Enforce a Maximum Wage!

originally posted by: Prezbo369
So you don't think that ensuring a minimum wage is paid to anyone willing to work, regardless of their success or abilities, would lift a massive portion of those people out of poverty?

No. Because it won't work within the US economy in the same way it has (sometimes) worked in smaller, less complex economies.

The "minimum wage" was never intended as a "working wage." The intent is for a starter-wage that is not exploitive.

Now, I do agree that the current minimum wage could be higher, but not by a lot. And I also agree that the minimum wage should receive at least yearly adjustments, tied to some formula of the GDP against inflation. But not the near-doubling many people are talking about.

The biggest problem, with respect to the US economy, is that a significant rise in the minimum wage would trickle-up the salaried food chain, eventually resulting in nearly everyone getting a similar income bump. And then prices would go up to reflect the increased cost of doing business (don't forget that for employers, it's not just the salary rise, there would be an increase in the taxes associated with payroll). The result: the buying power of the minimum wage would pretty much stay the same.

Real World Example

My first job, while in college, was a skate guard at a very-large roller skating rink (official capacity, 800, we often doubled that), with over 70 employees between skate guards, skate repair, pro shop, snack bar, maintenance, DJ, etc.

I started at minimum wage. (forget what it was then)

I worked hard, got good at it, got a promotion to lead skate guard, got a little raise.

I continued to be good at it, convinced the managers to let me try being a DJ on slow sessions… got good at that, got a promotion, got a raise. I was making $3/hour more than minimum wage woo-hoo!!!!

Then, (1980 +/-) there was a $1.12 (I think) rise in the minimum wage. Everyone, from new skate guards to assistant managers got a $1.12 raise -- it's the only fair thing to do. Three weeks later, the admission fee had to go up by $0.50 and skate rental had to go up a bit.


Now… in that successful but small business scenario, what happens when 70+ employees all need a $7 raise?

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Now… in that successful but small business scenario, what happens when 70+ employees all need a $7 raise?

Hi,
Seems simple to me...
maybe the over-compensated ceos of the corporate world could show some appreciation for those (70+ employees) who make his/her luxury lifestyle possible? or are they (ceos) struggling also?

Luxury does not exist without poverty supporting it?
if i need a seven dollar raise, it's not my fault, i'm just there so i can eat. and b/c i semi like my co-workers...

it's bread and breaking bread in half so there is enough to go around that keeps hungry people wanting more?

i suppose without the dramatics of starving people to entertain us all, we'd just be lowered to thumb twiddling?

what's wrong with everybody having their bellies full with a sense of content all around?

thanks for the thread.

originally posted by: loveguy
Seems simple to me...
maybe the over-compensated ceos of the corporate world could show some appreciation for those (70+ employees) who make his/her luxury lifestyle possible? or are they (ceos) struggling also?

How absurd. I just told you it was a small business. Family owned. Husband and wife. In the case were minimum wage suddenly rockets to $15/hour, their labor costs nearly triple.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
Then, (1980 +/-) there was a $1.12 (I think) rise in the minimum wage.

That's a fairly huge increase of the min. wage, especially in the 80s, but if the skate park was often doubling it's capacity to 1600 kids, i'm not sure why the raise was even a problem or why overall prices to the customer had to increase.

There just isn't enough jobs to go around, some folk will have to work in McDonalds and Walmart and not just kids or young people.

Now… in that successful but small business scenario, what happens when 70+ employees all need a $7 raise?

You're assuming that small businesses (with 70+ employees?..) cannot sustain themselves while paying it's lowest tier employees a livable wage?

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: loveguy
Seems simple to me...
maybe the over-compensated ceos of the corporate world could show some appreciation for those (70+ employees) who make his/her luxury lifestyle possible? or are they (ceos) struggling also?

How absurd. I just told you it was a small business. Family owned. Husband and wife. In the case were minimum wage suddenly rockets to $15/hour, their labor costs nearly triple.

somebody has to 'fix the books' somewhere, (to keep mom and pops in business) it would to have have a trickle-down effect to work. in a corporate world. if mom and pop shops have a place in a corporate world?

corporatism is being shoved down our throats as we are told it is to sustain us as a species? while only a few of us are actually sustained? mom and pop should not have so much ambition, there's not enough to go around?

