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If God knows the future then no one has free will

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posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:44 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

And?

God is all powerful and that means what precisely? If He chooses not to demonstrate His power in obvious ways, then that negates Him?




posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18
Yes, exactly. God can do what we could only do with "time-travel".
As I observed in my first post,there might be other reasons for arguing that God can control our lives if he wants. I'm not going to get into that.
All I'm saying is that "he can see our future" is not one of those reasons.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:06 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: bluloa



We get to decide our fate but we are bound by the limited outcomes. What God sees are the choices we can make.


This would mean that god doesnt know the future because the future depends on the actions we make.


no, it would mean God knows all the possible futures, what future you choose is your free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18




Let's say god knows im going to shoot and the day comes where I do shoot him. Was that really my choice or was that action supposed to happen since god already knew that i would do it?


Not only did god know what you were going to do but he manipulated history that led to you doing that when he spoke to one person over another smashed one civilization over another etc, etc.

It is the butterfly effect. God put the things in motion to make you do what you did being the all knowing deity he is.

Like I said no free will according to abrahamic religions opposite of what they claim as far as free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:27 PM
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God is a super duper freaking genius, times a million. This helps him predict propabilities to a T. And he is omnipresent whicb means he exists in all space and time. So he's in the future, or infinite possible futures, so whatever choice you make, there He is, already waiting for you in the future you chose. If you had made a different choice, He would be there waiting for you too. So he's watching you from the future. Whichever future you Choose for yourself. Omnipresent. You choose a possible future and all the other infinite futures that could have been are... maybe destroyed? Or maybe preserved so there is another you out there, an infinite number of you's, dealing with the cause and effect of the choices they made.

Another possible way, is that god knows there are infinite possibilities, and so he knows your future because he knows about all of the possibilities, so no matter which one you choose, he was aware of it as one of the infinite possible futures. He doesn't HAVE to know which one you will choose, because he already knows how the story goes for ALL possible futures... like he is the DnD Dungeon Master, or like a teacher who gives you a quiz and holds the answer sheet... if that makes any sense at all......... O.o



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:41 PM
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This has probably already been said but I don't have time to read all the posts.....

God is outside of time, actually if you want to get accurate GOD is the Black Hole in the centre of this Universe. It/He created everything ( won't go into the how ) and I will tell you the why. This massively dense body does not experience time as we do beyond the event horizon ( hence the term ) and 1 hour there is the equivalent of about 100000 years here on Earth. so from the relativity point of view you live and die in the blink of an eye to the Super Black Hole.

The SBH is actually the process behind this thing I call "The Infinity Experiment" which in simple terms is a Universe designed to produce every single combination of possibility, we're given hints all through out our written history but the style our ancestors wrote with ( personification ) tends to confuse people. Like "The only way to Heaven/God is through his Son", well the Son is actually the Sun and how this works is by gravity.

Your energy/lifeforce is drawn towards the Sun and captured there after you die as its the largest body in our Solar System and when it collapses eventually in a few billion years and in another few trillion drawn back into the Super Black Hole for processing. Your Soul is actually a "Magnetic Resonance" which stores all your experiences and its possible you won't get drawn back into the Sun until you have achieved several lifetimes of experience so Reincarnation is more than likely a "Respawn" until you reach a Master like level of experience.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:54 PM
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Man has a will.It is the mechanism of consciousness that percieves desires and makes choices however it is not free of cause and effect.Every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause.Every choice has a multitude of causes and effects that are completely out of the control of the person.In other words a person chooses what they chose according to their nature and character through the causes and effects they've experienced ..the final outcome is ...man does not have a will free of cause and effect….No free will.

This is the common malady of all humans from atheists to stout religious believers.They intrinsically “believe” they do have free will because they perceive they make “their own choices” without perceiving the multitude of events that caused and effected those choices.However the fact is it is impossible to make any choice free of cause because EVERY effect has a cause.In other words every thought and action is in a very long chain of causes ad effects and none are the originators of “The cause” from the very beginning.

None “caused” their inception.None caused themselves by their will to grow in their mothers womb through the stages of conception and be born.When you are born there begins a new chain of causes and effects that you “experience” because that is mankinds “nature.The amalgamation of all of a persons experiences form their belief in faith of “their” Belief System religion.Everything a persons “perceives is “through” their perception of “belief”.They make all of their choices “through” their perception.However the second they were “born” into this “world” they become a “cog” of all the chain of events in this world.In effect none of it is independent of a multitude of causes and effects that were already present before they entered the world.

