It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

If God knows the future then no one has free will

page: 4
4
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
My point is that god doesnt know whats going to happen because that depends on me.

He DOES know what you are going to do, even though it depends on you, because he can see NOW the situation in which you have ALREADY DONE it.
Just as I can see NOW the end-result of all the battle decisions that King Charles "will" make, even though they are still in "his future" and depend on himself.

You can try the experiment yourself. Go to a novel. Read the end first. Then read through the book, and you wll find that you know the "future" of the characters, even though you're not controlling what they do.
"Knowing" and "controlling" are NOT the same thing.
edit on 16-11-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:44 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI



He DOES know what you are going to do, even though it depends on you, because he can see NOW the situation in which you have ALREADY DONE it.


He would know the two outcomes, but he wouldnt know which outcome would happen because that would depend on me.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:49 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DeadSeraph

How could time play into it?

Nvm, read my reply to Disraeli. I think you have the same point as him.


Again, even in your example, time does play into it, since God is outside of time. He already knows which decision you're going to make, because he sees the past, present, and future all at once (being omniscient and outside of time).

So while he knows what would happen if you choose to pull the trigger, and what will happen if you choose not to, he also knows which decision you will make because he has already seen the future. That doesn't mean it's not your decision.
edit on 16-11-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:54 PM
link   
God does have the ability to intervene and has and He may in your's mine or anyone else s to bring about His plan .Think Jonah and the whale . But it does no stop us from making choices that may not be in God will . He could have easily decided to use someone else beside Jonah but didn't in that case . a reply to: danielsil18



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
He would know the two outcomes, but he wouldnt know which outcome would happen because that would depend on me.

He knows which outcome will happen, because from his viewpoint it HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.
Whichever you are going to do in the future, he can already see that you have done it.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:00 PM
link   
a reply to: DeadSeraph



he also knows which decision you will make because he has already seen the future. That doesn't mean it's not your decision.


But if god knows what decision ill make then that would mean I had no choice since it was going to happen that way.

Let's say god knows im going to shoot and the day comes where I do shoot him. Was that really my choice or was that action supposed to happen since god already knew that i would do it?
edit on 16-11-2014 by danielsil18 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:05 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Lets put another analogy.

A baby is born. That baby can become anything (a lawyer, doctor, criminal, gang leader, gardener, etc). Lets say he will become a lawyer in the future.

You are saying that god, not only knows all the outcomes of the baby, but also knows that the baby will actually become a lawyer?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:14 PM
link   
a reply to: danielsil18
Yes, because from his standpoint in eternity he can SEE the person standing in his lawyer's wig AT THE SAME TIME AS he can see the child as a baby in the pram.
Just as I can pick up the biography of King Charles and choose to see, almost simultaneously, both his birth and his execution, because I am reading from a standpoint OUTSIDE the book, and not limited by it.
If God stands outside the book of our lives, he can see our beginnings and our endings simultaneously.


edit on 16-11-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:14 PM
link   
a reply to: danielsil18

You seem to be missing the point we are all trying to make.

We live in time which is a line with a beginning and an end. God IS the alpha and omega. He IS the beginning and the end at the same time. That simple statement is that God has no line. He is outside of time, beyond time. He is timeless. It is all one to Him.

There is no future for God because the concept doesn't exist for Him like it does for us. His simply IS.

Because of that He knows what is, what was, what will be.

We are on the line called time, and because of that, we only know what was and what is and we can guess at what might be depending on what the choices are before us. Sure God knows all things at once because He's not on the line, but that doesn't mean he pulls the strings inside your head that make you choose one choice over another. For all we know, there are many different realities, one for every choice you could make, and God sees them all.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:20 PM
link   
a reply to: danielsil18

"It's possible for things to be written in stone even if free will exists. It's just that no matter what we do things will still occur how they're foreseen."

Not really. Lots of people read the "carved in stone" Mayan calender to mean the world would end in 2012. Guess what? We're still here!

And understanding God and Time is really a little more complicated. God sees all and knows all, but he lets His intelligent creations choose their own path. Aided by spiritual teachings and behavioral texts like the Bible and Koran, which set up a moral and just path for us all to follow, in terms of how to "behave" toward God and our fellow man. "Free will" allows us to learn and grow, thru making choices that turn out good or bad.