"the books are fixed, and not to benefit the workers actually breaking a sweat."

that's my argument as i bid a good day to you with respect.

originally posted by: loveguy
if i had 5k out of the gate; incentive to complete hs would come first (class graduations would increase). i would be in class building on my future, i'd be too busy to chase girls/play house, break into neighbors houses, be champion beer-bonger...etc. might not even get arrested-ever, due to productive citizen status.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... Oh wait, I do... It's laugh... High school graduation rates are currently at an all time high; based on the incentive of becoming a productive citizen, not a self entitled, angst ridden mope. I would wager the $5,000 would be spent foolishly and quickly, and have no impact other than lightening a productive taxpayers wallet. I resent your feeble attempt to extort even a penny of someone taxpayer's money to make you "fly right." It's called "character," the intrinsic quality that allows one to succeed even in the face of adversity, to take responsibility and action to ensure future success, as opposed to a feckless bum who expects a handout to merely draw breath another day.

the way it is, hser's have a dim future of struggling to get by as it is...where's the incentive for anyone not sponsored by a dad with war bucks?

Right... The overwhelming majority of kids in HS are trust funders without a care in the world, devoid of want, guaranteed in their success... Those that need to put for effort and excel are a hapless minority that is ignored. I'd say join the military, but I wouldn't do that to the military... Is a circus coming through your town anytime soon?

5k equates to $17B a year; is that all it'd cost to grow more educated amongst us?

You are well down the path to being a statist pawn... $5,000 is a game changer to you, but $17 billion of OPM is a flippant demand without consequence. Where do you think that money comes from?

i have no real use for money, except what is dictated to me by my peers; and i am the 'crazy-one'!

The victim card... Finally the truth... You are a helpless leaf in the wind, buffeted by forces beyond your ken, only to be deposited upon the board of fate by the whimsical hand of lady luck... Devoid of free will, not even the master of your own life, much less your soul...

If...

originally posted by: LoneGunMan
a reply to: SkepticOverlord

The stock holders got a huge payday? What about the average employees that are the backbone of the company? Did they get a piece of the action? Whatever happened to compesaring the hard working Joe who used to be the middle class?

hey, hey, hey.....the "hard-working-Joe" are a dime-a-dozen, a mere intermediary value-inflated albatross, before full automation takes over. think of them as slaves in ancient Egyptian times...you had to feed and shelter them, before any leaders brilliance could be fully realized

originally posted by: Prezbo369
That's a fairly huge increase of the min. wage, especially in the 80s,

I recalled incorrectly, but not too far off. Between 1979 and 1982, the minimum wage went from $2.30 to $3.35.

but if the skate park was often doubling it's capacity to 1600 kids, i'm not sure why the raise was even a problem or why overall prices to the customer had to increase.

You presume wrong. We approached 1,600 only on the rare (4 times a year) all-nigh skates. Typical weekend crowd was 600-700 at $2.00 (originally) to get in the door, and $1.00 to rent skates. During the week, it was slow private parties.

There just isn't enough jobs to go around, some folk will have to work in McDonalds and Walmart and not just kids or young people.

As mentioned previously, the minimum wage was never intended as a living wage. It's intent is a non-expoitive wage for inexperienced people entering the work force.

You're assuming that small businesses (with 70+ employees?..) cannot sustain themselves while paying it's lowest tier employees a livable wage?

Are you aware of math? Let's do some ballparks that are reasonably correct.

1) Labor costs: let's presume the average wage across all employees was $4.50 (that should be a low-side guess, everyone got a small raise after their first three months), and the average hours worked was 30 per week. That's about $41,000 per month in salaries (not counting manager and owners). In NYS, there's significant payroll tax and workman's compensation insurance that are roughly 80% of salaries. So that's another $32,800 in labor costs for a total of $73,800 per month just to sustain the workforce. That comes out to $885,600.00 annually.

2) Hard costs:
This was a massive rink, with a hardwood floor nearly the size of a typical community ice skating rink. It required regular resurfacing and maintenance. Once every three months, the finish was stripped and resurfaced… about $20k each time.
It was in a mid-range shopping center with a large well-maintained parking lot. Monthly rent was about $27,000 from what I recall.
This was the disco-era, a complex and expensive lighting and sound system was installed. Not counting installation, the air-conditioning/electric bill was over $12,000 each month.
Insurance was really high -- a roller-skating rink -- the annual premium was just over $110,000. (I became close with the manager, he griped about all this all the time)
So we have fixed annual costs at about $658,000.00

3) Total costs: there's lots of other smaller items, like cost-of-goods for the snack bar, cost-of-goods for repairing rental skates, carpet shampooing, etc. Let's go low-side and call that all $300.00 a year. This puts the major items of total annual operating costs at about $1.84 million.