In effect a persons “experiences” cause the choices made which form a persons “character” through their “belief/religion” nature.A person “desires and chooses” by their will however it is NOT free of cause and effect which means a person can only “act and think” according to their nature and character(their name).To believe you have free will is like believing you can pick yourself up by your own bootstraps(as the saying goes).In other words a will free of cause is a delusion.A person can only desire and choose according to their nature and character.

The creator God is completely aware of all of these factors.They perceive what you cannot perceive because they are NOT You and more significantly you are not the creator God.Only the creator God has will free of cause and effect.That is why Yahoshua said not “my will be done but yours”.The creator God does not and cannot “exist” in this realm (the physical material realm).They do not “experience” Life(spirit) the same way humans do in the material realm…and of course it cannot be “known” what the creator Gods existence is... it can only be known what it isn’t(the physical ream).

You can curse the creator God for creating a world of chaos and violence however humanity is only acting according to “their nature and character”. The creator God is not “forcing” humans(and ALL of creation) to do anything they are just “living” according to their nature.Mans idealized perception of the existence(or non existence) of the creator God is completely skewered and flawed viewed through the lens of a will free of cause and effect.

The fact is it doesn’t matter if you “believe” you have a will free of cause and effect for it to be (or not be) true.However it will greatly effect how you “perceive” life…thy will be done.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 05:58 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Tangerine

And?

God is all powerful and that means what precisely? If He chooses not to demonstrate His power in obvious ways, then that negates Him?



If God is all-powerful, he created people to do exactly that which he wished them to do because, being all-knowing, he could not not know what they would do.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282

Man has a will.It is the mechanism of consciousness that percieves desires and makes choices however it is not free of cause and effect.Every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause.Every choice has a multitude of causes and effects that are completely out of the control of the person.In other words a person chooses what they chose according to their nature and character through the causes and effects they've experienced ..the final outcome is ...man does not have a will free of cause and effect….No free will.

This is the common malady of all humans from atheists to stout religious believers.They intrinsically “believe” they do have free will because they perceive they make “their own choices” without perceiving the multitude of events that caused and effected those choices.However the fact is it is impossible to make any choice free of cause because EVERY effect has a cause.In other words every thought and action is in a very long chain of causes ad effects and none are the originators of “The cause” from the very beginning.




All humans? I just said free will is an absurdity.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 07:38 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
If someone knows what decisions we will make, who we will marry, what will happen to us, when we will die, etc then it suggests that we dont have free will. We are just experiencing the life we are supposed to have.

This would only apply to those who believe god has a "divine plan" and/or knows the future.

If god knew who you would marry and you married that person then you never had that choice. But if you chose someone else then god doesnt know the future.

if god knows the future then more questions would come like the tree in the Garden of Eden when god "tested" Adam and Eve or when satan was created.

But my question is how could we have free will if god knows our future or already planned everything out.


In Computer AI with a game like Chess, Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, you can get the computer to look ahead by looking for all possible valid moves, taking each one in turn then seeing what the game board would look like after the move was made (this is called a "ply" in AI terms). This can be repeated for as many moves as possible until the final outcome is certain. The computer may know the future and who wins or loses, but you still have the choice.

It would be more accurate to say God knows all possible futures.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 07:46 PM
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originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: danielsil18
If someone knows what decisions we will make, who we will marry, what will happen to us, when we will die, etc then it suggests that we dont have free will. We are just experiencing the life we are supposed to have.

This would only apply to those who believe god has a "divine plan" and/or knows the future.

If god knew who you would marry and you married that person then you never had that choice. But if you chose someone else then god doesnt know the future.

if god knows the future then more questions would come like the tree in the Garden of Eden when god "tested" Adam and Eve or when satan was created.

But my question is how could we have free will if god knows our future or already planned everything out.


In Computer AI with a game like Chess, Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, you can get the computer to look ahead by looking for all possible valid moves, taking each one in turn then seeing what the game board would look like after the move was made (this is called a "ply" in AI terms). This can be repeated for as many moves as possible until the final outcome is certain. The computer may know the future and who wins or loses, but you still have the choice.

It would be more accurate to say God knows all possible futures.


That is not all-knowing. All-knowing implies knowing that which the player (or creation) will do.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:00 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Tangerine

And?

God is all powerful and that means what precisely? If He chooses not to demonstrate His power in obvious ways, then that negates Him?