But God is NOT a puppeteer. Only Evil wants to manipulate intelligent creatures to do their bidding. Like any good parent, God wants us to learn and grow, and eventually be able to live a moral and contributing Life on our own.

And while God may be able to "see all things to the end of this universal cycle," the probability of major events occurring at certain times gets fuzzier the farther away you go in the Future. Since the seeds of the most probable events to occur in the Near Future are in the present.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:27 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

But that would mean we have no choice or decision for our future.

Yes I can read about King Charles being born and executed basically at the same time, but if our lives are like a book then we have no decision for our destiny.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:29 PM
link   
a reply to: danielsil18

There is no free will and anyone who believes free will exists, I think is kidding themselves. We live within a virtual reality construct, something like a 4 dimensional movie, created by the interference patterns of bosons (which create what we perceive as matter). We don't think with a brain, it's a remote data acquisition and control system, tethered through some technology/science/natural mechanism to who we really are, that we (within this construct) just don't understand.

Does time exists for that big programmer/mathematician outside of our reality? Probably not in the sense we perceive it. It would be something like looking at a super 8mm film in our reality, we can wind it up and see the past, unwind it and see the future or just let the thing play out.

All you can do is try to enjoy the ride, don't worry (it changes nothing) and when it's over, another ride will be along shortly.

Cheers - Dave
edit on 11/16.2014 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:31 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko




For all we know, there are many different realities, one for every choice you could make, and God sees them all.


Thats what I was getting from Disraeli's replies, but I'm not sure if this is what he means.

But it would open a whole can of worms. A reality for every choice I make??

Too many beliefs for me.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:33 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
But that would mean we have no choice or decision for our future.
Yes I can read about King Charles being born and executed basically at the same time, but if our lives are like a book then we have no decision for our destiny.

If I can now read about the decisions made by King Charles, does that take away his power to make them? Of course it doesn't.
It does NOT mean that we have no choice.
It just means that whichever choice we make, that will be the choice that is made visible to someone who knows the future.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:34 PM
link   
a reply to: MKMoniker



the probability of major events occurring at certain times gets fuzzier the farther away you go in the Future. Since the seeds of the most probable events to occur in the Near Future are in the present.


Basically god sees the future in probabilities. He sees all the outcomes but in probabilities.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
If someone knows what decisions we will make, who we will marry, what will happen to us, when we will die, etc then it suggests that we dont have free will. We are just experiencing the life we are supposed to have.

This would only apply to those who believe god has a "divine plan" and/or knows the future.

If god knew who you would marry and you married that person then you never had that choice. But if you chose someone else then god doesnt know the future.

if god knows the future then more questions would come like the tree in the Garden of Eden when god "tested" Adam and Eve or when satan was created.

But my question is how could we have free will if god knows our future or already planned everything out.


Free will is an utterly absurd Christian doctrine. It has only survived because the Christians who believe in it can't reason critically.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:39 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

I see what you mean.

Like me living right now while Obama is alive and I could know his future by "going to the future" and reading a book about him. Then coming back I would know what he did until he died without there being a "certain way" on how he is living his life.

I now understand what people mean by god being "timeless".
edit on 16-11-2014 by danielsil18 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:41 PM
link   

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: danielsil18

Interesting topic. I once posed this question to my father over a pint at the pub years ago. I really liked his answer. Essentially, he suggested looking at the issue as if God is looking down at a map. If you as an individual set out to reach a destination, you could have multiple routes that you can choose. God is looking at the map, and knows the outcome of each of those routes. You still have the choice of which route to choose, but He knows the outcome of each.

So in a sense, you can still have free will while God remains omniscient.


You're forgetting that God is supposed to be all-powerful and created you. Being all-powerful, he created you to do exactly that which he wanted you to do. Being all-knowing, God knew what you would do. Free will can not exist in such a system.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:41 PM
link   
a reply to: Tangerine

Then you have no free will?

Or there is no God?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:42 PM
link   

originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DISRAELI

I see what you mean.

Like me living right now while Obama is alive and I could know his future by "going to the future" and reading a book about him. Then coming back I would know what he did until he died without there being a "certain way" on how he lived his life.

I now understand what people mean by god being "timeless".



You're forgetting that God is also supposed to be all-powerful.



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join