4) Weekend income: During the hey-day, Saturday and Sunday had four sessions. Early morning for small children, afternoon for pre-teens, evening for teens, late-night for adults. $2.00 admission for evening/late-night, $1.50 all other times. The average gate was 75 morning, 400 afternoon, 800 evening, 300 late-night. That's $4,800 for admission. Add $1,600 for the Friday evening, 50%-60% of gate rented skates, typically snack bar was 1.5-1.6 of gate; for a total weekend income of around $14,500.

5) Weekday income: It cost $2,000 to $4,000 to rent out the rink for private parties, depending on group size. Nearly every night was booked. For an average of $12,000 in attendance, and another $4,000 for snack bar (private parties spent less), for maybe $16,000 in weekday income per week.

6) Special event income: There were four all-night skates per year, and usually six special event concerts on a Saturday night. While costs were higher, they typically boosted the nightly income by four-times. So the total annual income was

7) Birthday party income: On Saturday and Sunday, afternoon birthday party revenue was typically 75% of the gate+food.

8) Pro-shop income: Usually $5,000 per week in profit between sales and repairs… skating was a big-deal back then.

8) Total annual revenue: comes in at just over $2 million. Leaving about $160,000 annually between the owners and manager.

These are ball-park representative numbers, but very-close to real as I was made aware of the P&L when I was the senior DJ, responsible for booking concerts and organizing events.


Small business, collectively, are the largest employers in the nation… and a great many operate close to the bone like the example above.



So, in the example above -- project to contemporary issues, what happens if the mandated minimum wage is nearly doubled?

Answer, labor costs jump to $1.6 million, very nearly the total existing hard costs of sustaining operations. The business could not suddenly increase the gate to $6.50 in order to sustain itself… so it goes under.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
I recalled incorrectly, but not too far off. Between 1979 and 1982, the minimum wage went from $2.30 to $3.35.

So on average a 26c increase per year...

You presume wrong. We approached 1,600 only on the rare (4 times a year) all-nigh skates. Typical weekend crowd was 600-700 at $2.00 (originally) to get in the door, and $1.00 to rent skates. During the week, it was slow private parties.

....I didn't presume anything....

You said:

My first job, while in college, was a skate guard at a very-large roller skating rink (official capacity, 800, we often doubled that)

So you've gone from often....to rarely....in two posts.....this is starting to make no sense.

As mentioned previously, the minimum wage was never intended as a living wage. It's intent is a non-expoitive wage for inexperienced people entering the work force.

Yes you mentioned that but it's simply not true, it applies to all people of all ages and all levels of experience, even going back to its inception in the 14th century. And as I previously mentioned, good hardworking of all ages people have to work in places like Walmart and McDonald as there simply isn't enough jobs for everyone. Those people deserve a minimum standard of living at the very least.

Are you aware of math? Let's do some ballparks that are reasonably correct.

Oh.....patronization.....classy.

1) Labor costs: let's presume the average wage across all employees was $4.50 (that should be a low-side guess, everyone got a small raise after their first three months), and the average hours worked was 30 per week. That's about $41,000 per month in salaries (not counting manager and owners). In NYS, there's significant payroll tax and workman's compensation insurance that are roughly 80% of salaries. So that's another $32,800 in labor costs for a total of $73,800 per month just to sustain the workforce. That comes out to $885,600.00 annually.

A roller park with 70 members of staff working 30+ hours a week (not including managers etc)? I've been to many such parks and haven't ever noticed anywhere near 70 members of staff. Maybe they were all DJ'ing.

2) Hard costs:
This was a massive rink, with a hardwood floor nearly the size of a typical community ice skating rink. It required regular resurfacing and maintenance. Once every three months, the finish was stripped and resurfaced… about $20k each time.

Again I've been to a few such places and the floors in those places looked as though they've been there for years. Maintained for sure, but completely replaced every three months? hmm

At this point I dont have much compulsion to continue as your posts do not make a whole lot of sense.

I'm also confused as to why a DJ (senior or not) would have such intimate knowledge of a a roller skating rink's fiances...even if they were selling and managing events.

I would like to add that I find the attitudes displayed by ATS staff in this thread to be very disappointing and obnoxious. But then I find any such self serving attitudes quite distasteful and completely at odds with the spirit of 'the land of the free'...

originally posted by: Prezbo369
A roller park with 70 members of staff working 30+ hours a week (not including managers etc)? I've been to many such parks and haven't ever noticed anywhere near 70 members of staff. Maybe they were all DJ'ing.

Busy weekend nights required 25-30 people. Most employees were in school, many couldn't work two consecutive weekend days. It adds up.

