Omnivore rage!!!

Originally posted by duh squared

I don't want it fed to me either. Its like turning on the tv, don't let it brainwash you, but its okay to see whats there... or peacefully ignore it. But why you wanna shoot the TV?? You may feel foolish afterward.


Look at organizations like Farm Sanctuary- they are 100 percent peaceful, as well as many other animal advocates/groups are. They don't throw blood on you or send you poop in the mail.
They invite people to a nice farm to play with pet chickens, sheep, cows, pigs etc. All rescued animals that came in from slaughter houses, abuse/neglect, factory farms etc.

I think you are making sense to me now. You don't want confrontational people pointing fingers at you. Me either. You like animals and you know that if you really looked at the conditions of which meat comes from you'd be in for a bad time.

Its good to check in on the facts such groups expose, so you don't have to go investigate yourself. Its called being an informed consumer. (Sorry to tell ya, but you may be very angry about the livestock treatment if that's something you care about.)

No one is trying to "convert" you. But you do seem to care deep down. Theres a book called Diet for a New America, no PETA involved... Don't read it if you don't care to. However, you have the title if you ever care to do some research.

You do your thing Samhain, but its rather childish to become so antagonistic towards all things animal rights related. I don't think anyone is too concerned about your lifestyle here, so you can relax.

I just like to argue.
I'm not angry,you make me sound like rush limbaugh.

Originally posted by Samhain

It stands to reason Samhain, if herbivors were so dumb, they would not avoid predators nor attemp to protect their young. They would simply die out very quickly as dinner for carnivors and then carnivors would have nothing to eat! then carnivors would starve and die! Common sense!

it is common sense,the cycle of life.
lot of rabbits,wolves eat like kings.
rabbit population dwindles.wolves thrive.
rabbit population gets too low to sustain wolves,wolves starve and die.
Lots of rabbits again.
rinse and repeat.
Which is why humans disrupt eco systems,we kill all other predators,we dont want competition,and prey animal numbers get too large,requiring we hunt.look at deer,if we didnt hunt them,there would be deer everywhere.

Now your making sense Samhain. I agree with the above statement excepting the bit about "requiring we hunt" if an animal population becomes larger than is sustainable, nature takes care of it via starvation. Its natural. We do indeed interfere too much and upset the normal ecological balance.

Samhain-
Well, I suppose its also been a rough couple of days on ya. All my metal head friends have been super pissy/bummed too

Too bad I am the wussy vegan sort who doesn't enjoy much fighting... Which I guess brings us back to square one...

You two guys do know that your talking about animals and animals arent smart. A wolf is smarter then a dear. Wolves plan attacks where it includes the entire pack. That takes some cunning. The only thing the dear has is staying with other dears and hope some other guy gets eaten and not him.

Originally posted by instar
So given the extent of meat consumption today we should have huge heads and be so advanced by now we dont need to eat anymore! Pffft!

c'mon give us scientific facts. meat is scientifically, medically proven to be unhealthy. Btw some primates eat meat aswell, why are they not increasing brain size?

[edit on 10-12-2004 by instar]

I will give you some links but much of this information can be found very quick with google.

This is a quote from a UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet.

"Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton."

"By eating meat, early humans were able to sustain their lifestyle, which was active and social, but not to the extent of expending more energy than they took in through food, said Milton. "

Humanity's appetite for animal fat and protein is probably more recent. It was some 2.5 million years ago that our hominid ancestors developed a taste for meat. The fossil record shows that the human brain became markedly bigger and more complex about the same time.

For starters, meat provided a concentrated source of protein, vitamins, minerals and fatty acids that helped our human ancestors grow taller. The first humans were the size of small chimps, but the bones of a Homo ergaster boy dating back about 1.5 million years suggest he could have stood more than 1.8 m as an adult. Besides building our bodies, says Emory University's Dr. S. Boyd Eaton, the fatty acids found in animal-based foods would have served as a powerful raw material for the growth of human brains.

Because it's so packed with nutrients, meat gave early humans a respite from constant feeding.

But hey if you know more then these scientist please tell us were they are going wrong.

www.time.com...
www.berkeley.edu...



[edit on 11-12-2004 by ShadowXIX]

You two guys do know that your talking about animals and animals arent smart. A wolf is smarter then a dear. Wolves plan attacks where it includes the entire pack. That takes some cunning. The only thing the dear has is staying with other dears and hope some other guy gets eaten and not him.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom !

shadowxix, thanks for intresting link, you prove your point, however this discussion is relavant to today, not thousands of years or millions of years ago. I think the point being made was that today it is no longer nessesary and unless its organic, naturally raised meat, often unhealthy, particularly given consideration of preparation methods also, i.e fats etc etc.