If a creator is all-knowing he (duh) knows everything including exactly what his creations will do because he created them to do it. He can't not know that which he knows. As for negating him, I don't believe there is a him. The all-powerful/all-knowing stuff is a Christian belief. I am simply pointing out that it negates the absurdity of free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:00 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DISRAELI



He DOES know what you are going to do, even though it depends on you, because he can see NOW the situation in which you have ALREADY DONE it.


He would know the two outcomes, but he wouldnt know which outcome would happen because that would depend on me.


Oh, so God is not all-knowing after all. I see.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: danielsil18
My point is that god doesnt know whats going to happen because that depends on me.

He DOES know what you are going to do, even though it depends on you, because he can see NOW the situation in which you have ALREADY DONE it.
Just as I can see NOW the end-result of all the battle decisions that King Charles "will" make, even though they are still in "his future" and depend on himself.

You can try the experiment yourself. Go to a novel. Read the end first. Then read through the book, and you wll find that you know the "future" of the characters, even though you're not controlling what they do.
"Knowing" and "controlling" are NOT the same thing.


Uh..but God wrote the novel, so to speak.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:03 PM
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originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DeadSeraph

How could time play into it?

Nvm, read my reply to Disraeli. I think you have the same point as him.


Again, even in your example, time does play into it, since God is outside of time. He already knows which decision you're going to make, because he sees the past, present, and future all at once (being omniscient and outside of time).

So while he knows what would happen if you choose to pull the trigger, and what will happen if you choose not to, he also knows which decision you will make because he has already seen the future. That doesn't mean it's not your decision.


Oh, but it's not your decision. It's God decision because, being all-powerful, he created you exactly as he chose. Either God is not all-knowing and/ or not all-powerful and free will could possibly exist or he is all-knowing and all-powerful and free will does not exist.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:05 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DeadSeraph



he also knows which decision you will make because he has already seen the future. That doesn't mean it's not your decision.


But if god knows what decision ill make then that would mean I had no choice since it was going to happen that way.

Let's say god knows im going to shoot and the day comes where I do shoot him. Was that really my choice or was that action supposed to happen since god already knew that i would do it?


He not only knew you would do it but, being all-powerful, he created you to do it. Of course, this is all based on God existing and being all-knowing and all-powerful, none of which I personally believe.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:06 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: danielsil18

You seem to be missing the point we are all trying to make.

We live in time which is a line with a beginning and an end. God IS the alpha and omega. He IS the beginning and the end at the same time. That simple statement is that God has no line. He is outside of time, beyond time. He is timeless. It is all one to Him.

There is no future for God because the concept doesn't exist for Him like it does for us. His simply IS.

Because of that He knows what is, what was, what will be.

We are on the line called time, and because of that, we only know what was and what is and we can guess at what might be depending on what the choices are before us. Sure God knows all things at once because He's not on the line, but that doesn't mean he pulls the strings inside your head that make you choose one choice over another. For all we know, there are many different realities, one for every choice you could make, and God sees them all.



Your assumption that time is linear is just an assumption, like your belief that God exists.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:08 PM
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originally posted by: MKMoniker
a reply to: danielsil18

"It's possible for things to be written in stone even if free will exists. It's just that no matter what we do things will still occur how they're foreseen."

Not really. Lots of people read the "carved in stone" Mayan calender to mean the world would end in 2012. Guess what? We're still here!

And understanding God and Time is really a little more complicated. God sees all and knows all, but he lets His intelligent creations choose their own path. Aided by spiritual teachings and behavioral texts like the Bible and Koran, which set up a moral and just path for us all to follow, in terms of how to "behave" toward God and our fellow man. "Free will" allows us to learn and grow, thru making choices that turn out good or bad.

But God is NOT a puppeteer. Only Evil wants to manipulate intelligent creatures to do their bidding. Like any good parent, God wants us to learn and grow, and eventually be able to live a moral and contributing Life on our own.

And while God may be able to "see all things to the end of this universal cycle," the probability of major events occurring at certain times gets fuzzier the farther away you go in the Future. Since the seeds of the most probable events to occur in the Near Future are in the present.



Within the context of Christian belief, this is rubbish. Outside of the context of Christian belief, it's utter rubbish.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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This is my analogy.


Does it make sense?

An observer of the watch, will always know what time it is or what's going to be next. The internal watch however, with it's endless complicated moving parts, has no concept of what time it is or what's next. Yet, every move it makes is different relative to its previous complexity giving the illusion of (free choice) when in reality it's not. Our lives are like the inside of a watch but the outcome is always predictable to the observer.
edit on 16-11-2014 by FlySolo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DISRAELI

But that would mean we have no choice or decision for our future.




Only if you're silly enough to take Christianity literally--or at all.



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