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Russia demands guarantees over Ukraine from NATO

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posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 06:55 PM
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originally posted by: victor7
Silovikis know what real plans of the West are when it comes to Russia. Russia has had two terrible experiences with 2 recent weak leaders: Gorbachov and then Yeltsin. One lost the whole country and other was drunk when whatever leftover was being looted and people being beggared.


Yes, the Silvoki's "know" it's all the West's conspiracy. Yes, taht's right, the SIlvoki's KNOW that somehow Russia's poverty has NOTHING to do with the lies of Communism and the overwhelming corruption of its OWN powerful people, most especially Siloviki's. No, not even possible.

Same baloney as what spews forth from Mugabe and Hugo Chavez.

Riddle me this: why is Poland doing so much better than Belarus? Why did former communist East Germany do better when reunified? Why did EVERY formerly Communist state which gave up that paranoid Russian attitude and instead join the West do better? All an evil plot?

Why would Ukraine possibly want to choose the Belarus direction instead of the Poland direction?

What's depressing is why Russians would want to choose that direction.


edit on 20-11-2014 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-11-2014 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 07:14 PM
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a reply to: mbkennel

Some truth in your statements. Internal corruption, wealth in few hands, inefficient implementation of new western type programs etc. have a lot to do with Russia's problems. No doubt!!

However, western designs are no saintly either.

Russian leadership needs a very balanced approach and not blame all the problems on the external factors.

I would not compare Poland with Belarus. This because, Belarus is the last model of Soviet system still alive today.

Comparison of Poland with Ukraine before Feb 2014, is more practical.

One reason I heard attributed to Polish "somewhat" success is that "there is and was no mafia" in Poland. Compared to Ukraine, Poland had much less corruption and importantly common borders with Germany, which is European economic powerhouse.



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 07:51 PM
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originally posted by: victor7
One reason I heard attributed to Polish "somewhat" success is that "there is and was no mafia" in Poland. Compared to Ukraine, Poland had much less corruption and importantly common borders with Germany, which is European economic powerhouse.



There's the other fact that Poland entirely and profoundly rejected the Russian mentality and did everything possible to join EU and NATO.

The fact that Ukraine had so much corruption and poverty was the primary reason most of its people (and especially in the Western part) were enraged when Yanukovych welched on his campaign promises and gave up on a done deal with EU, and instead signed with Russia. It was apparent that Y. was a corrupt loser being paid by Putin. Note that it was Russia who wanted to probhibit Ukraine from signing an agreement with Russia, but the EU wasn't upset if Ukraine signed with Russia, as long as they also fulfilled their promise to sign with EU.

If you were living in Ukraine, which future would YOU want for yourself? What Poland got, a path towards a semi-prosperous, stable democratic country, or a satrap of Putin, ruled by a corrupt flunky dictator and subservient to Russia's "interests"?

Kyrgyzstan a great role model?



posted on Nov, 20 2014 @ 08:37 PM
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a reply to: mbkennel

The only benefit of joining EU is that general people can go to 28 countries and find employment and better standards of living.



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 02:19 AM
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a reply to: victor7




The only benefit of joining EU is that general people can go to 28 countries and find employment and better standards of living.


And that's a bad thing?



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 03:45 AM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: victor7




The only benefit of joining EU is that general people can go to 28 countries and find employment and better standards of living.


And that's a bad thing?



How much work do you think there is in the rest of Europe ?

You do know the official unemployed figures are a big joke in countries like Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, etc.?

Unemployment is a fiction (Belgium)

Google translate :



The RVA unemployment rate is 14 percent and the overall unemployment rate clocked off at the end of 2012 more than 26% of the active population! In other words, 5 million active people hang around 1.3 million of benefits off. "A huge number of good shows that the forced inactivity in Belgium a structural phenomenon, suggests contrary to the official unemployment rate does." And those figures are also once an underestimate because Houben in the absence of clear statistics suspended unemployed no longer knew. Indeed, it figures that are comparable to those at the time of the Great Depression in the '30s.


Link doesn`t work, put h in front of it

ttp://www.solidair.org/index.php?id=1340&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=37888&cHash=3751de231c2df31b44f2a16eb42da107

And this is from `97 !



Phillippe Naert began on April 18, they function as a professor of business economics at Tilburg University. His public speech gave a revealing picture of the employment policy in the European Union. He starts his own country: Belgium; officially there for 11 to 13 percent of the workforce is unemployed. "If, however, long-term unemployed on benefits, temporary opposites partially- and older to work through government programs and early retirement parameters added to the official figures, then Belgium has about 23 percent of the unemployed '

Hundreds of thousands of unemployed in the official statistics disappeared in other countries. The remarkably affordable rates in the Netherlands (6.2 percent) and Britain (6.1 percent) are no good. The real unemployment in both countries is three times as high (according to van Wijnbergen, the new Secretary-General on Economic Affairs in our country 25 percent and years of wage moderation to nothing to reduce that unemployment). Spain France, Germany and Italy provide the same gloomy picture. The problem of unemployment is higher in Europe than in the black thirties. Phillippe Naert: "We find ourselves in a society with a few haves and many have-nots'.


Source


edit on 21 11 2014 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 21 2014 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: mbkennel

The only benefit of joining EU is that general people can go to 28 countries and find employment and better standards of living.


And that political and economic forces will tend to reduce corruption and drive towards a more ethical government and business policy, and give more individual rights to people.

Of course it's far from perfect, and Ukraine isn't going to turn into Denmark overnight. But being Brussels's bitch is far more pleasant and prosperous than being Putin's bitch. And that's why the protests started when Yanukovych bent over for Vladimir.

It's no small matter at all, it determines the entire future of their country.

Everybody except Belarus and Russia learned the lesson from the Cold War: join the West and be a normal European country and you will thrive. Russia herself had that chance, but no they chose Stronk Shirtless KGB Man. They act just like the resentful German militarists after WW1, blaming everybody else ("stabbed in the back" theory) and seeing dastardly foreign plots and lovingly worship their new Alpha Asshole. Ended very poorly before.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: mbkennel

Poland has profited from a growing EU, but the situation is whole lot different now regarding the EU and it won`t change the upcoming time.

I would have agreed with you if it was the 90s or early 21th century, but with EU and World economy being in the shape which it is, EU is heading for Japan style at its best for the next decades to come. So Ukraine doesn`t have the same benefit as Poland had.

Italy has lost 25% of their industrial production during the crisis and it still hasn`t come back, and than there are countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece and even France now who have serious difficulties. If the situation miraculously would improve, those countries would be in the front seat of getting it and not the Ukraine.



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 02:51 PM
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US just gave a guarantee that it will act if any power attacks a NATO country..........even if the aggressor is Russia.

Breedlove also mentioned before that "Little Green Men" scenario that was played out in Crimea will be taken as an act of war and responded with.

www.interpretermag.com...

During a visit to Latvia this week, Victoria Nuland, US assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, said that “when NATO and the US as part of NATO took new members into the alliance, this means that we are ready to participate in the defense of the security of these countries, and this means that we are ready to give our lives for the security of these countries.”



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