How in the hell can you not look at and smell a Medium Rare 20oz sirloin and not feel love? When they buldozed the foundation for the house you live in, did you run around picking up all the deposed nightcrawlers and crickets, or did you watch them get murdered and realize that being a higher mammal means being able to enjoy the diet your body is designed to eat. Tofu and beans for my protiens? No Thank You. I like using my Bicuspids and Canine teeth to tear right into medium rare seaks like this one...

Alot of animals eat meat, we humans are omnivores, always have been. Do you get upset when you watch a lion tackle and devour an antelope? Do you get angry when you see a snake unhinge it's jaws to swallow a squeaking mouse? No, probably not, because your mature enough to understad that that is the way the world functions right? Well, don't give me any flak for eating my 20oz sirloin, it beats beans any day.

Edit: Adding following rant...
Food prices are high enough, now, beacuase of the lobbying from animal rights fanatics (yes I said fanatics), we now have meat packing and livestock companies that go through rigorous standards like air conditioning for chickens, individualized quarters for cows to live in. and other ridiculous notions. We the meat eaters pay for this, and it's sickening to me to shell out 8 or 9 bucks a pound for my steak cause you guys can't stand to know that some animals eat other animals... Hell have you ever seen how Kosher animals are treated?


[edit on 11-12-2004 by twitchy]

You have a point instar it is not as important today. People that eat only plants now have other ways to get good protein that our ancestors didnt know about or have access to. Like eating beans and rice in the same meal tofu,soya milk, and various other things you cant eat.

Plus the meat we eat today is often much less healthy I would think with cows having hormones and steroids pumped into them that cant be good.

On a side note about early man having a increase in brain size Evidence shows that humans started to make use of costal resources during that same time. That means having meat like Fish and shellfish which are very healthy forms of meat.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by ShadowXIX]

When they buldozed the foundation for the house you live in, did you run around picking up all the deposed nightcrawlers and crickets, or did you watch them get murdered and realize that being a higher mammal means being able to enjoy the diet your body is designed to eat.

Twitchy im dissappointed in you. ive admired some great post of yours, why this silliness?

Well, don't give me any flak for eating my 20oz sirloin, it beats beans any day.

Whos giving you flak for enjoying your sirloin? not me.

Food prices are high enough, now, beacuase of the lobbying from animal rights fanatics (yes I said fanatics), we now have meat packing and livestock companies that go through rigorous standards like air conditioning for chickens, individualized quarters for cows to live in. and other ridiculous notions. We the meat eaters pay for this, and it's sickening to me to shell out 8 or 9 bucks a pound for my steak cause you guys can't stand to know that some animals eat other animals...

Bit of a broad generalisation Twitchy. I put the onus on you to prove the cost of your sirloin is due to better conditions for animals. Im sure if you look into it, youll find plenty of reasons why meat and other foods are expensive. Why are clean healthy conditions for food animals a ridiculousnotion? please explain. Im sure the healthier the animal the better for you, yes? filthy conditions breed disease.
Why are you on the defensive? whos attacking you?
edited to add: No nature dosent bother me at all, I agree its quite natural, but the poster is not talking about animals, hes talking about people. Im an not a lion or a snake, I enjoy the freedom to choose what i will eat and to choose what i dont want to eat. I dont force my personal prefrences on anyone.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by instar]

Originally posted by instar

Originally posted by Samhain

Now your making sense Samhain. I agree with the above statement excepting the bit about "requiring we hunt" if an animal population becomes larger than is sustainable, nature takes care of it via starvation. Its natural. We do indeed interfere too much and upset the normal ecological balance.

Well,it's either hunt,or reintroduce predators in the wild.which sounds like a good idea,until a jogger gets eaten,or a small child gets mauled.
Where i live,we have TONS of deer.keep their herds trimmed,or you have them in the streets getting killed by cars,causing $$$$$,and in your yard,eating your grass till it all dies,driving your dogs crazy all night.
i remember a few years ago some town in up state new york had to hire hunters to trimm the herds.they were causing all kinds of havoc,one jumped through a womans sliding glass window in her living room.

And yes,i miss dimebag darrel very much.i dont think most people realize how big a talent he was.
METAL!!!!

Oh I agree with that Samhain if populations are near human habitat causing havoc, yes indeed. I was referring to wild habitats though mate, not near human habitation, not reason to interfere.

