest s**t since FIRE, killed anywhere between one, and three MILLION, over religious beliefs and locations....



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:29 AM
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a reply to: borntowatch

Come on man, I know you're better than that! We can agree that many people have killed others for many reasons and whatever their beliefs were they felt justified in some way shape or form. You mention Hitler as an evolutionist but he was also a Catholic. I understand many Christians don't consider the Catholics as "true Christians" but that ultimately comes down to semantics. You can't really deny that religious fundamentalists on any side will go to extreme lengths for their beliefs. That makes Logman's comment more understandable does it not? I know we both have differing opinions in regards to the Bible. But I would hate this thread to devolve into a "he said, she said" type of argument. You and I both know the reality is people are capable of horrific deeds. Whatever they feel their motivation is. And whether or not it is justified is a matter of perspective. I do not know if you fall into the young Earth creationist category or not. But I would like to think that you do not. Those beliefs are archaic. While you and I don't agree on the subject of Christianity I have not considered you one to ignore or deny that which is evident. By that, I mean the fact that the Earth is far older than 6,000 years, and evolution. Neither of those things has to disprove your beliefs by the way. If anything they should give you a deeper appreciation for the mechanisms you attribute to God. Understanding the beauty of life, whatever you may attribute it to, is an awe inspiring thing. Let neither of us let those who abuse that understanding get the better of our emotions.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:40 AM
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a reply to: thekaboose

It's worse that he's a Brit as we don't have anything like the same proportion of Christian Fundamentalists/Creationists over here, and it's generally more acceptable to be both Christian and understand basic science here in the UK than in the US.

Sadly, due to the internet and it's spread of Bunk this kind of crap is spreading over here, and I'm that ashamed my fellow country folk (and indeed, iirc the OP is even from my home town) buy this rubbish.


edit on 19-11-2014 by skalla because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 05:42 AM
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Can't say as I come into this believing in one side of the evolution vs creationism debate.
Can't I just believe in both? I mean believe in evolution and God.


I believe life or all living things evolve and change because they have to in order to adapt to their everchanging surroundings and new technology, Adapting is real. Some species do not take to adapting, thus will become extinct. Others put up a fight and cling to life and thrive. those dinosaurs might not have perished if given enough time to adapt to extreme temperatures. Or they were just wimps. Polar bears don't freeze to death in the middle of eating their dinner!

I've only watched one video so far. So my comment might not make sense.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 06:14 AM
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originally posted by: violet
Can't say as I come into this believing in one side of the evolution vs creationism debate.
Can't I just believe in both? I mean believe in evolution and God.


I believe life or all living things evolve and change because they have to in order to adapt to their everchanging surroundings and new technology, Adapting is real. Some species do not take to adapting, thus will become extinct. Others put up a fight and cling to life and thrive. those dinosaurs might not have perished if given enough time to adapt to extreme temperatures. Or they were just wimps. Polar bears don't freeze to death in the middle of eating their dinner!

I've only watched one video so far. So my comment might not make sense.


Theres nothing wrong with believing that at all, there is nothing wrong with anyone believing in anything to be fair. Its just when people approach the table spouting "truth and proof" of one side or the other in which contains nothing helpful what so ever and then refuses to engage in a civil debate.

There many sides, everyone has the choice which they choose they should not then force it upon others. That's just not cricket.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 06:31 AM
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Arguing against a religious point of view, aimed at convincing people the Earth is a few thousand years old, we lived side by side with dinosaurs, etc, etc,...Is a waste of time. You have either not looked at evidence to the contrary or ignored it. Man did not magically appear, along with all the animals and fishes. I know your faith says different, but the definition of faith is belief without proof.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 06:33 AM
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originally posted by: thekaboose
Its just when people approach the table spouting "truth and proof" of one side or the other in which contains nothing helpful what so ever and then refuses to engage in a civil debate.


especially when their stated purpose for starting said thread is to "prove that your religion is wrong"....that's a BOLD statement, with a VERY substantial burden of proof, and an EXTREMELY high standard of evidence....given that all he gives us is opinion, and youtube vids, clearly, he's not up to the task..
edit on 11-19-2014 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 06:42 AM
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Has anyone not seen this site: An Index to Creationist Claims.

The claim of "man lived with dinosaurs" should be CHP 710. The response is a nice one, as usual.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 06:48 AM
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originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Logman
Hilarious videos. Wow, people that believe in the literal word of the bible actually exist. People actually believe the world is 6000 years old. In the 21st century, and not in tribal Pakistan, but in America.

Not much difference between ISIS and these jokers if you ask me. If they were born in Yemen they'd be slicing off heads in Syria right now.


Or we could say atheist evolutionists are no different to communist dictators who plunged their society's into total chaos.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler was an evolutionist who considered Jews Gypsys etc, undeveloped humans. I can go on.

Your comments show a side of ignorance that mirrors those you portray as your own.

It was atheists guided by their beliefs in evolution that killed many many millions.