And it wasn't a "roller park." It was an indoor skating rink.

Again I've been to a few such places and the floors in those places looked as though they've been there for years. Maintained for sure, but completely replaced every three months? hmm

I never said it was replaced.

At this point I dont have much compulsion to continue as your posts do not make a whole lot of sense.

Your inability to accept the math of a small business isn't my fault.

I'm also confused as to why a DJ (senior or not) would have such intimate knowledge of a a roller skating rink's fiances

Officially being part of management, how could I schedule special events without knowing budget and costs?



The point, which is being missed, is that small businesses are collectively the largest employer in the nation. And that imposing significant increases in the minimum wage will have a catastrophic effect.



But getting back to the ridiculous topic of this thread, imposing maximum wages, has no relation to the ill-informed suggestions you're projecting onto the minimum wage. Just go to any small business in your area, be friendly, indicate you're doing research for an online article. And ask the owners how much they personally make, and if it's enough. I guarantee you'll be shocked, and realize there's no need for a maximum wage.

Minimum wage goes up, prices go up on everything and your right back at where you started, 0.00

a reply to: Prezbo369

quick run down on how business works. In any small business, the model works like this:

- 40% labor
- 45% cost of goods (the widgets you sell, your brick and mortar costs, SU tax, Franchise Tax (if you have an LLC), etc
- 15% as "profit" (below the line profit, or GPM)

That is for a solid business. In a restaurant it can easily be skewed by poor inventory control. An entire months profits (i.e., a "paycheck" for the ownership) can be lost when a refrigerator goes out.

I would hazard a guess that a place like a skating rink, after they pay all the stuff like umbrella insurance and maintenance, is lucky to pull down 8% GPM. With margins that small, there is no such thing as "capital investment". Meaning, your business will only degrade/decline as the cost of replacing big ticket items could easily end up well out of range of being able to provide any kind of debt service payments for a loan.

You want to go after someone? Go after foreign hotel owners.

a reply to: Mirthful Me

that poem was nice, thanks.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
Actors,
Athletes,
Artists of any kind,
How do ya think tom hanks will react to a cap on his wages?

This is why we should be burning all movie theaters & stadiums to the ground.

I've been screaming salary cap for years. Start small with CEOs official wages & force that money into the company & workers wages.

It will happen one day, shortly followed by martial law & mass casualties.

God willing soon.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

So let's say the CEO of Ford is contractually due a massive $100 million bonus. But instead, the company is forced to give that to the 224,000 employees… amounting to about $280 annually after taxes… or $5.38 a week.

You're implying that will make some kind of difference?

a reply to: Eunuchorn

And today's Karl Marx Award goes to...

Vannah, what lovely prize do we have for our winner?

The Condition of the Working Class in England by Friedrich Engels?

Wow, we have spared every expense, but then again, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord Just go to any small business in your area, be friendly, indicate you're doing research for an online article. And ask the owners how much they personally make, and if it's enough. I guarantee you'll be shocked, and realize there's no need for a maximum wage.

^ Easily the dumbest point made in this whole thread.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
a reply to: Eunuchorn

So let's say the CEO of Ford is contractually due a massive $100 million bonus. But instead, the company is forced to give that to the 224,000 employees… amounting to about $280 annually after taxes… or $5.38 a week.

You're implying that will make some kind of difference?

A single CEO forgoing exorbitant pay for the benefit of his employees? No.
Every CEO, CFO, COO, & board member / anyone making over X amount forgoing their exorbitant pay for the benefit of their employees? Absolutely.

originally posted by: Mirthful Me
a reply to: Eunuchorn

And today's Karl Marx Award goes to...

Vannah, what lovely prize do we have for our winner?

The Condition of the Working Class in England by Friedrich Engels?

Wow, we have spared every expense, but then again, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Currently 75 people have more wealth than 3.5 Billion people. When the system is so innately evil, corrupt, & devoutly supported by willing slaves of the golden cow, there are few options.

If it were up to me every last human & remnant of humanity would be wiped from the face of the earth, & yesterday.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
If it were up to me every last human & remnant of humanity would be wiped from the face of the earth, & yesterday.

So the bottom line is that you are a sociopath on top of being a communist...

a reply to: SkepticOverlord
Bit of oversimplified example (a lot of those 224k employees will be on high wages already why spread it amongst them) but even going with that yes 5.38 a week would make a difference to a low paid employee. Also as lower paid spend a higher proportion of their income it would also be good for the economy.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

So why are you still here? Take your own advice and start with yourself.

Me, personally I'm busting my ass to be one of those people that you are all complaining about.