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If God knows the future then no one has free will

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posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme




We have free will. But things are so complex that even if we chose to go right or left, the path is ultimately still the same.


Thats my point with many doors that lead to one room. We dont have a say on where we end up.




posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

So. It doesn't mean you control their actions, they do. And whose to say if there is only one path for everything that that path is written in stone?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

Interesting topic. I once posed this question to my father over a pint at the pub years ago. I really liked his answer. Essentially, he suggested looking at the issue as if God is looking down at a map. If you as an individual set out to reach a destination, you could have multiple routes that you can choose. God is looking at the map, and knows the outcome of each of those routes. You still have the choice of which route to choose, but He knows the outcome of each.

So in a sense, you can still have free will while God remains omniscient.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:43 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest




You simply would have known my will, you would not have had a hand in my decision making process.


But your decisions wouldnt matter because you would end up right where you were supposed to be. You could have chosen any door you wanted, but you ended up in the same room.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:43 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
I understand the point you bring up. That would suggest that god doesnt know whats going to happen because the future depends on everyone's actions meaning;
- god doesnt know whats going to happen
- there is no "divine plan"

On the contrary, God DOES know what's going to happen because he can "see" the point where it's already happened.
Just as I can read about King Charles beginning the Civil War and also "see", at the same time, the point where he gets his head chopped off.
Given his knowledge of what people are going to do, any plans of his own can be designed around that.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:45 PM
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a reply to: Swills

I wouldnt control their actions. But their actions wouldnt matter because it doesnt change their future since its already predestined.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

Not you, God. You claim since God knows the future there is no free will. I'm saying just because God knows it doesn't mean negate free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: DeadSeraph

We would only have the free will to choose the path but the destination would still be the same.

Like I said in the first page, you have many doors that lead to only one room.

But wouldnt true free will be a life where your destiny depends on the actions you make?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: ketsuko

If we knew what team would win, who would score and who would get injured then there is no free will. Everyone would play because we dont know who would win, but the winners are already predestined no matter what anyone does.

like i said before. You have many doors in front of you that only lead to one door, thats not free will. Free will would mean that our actions could change the future. Meaning no one should know who the winner is going to be.


And none of us do.

Only God does. Are you counting God as one of us? God isn't here the same way we are. He doesn't operate the same way we do.

My husband likes to think of God as an extra-dimensional being in a sense. He isn't bound by the same laws of space and time as we are and that's how He can be the Alpha and Omega at the same time. The beginning the end are the same point to Him or near enough as to make no difference. What you or I do will lead to the Omega because it has already happened in God's eyes.

This is what prophecy is. Foreshadowing of the future, but it makes no sense until we are pretty much right on top of it or past it. You can take actions to try to cause it to be or try to avert it, but all you do is take different routes to the same conclusion because you don't see the whole. And none of it change the reality that no one is changing your actions in any way. You still have the same choices you had before and can take them in the same way.

Although I supposed if you want to take actions that directly go against the laws of physics you might be out of luck.
edit on 16-11-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:49 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

As long as the other options existed, free will exists.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:53 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

This is a part of the analogy you gave me:



If he had made a different set of decisions, then I would still know his future, but it would be a different future.


Key word here is "different".

If god knows the future up to the actions we recently made (Which is what I assume you were trying to explain) then the future depends on the actions we make. Which would mean that god doesnt know the future because we still have more decisions to make that will change the future.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: DeadSeraph

We would only have the free will to choose the path but the destination would still be the same.

Like I said in the first page, you have many doors that lead to only one room.

But wouldnt true free will be a life where your destiny depends on the actions you make?


No, you choose the destination, and which path to take. Whether you will make it there or not, you do not know. But you still choose it.

Your destiny DOES depend on the actions you take. If you choose to start smoking crack and sell all your things to feed your habit, chances are your life is not going to end well due to YOUR CHOICES. Even in biblical terms, the bible is full of examples of people (and even angels) who disobey God. How can they disobey Him if they have no free will? The very act of disobedience implies free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

But the key is that even the different future would still be known.

Does that mean the different future is still one in which the King has no free will?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: Swills

Let's say that he knew you would marry Lindsay since you were a baby, and you end up marrying Lindsay. What free will did you have on the matter?



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:56 PM
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Like I said in the first page, you have many doors that lead to only one room.

But wouldnt true free will be a life where your destiny depends on the actions you make?
a reply to: danielsil18 If you decided to take a trip to the west coast and started your journey by bus and then decided to take a train part way and then find a plane and the plane landed short of your destiny and you had to walk the last bit , You still end up on the west coast using your free will to choose by what means to get there . With God and the end destination it is Him that will get you there no matter the route you choose to take .

Part of the journey as a christian involves us making bad choices and decisions and those do affect the journey but not the destination . Like how the differing modes of transportation can vary in speed and comfort ,but the destination is the same .



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I would call it limited free will because I call true free will a life where your destiny depends on the actions you make. Not a life where your actions dont matter because your destiny is already predestined.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:58 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: Swills

Let's say that he knew you would marry Lindsay since you were a baby, and you end up marrying Lindsay. What free will did you have on the matter?



If that is the case, you have to keep in mind that God is outside of space and time by His very nature. If he is omniscient, and outside of space and time, then you need to consider the possibility that in such a scenario, God knew you would choose to marry Lindsay. He did not coerce you to do so.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: danielsil18

You ask a valid question; however, our future is soley ours, as we control our necessity or justification.

God, according to your premise, does not know of future, past, or present. God is not a questionable moment, He is all that is, was, or will be. Translation? You bet.

We are extensions of God; therefore, there is only God. He knows what he is doing, will do, or has done. God has free will. We are his thoughts, actions, movements...his very Being.

We have free will, just as an involuntary muscle operates free of exact thought. All pieces moving together, independently, yet in conjunction. The brain can be active after the heart stops...just like that. God is aware we complete his being, He can override us at any moment, but it is painful to do so. Much like our lives. A person who must maintain certain functions to live. God will preserve Himself no matter the cost. We are currently part of His existence, but not vital to his being. Everything works as a whole, that whole is God.




edit on 16-11-2014 by Boscov because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:00 PM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

Then we dont have the free will to change our destiny.

It would be like a room with many doors that lead to only one room, you are bound to get to that room no matter which door you choose.


And that one room you speak of is death. That's it. That's all there is at the end of the road that we can prove exists.

If the room you speak of is the legacy we leave behind, what we actually did with our lives, this is what you're faced with: If there is a divine plan for you, that can best be determined by what your instincts tell you is the best way to proceed with the big decisions in life you have to make. The decisions that will make you what you are. If you are constantly going against your instincts and forging your own way, then at the end of it all you will be remembered as someone who made their own way through life. You didn't change your destiny. Its still there. It was simply ignored and forgotten as you were doing what you wanted. As you were practicing free will.

Was it the best thing you could have done? Perhaps. Perhaps by doing what you wanted you lived a better life in all aspects than what you perceived your instincts would have led you to live.

Perhaps not. Perhaps your life could have been better had you followed your instincts.

Here's the rub: People who feel it's better to control every aspect of their own lives will be more apt to practice and preach the virtues of free will and not believe so much in a divine plan. At the end of the day though, they were prisoners of their own vice: Control. They weren't strong enough to trust their instincts. They didn't have enough foresight into their own lives to turn off the brights and face that dark road with only the fog lamps on.

THAT'S free will.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: DeadSeraph

If we choose our destiny then god wouldnt know our future because it depends on our actions.

If god knows the outcome of our life then our actions dont matter because our outcome is already predestined.



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