Your comments are really sad, sad based on arrogance and superiority, what caused so many deaths
.
You are no different to those in Isis


What absurd lunacy. Bief in evolution is not what guided any of the above named despots. It was their own mania and lack of regard for anyone who disagreed with them or stood in the way of their desire for absolute power. And
then there is your incorrect notion of the religious proclivities these insane world leaders. Mao write often of Fod,
Goddesses and Heaven in his poetry and personal writing. Stalin went to seminary and studied to become an orthodox priest, Pol Pot was a Buddhist and Hitler was a pretty devout Christian. What you are stating here is a most excellent example of what is known as "The False Cause Fallacy" basically stating that all of the above mentioned were brutal, violent atheistic Dictators who used evolution to support their atrocities therefore all who believe in evolution are likewise heinous human beings by not accepting your personal version of god. The irony of your own hypocrisy for callin out another poster for having a viewpoint of arrogance and superiority is bafflingly amusing.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: tavi45



Hitler was not an atheist FYI. Not by any stretch of the imagination.


actually there is strong evidence he was a atheist. he was born and raised as a Catholic, but later when in adulthood he quit going to mass.

there are quite a few views on his belief. most that i've read say he was a atheist. although he did seem to support Christianity in public, he would slam it in private. many say he just used his Christian childhood as a political tool.

here are but a few from the wiki, cause it's fast. if you look it up you find that most found him to be at best a pagan,( not knocking them just for reference)and even that is doubtful. many say that he was fully convinced that science was the future of the world.


Kershaw wrote that few people could really claim to "know" Hitler, who was "a very private, even secretive individual".[29] Hitler's Table Talk has Hitler often voicing stridently negative views of Christianity. Bullock wrote that Hitler was a rationalist and materialist, who saw Christianity as a religion "fit for slaves", and against the natural law of selection and survival of the fittes



Laurence Rees concludes that "Hitler's relationship in public to Christianity - indeed his relationship to religion in general - was opportunistic. There is no evidence that Hitler himself, in his personal life, ever expressed any individual belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[20]



Hitler's intimates, such as Joseph Goebbels, Albert Speer, and Martin Bormann record that Hitler was deeply hostile to Christianity. Ian Kershaw wrote that, while Hitler would occasionally tell his inner circle that he wanted to delay the "church struggle" out of political considerations, his inflammatory remarks gave his underlings license to intensify it.[28] In 1945, his sister Paula was recorded as having stated "...I don't believe that he ever left the [Catholic] church. I don't know for sure."[77]




When one thinks of the opinions held concerning Christianity by our best minds a hundred, two hundred years ago, one is ashamed to realise how little we have since evolved. I didn't know that Julian the Apostate had passed judgment with such clear-sightedness on Christianity and Christians. ... Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry.... and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore—of a whore and a Roman soldier. The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galilean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him. Paul of Tarsus (his name was Saul, before the road to Damascus) was one of those who persecuted Jesus most savagely. — Adolf Hitler, per transcript appearing in Hitler's Table Tal



The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity. — Adolf Hitler, from Hitler's Table Talk (1941–1944)



What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now [Himmler] wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may, some day, be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave... — Adolf Hitler quoted in Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich


all from the wiki,Religious views of Adolf Hitler

no if he believed in any God, that would been himself.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 07:50 AM
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originally posted by: borntowatch
Or we could say atheist evolutionists are no different to communist dictators who plunged their society's into total chaos.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler was an evolutionist who considered Jews Gypsys etc, undeveloped humans. I can go on.

Your comments show a side of ignorance that mirrors those you portray as your own.

It was atheists guided by their beliefs in evolution that killed many many millions.

Your comments are really sad, sad based on arrogance and superiority, what caused so many deaths
.
You are no different to those in Isis


Haha how typical and desperate....

Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler didn't kill those people because they weren't in your club anymore than they killed those people because they all wear socks.

Not being in your club/cult and accepting the truth of evolution does not lead you to do anything other than increase your knowledge of the world around you.

Can you provide any evidence or proof that not being in your club and accepting evolution leads to genocide? or even a bad mood?....



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 08:24 AM
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originally posted by: hounddoghowlie


And here are some quotes from Hitler affirming his Christianity-

“Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.” [1] ~Adolf Hitler

“We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out” [2] ~Adolf Hitler

Hitler was a Christian. This undeniable fact couldn’t be made any clearer than by his own confessions. Yet, I will not merely present you with these testimonies, as damning as they happen to be on their own, but I also intend on furnishing you with a brief history of the inherent anti-Semitism of the Christian religion. I will do so to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that Hitler and his Christian Nazi Party were acting in complete concordance with traditional Christian anti-Semitism.