Instituting standards for cleaniness is one thing, air conditioning for chickens and music playing to comfort livestock is another issue though. Yes I know this isn't the only cause of high food costs, but it certainly isn't bringing them down either.
I don't mean to sound defensive, my love for a well cooked steak drives me to post that way.
I had it out with a vegetarian once who was talking to me like I was some murdering fiend for praising a good steak, and the only thing I could think of was my god, pity for animals is fine, but which animals? Is ti any more humane to jerk a thriving potato plant out of the ground, chop it up into strips and fry it in hot oil? Or to illustrate my point, a more extreme example, Is it murder to have a tape worm removed? Every day in the news I hear of somebody getting dragged off to jail for violating animal rights laws, and that really gets my goat somehow. Yes folks should treat their pets with common decency, but involving the legal system is incredible to me. In the morning when I watch dogs scattering my trash all over mine and the neighbors yard, I have to worry about bouncing a rock off their head now because the neighbor might be an animal rights nut. I don't know, something about the whole animal rights issue really makes me mad, and the harm inherent here is that one day I am going to be watching the news as the guy that operates the neumatic hammer at the meat packing plant is on trial for genocide, then my steaks will be gone...

Potato's have feelings too!!!!!

Twitchy your right. Alot of these vegetarians say they dont want to eat meat because they dont want to kill their food. WELL last time I checked plants were living things to. Airconditioning for chickens? How about getting air conditions in schools for June and september months. I cant believe some of the things those animal rights people do. They care more about animals then people.

Twitchy, yes there are some fanatics and extremist who arnt worth listening to. I agree. You can find atleast one in any thread almost, about any subject. These folk just detract from the reasonable issues folk want to discuss. They give anyone remotly mentioning anything about the same issue a bad name and folk dismiss the more resonable and logical folk as fanatical extremist aswell. Sad.
I think aircondition for chickens might be due to the extremly crowded conditions in battery hen buildings. If you've ever been cramped in a crowded room, lift or even a bus, particularly in hot waether, you will appreciate how hot it gets. with that in mind, without any releif (air conditioning) many chickens subsequently die during hot weather. these places are huge, like thousands of chickens per shed. There is not enuff time for people to find and remove dead animals, hence they rot and spread disease. So from a purely health driven POV i find this is not too unreasonable. I dont like to, too closely consider where my chicken has come from. Imagining it coming from a small cage complete with dead birds and piled high with chook Sh*t, doesent improve my appetite!
p.s. yes music is a little loopy imho. no music out in the farmyard!

[edit on 11-12-2004 by instar]

Originally posted by instar
Twitchy, yes there are some fanatics and extremist who arnt worth listening to. I agree. You can find atleast one in any thread almost, about any subject. These folk just detract from the reasonable issues folk want to discuss. They give anyone remotly mentioning anything about the same issue a bad name and folk dismiss the more resonable and logical folk as fanatical extremist aswell. Sad.
I think aircondition for chickens might be due to the extremly crowded conditions in battery hen buildings. If you've ever been cramped in a crowded room, lift or even a bus, particularly in hot waether, you will appreciate how hot it gets. with that in mind, without any releif (air conditioning) many chickens subsequently die during hot weather. these places are huge, like thousands of chickens per shed. There is not enuff time for people to find and remove dead animals, hence they rot and spread disease. So from a purely health driven POV i find this is not too unreasonable. I dont like to, too closely consider where my chicken has come from. Imagining it coming from a small cage complete with dead birds and piled high with chook Sh*t, doesent improve my appetite!

p.s. yes music is a little loopy imho. no music out in the farmyard!

[edit on 11-12-2004 by instar]

You make a good point, but i still say kids in schools need aircondition more then chickens.

I agree with that too croat56 , my kids school has few airconditing units and they swelter in summer here. I guess it comes down to whos paying when it comes to any issue.

Yeah one thing that really got me angry was once when i walked into room that had all these computers and there was an AIRCONDITIONER ON. I asked the nun why do the computers get aircondition and not us! She said some technical mumbo jumbo whatever. I guess ever since then ive been making it my own personal crusade to go and get aircondition.

Chickens need ovens not air conditioners. I like fried chicken not iced chicken

You might not care about the welfare of animals, but do you care about humans? Your planet?
Your selfish desire to eat meat creates so many world wide problems for Humans, including starvation, damage to the planet by clearing forest to graze livestock.
The simple fact is that to produce 1 lb of meat, it requires over 16 lbs of grain and many gallons of water. Millions of animals are breed for meat production. If they were not bread and the vegetation used to feed people we could end world hunger.
The UN estimates that 840 million people are suffering malnutrition to the point where their health, productivity and life expectancy are impaired.
Studies in 2002 indicate that 20,000 individuals die each day of hunger-related causes. While we munch down on mad cow burgers someone somewhere is suffering, directly because of that burger.

www.webcom.com...

www.worldhunger.org...

www.thp.org...

Here are some answers to some of the veggie urban legends;

www.animalliberationfront.com...

Good on you croat56, that is appalling when a school will install airconditioning in a pc room and not for students. why not talk about the issue with other students and put it to the school. Good luck mate. I hope you get airconditioning. Why not organise your male freinds to sit in the classroom and take off their shirts and refuse to wear them for day, as a form of non violent protest? might just work.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by instar]