Muslims discovered America before Columbus says Turkish President

And when did hunter gatherers cross the Bering Straits again exactly?, last Ice Age?, lol.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
The Vikings were there first.

en.wikipedia.org...

There's some that say the ancient Egyptians were there 1000's of years before Columbus, and then there's the Phoenicians who in ancient times, were considered the worlds most advanced seafarers, there's claims that they visited too.

Besides, our 'history' is based almost entirely on relatively modern history, only going back 5,000 or 6,000 years or so.

That is such a tiny fraction of our history, it's illogical and quite naive to claim anything concrete about who did what and when, based on such a small slice of time.

Almost every year archaeologists are 'stunned' or 'shocked' or 'amazed' or 'perplexed' at what is being found and discovered about the history of our species and the evidence of civilisation and advanced building and organisational ability in use during what we call pre-history, which is continuously being pushed back further and further into the remote past.

Anatomically correct artworks, discovered in ancient cave dwellings, that would not look out of place today taking pride of place in a naturalist art gallery or exhibition, yet are up to 45,000 years old.

Complex maths ability and counting methods demonstrated by people previously considered mindless savages, also tens of thousands of years old.

There is such a tiny fraction we think we know, yet we still listen to the experts who lay it all down in a linear format and state, "This is how it was, this is the story of Humanities history"...when in truth, if our history was a large book, they have barely read one sentence of the foreword, and they are probably reading that backwards and upside down.

originally posted by: alienjuggalo

originally posted by: CJCrawley
The Vikings were there first.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Indians were here first

I meant before Columbus or Muslims.

The Americas have been inhabited for thousands of years, no one's disputing that.

a reply to: CJCrawley

Nope Romans

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: CJCrawley

Nope Romans

Oh...do tell!

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

He is referring to this, the suppressed discovery by an american marine archaeologist of the possible remains of a roman vessel and a cargo of amphora.

www.nytimes.com...

However if by discovery we mean and returned home then obviously these poor souls did not, it is questionable indeed whether it may have merely been a lost vessel washed out into the atlantic by a storm and if anyone survived the journey but someone more knowledgable on ocean currents would be best suited to answer that though I would assume the gulf stream would have prohibited such and pushed it more northerly unless it headed that way on purpose.

Perhaps this was an early entrepreneur trading olive oil or wine for south american gold and keeping the source a secret.

And of course whether this fellow did discover a Roman wreck or not is still up there as he look's to be quite guilty of the brazilian navy's counter charge's of looting from other wreck's, still I do tend to believe him over the Roman wreck even if I would not trust him to protect the family silver.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Barbary piracy only ended after the French invasion of Algeria in 1830. Although it was greatly reduced after an allied fleet attacked Algiers in 1816. Even then small scale (small boats taking small boat]0 lasted until the 19th century - but it was more like robbery than state run piracy.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

He is referring to this, the suppressed discovery by an american marine archaeologist of the possible remains of a roman vessel and a cargo of amphora.

Of course the easy answer is that the 'cargo' was mere ballast dumped at a much more conventional date.As a comparator, Red Bay, Labrador is so named because its bottom is littered with European roof tiles. It also looks as though Marx's archaeological title is self-proclaimed. One might want to tread carefully with this claim.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: LABTECH767

Barbary piracy only ended after the French invasion of Algeria in 1830. Although it was greatly reduced after an allied fleet attacked Algiers in 1816. Even then small scale (small boats taking small boat]0 lasted until the 19th century - but it was more like robbery than state run piracy.

Yes you are correct, they actually enslaved millions of europeans over the centurys and many were worked to death much like there african cousins were by the european slave owners, entire villages and even towns were deserted over time to avoid the barbery scourge, the africans over all suffered by far the worst, the Arabs and other Islamic groups' enslaved them, the europeans enslaved them and even some other african tribes enslaved them.

Now of course one upon a time slavery was normal but still evil among humans but during the period of european slavery (let's not forget Serfdom as it was after all slavery) the europeans lost any religious credulity as it was patently against the teachings of a messiah who said "I came to set you free".

However Slavery is acceptable in Islam and is still widely practiced today and there is also the modern scourge of sex Slave and human trafficking.

Even in the USA Prostitutes working for a pimp are in fact Slave's, the method of chaining or binding them is a little different and usually comes in the form of a syringe but slavery is slavery when one person is forced to do another's bidding and is regarded as there property (my girls) what else could it be.

Still back on subject, I think it is plausible that a Roman and even a pheonician ship could easily have reached the america's, indeed many of them were larger than the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.

But could they have then made the return journey and of course no compass only the stars.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
Still back on subject, I think it is plausible that a Roman and even a pheonician ship could easily have reached the america's, indeed many of them were larger than the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.