To begin, here are just a few of Hitler’s Christian confessions:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” [3]

“The greatness of Christianity did not arise from attempts to make compromises with those philosophical opinions of the ancient world which had some resemblance to its own doctrine, but in the unrelenting and fanatical proclamation and defense of its own teaching.” [4]

“His [the Jew’s] life is of this world only and his mentality is as foreign to the true spirit of Christianity as is character was foreign to the great Founder of this new creed two thousand years ago. And the Founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of His estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews…” [5]

Over and above these solid testimonies, there are other equally strong pieces of evidence that indicate that Hitler was a Christian, like the fact that his soldiers all wore the slogan, ‘Gott Mit Uns’ (God with us) on their belts, that his birthday was “celebrated from the pulpits until his death,” as Hitchens so eloquently put it, and that the Nazis published their own slightly revised Christian bible. [6]
Read more at www.liveleak.com...



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 09:12 AM
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a reply to: borntowatch

*cough* Crusades *cough* Inquisition *cough* All other "holy wars" and subjugation of people "in the name of Christ" throughout history

As for Hitler, no one really knows what he was. There is strong evidence that he was Christian (to include self proclamations of that fact), but many actual actions that he took or hearsay comments made to others under his command that show otherwise. Regardless, I highly doubt that he was atheist, but if he were a Christian, he had a funny way of showing it.

As for the rest in your list, you must understand that the belief in zero gods does not an evil person create--if someone is evil, there are much deeper issues that what you purport to be the cause. Atheism is not a cause of evil, it's just a rejection of supernatural gods. One can still be as kind, loving, moral and decent as those who fear a god--we just do it without being given the ultimatum of eternal damnation. I would say that our personalities are more genuine, in this instance.
edit on 19-11-2014 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: Grimpachi

had to have been a pretty big lizard if he thought it was worth calling a dragon. or maybe he was a very small fellow.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 10:54 AM
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a reply to: peter vlar

hitler was playing the people. plain and simple. you don't take over a christian nation by coming in and saying there is no god.

here in the mans words taken from a book he called Hitler's Secret Conversations , and in Britian called Hitler's Table Talk.
the book was it was checked for accuracy by martain bormann you do know who that was don't you.


Martin Bormann
Martin Bormann was a prominent official in Nazi Germany as head of the Parteikanzlei. He gained immense power within the Third Reich by using his position as Hitler's private secretary to control the flow of information and access to Hitler. en.wikipedia.org


the review of the book.


This intermittent transcript of the Fuehrer's table talk, six months, a month, ten days at a time, 1941-1944, is the record, corrected and approved by Martin Bormann, covering every topic under the sun -- a monologue of beliefs, projects, opinions, personal history, intimate interpretations and ideas. It is preceded by a long introduction by H. R. Trevor-Roper on The Mind of Adolf Hitler which is a further investigation of the genius, as such, that was the man. The details of the table talk offer many illustrations and material to underline Trevor-Roper's points and amplify previous analyses and portraits rather than extend or deepen them. The combination of the essay and the conversations has greater appeal for the student -- of psychology and modern history -- than the general reader and for purposes of reference and close examination this ""official"" record will have its value. Publisher: Farrar, Straus & Young


and just a few quotes from the book.



The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States. All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941: National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday: Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday: The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night: The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday: Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight: Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday: Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner: There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday: It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Hitler admits public statements are hallucinated to persuade and have no bearing on truth. these are private statements Hitler made. Atheists quote his public statments which sound Chritian in places. But I argue there were political lies callculated to hoodwink the masses. What did Hitler believe about public statments and propaganda? He tells us:

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)


no hitler may have been born and raised, baptized as a Catholic. but he turned from it and his views and action support this.
like i said, you don't take over a christian nation, by coming in saying there is no God. he played to them and was slowly turning them from Christianity.

but you go on and keep on believing he was.



posted on Nov, 19 2014 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

As Grimpachi mentioned, some monitor lizards living today can grow to extremely impressive lengths. While the Komodo Dragon at 10+ feet long is the most famous of these monitors, New Guinea is home to the Crocodile Monitor which can grow as big and larger than the Komodo. There are verified reports by western scientists of 13 ft long and 200 lb specimens with the rare 15 footer and natives of New Guinea claim that they can grow up to 19 or 20 feet. One of the most impressive things about the crocodile monitor is that they are one of a very few species of lizard with a mammalian trait, the ability to breath and run at the same time making them very deadly hunters. They are also arboreal and I can imagine a 10-12 foot long lizard coming out of a tree in an attempt to dine on its prey giving rise to dragons being able to fly. Though I'm speculating with that last piece, it isn't an entirely unreasonable thought.

And they are just the largest member of the monitor family currently living. In Australia there once roamed another relative if these ferociously large beasts called Megalania that measured 27 and possibly up to 30 feet long. They are thought to have gone extinct 30 KYA and there are occasional reports of them or something nearly as large still roaming the outback. Even if modern reports are over exaggeration a or just plain hoaxes, they were still most definitely around when humans made their way to Australia. Definitely not an animal I would prefer to encounter, especially 40 KYA with nothing but stone weapons to defend myself with.



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