If memory serves, though, Roman ships were not built for trans-oceanic voyages but Columbus' ships were. Could they have gotten here by accident? Stranger things have happened. Is there any proof they did? None that I've seen.

If this were true the Muslims would have wiped out or sold into slavery the Native American population faster than the Europeans.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

They were less stable than columbus ships and had lower gunnels that meant they could more easily be swamped but many a Roman and Pheonician (the Romans based there military ship's on Pheonician galley's) sailed through many a storm on the mediteranean sea, it may not have the super massive storm front's or huge waves of the atlantic but it can blow a true tempest at time's and is a sizable body of water, they also successfully navigated the coast's of africa and europe.

Admittedly european shipwrights of the later period had learned a lot since that time and the ship technology was at a least generation ahead in design, deeper keel's provided greater stability and the later ships may also have been faster (well a galley could outrun a sail ship but there hulls were perhaps more aquadynamic), it is worth noting that the viking's may too have reached new foundland in ships that though much faster due to there ship lap planking which created a planing effect by trapping air under the hull as the bow cut through the water and thus reducing drag on the hull, that the viking vessels were if anything inferior in almost all other way's to the Roman period ship's though they did come in two variatys' the long narrow raider ships and the viking merchant vessels both of which had extremely shallow draft with the merchant ship actually being designed for beaching and flat for this purpose, it was actually a testament to the Norse seaman's skill more than to there vessels which may have little changed for well over a thousand years prior the viking period.

originally posted by: CJCrawley

originally posted by: alienjuggalo

originally posted by: CJCrawley
The Vikings were there first.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Indians were here first

I meant before Columbus or Muslims.

The Americas have been inhabited for thousands of years, no one's disputing that.

Well since all people supposedly came from Africa, they had to discover the Americas at one point too. I guess they win. Or do we disregard history that was so long ago that we cannot ascertain who it was exactly?

a reply to: jjkenobi

Maybe true, certainly from there perspective it would have been more acceptable to do this but it was more the diseases that the europeans brought with them that depopulated the americas followed by the largest and longest genocide in known human history.

I would say toss of the dice on that one, if they Arab's had been disease free then much like the Vikings of Vinland the Skraelings (as the vikings named them calling them wild men) would have perhaps been able to defeat the arab's, then again Gun's and Cannon though the confusion and fear of seeing blonde blue eye'd being's like there mythical god caused to the Aztec and later the Inca can not be underestimated, most Islamic people would have struggled to have the same effect and that army of four million men might very well have attacked and wiped them out with no fear of the rage of there God's.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Let's be bluntly honest - there is no ethnicity or culture that is free of having been both slaver and enslaved. It is pretty much endemic to the human condition.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: LABTECH767
Still back on subject, I think it is plausible that a Roman and even a pheonician ship could easily have reached the america's, indeed many of them were larger than the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.

If memory serves, though, Roman ships were not built for trans-oceanic voyages but Columbus' ships were. Could they have gotten here by accident? Stranger things have happened. Is there any proof they did? None that I've seen.

Maybe they got blown off course and got extremely lucky?

Isn't there speculation that a Chinese expedition might have encountered the same fate and wound up somewhere off the West coast of the continent at some point, too?

a reply to: ketsuko

Not really. It's endemic to civilizations with power structures not human beings on their own. There are plenty of tribal "savages" who do not engage in slavery.

originally posted by: dollukka
Pagans discovered first, they were not muslims, christians or vikings. Natives also travelled to there most likely from the Far East.

Vikings were pagans--just saying.

Who cares who discovered America? As people have pointed out you cant Discover something that's already lived on, if you did you stole it. and did the humans Discover the land from the Dinosaurs? we are so obsessed with the small details we never see the bigger picture.

Our obsessions with fighting over pieces of Dirt still amazes me.

a reply to: ketsuko

I would have to agree with Tavi on that one Ketsuko, it is common in society's but there are many tribal people who do not have slavery even today, I would say though it goes with large controlling civilization's and society's where stealing a bride is more acceptable as it is culturally endemic in them that forcing another person to your will is sometimes acceptable.

It is perhap's a product of need for labour such as for agriculture or to build your ramparts and large population's of different people's in close proximity but take a hunter gatherer from a small tribe (large tribes are another matter - aka a man called horse), he is part of an extended family namely his tribe, he goes out to catch his food and this is not compatible with a slave culture as a slave is another mouth to feed who you can not send out to hunt as he would simply run away so in essence I think slavery is a product of heirarchy and early barbaric civilization's so Tavi hit the nail on the head but you do have a point as slavery is an ancient, but no less evil for being so, practice of raping another human beings will.