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court ordered to pay for college....what do you think about that?

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posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 04:35 PM
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originally posted by: Daughter2
. Not providing a college education in today's world most likely means they will be living in proverty their entire life.



you could be like azadan with like 6 thousand degrees and still not get something above minimum wage.
you could be like me...no college degree at all and no problems getting a good paying job.




posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 11:22 PM
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originally posted by: [post=18668896]
i like how this thread is only 3 pages and we have posts saying you need a degree to get a good paying job and if you dont have a degree you will live in poverty.
then we have posts like the one you just made talking about how you have never made above minimum wage and how there are college grads other than you that work minimum wage jobs, if they can even find a job...

so which is it?


If you don't have a degree you don't have a chance. If you have a degree you've got a 50% chance. Does that mean you shouldn't get the education?


maybe its where you live. maybe its the degrees you chose to pursue but in the end, it really sucks for you to put all that time in effort into all your degrees to work for minimum wage in the end anyway...

sucks for all the other college grads out there that are having a hard time finding a job period.


Associates in Computer Graphics (3d modeling, rapid prototyping, cnc programming, or 3d artwork), Web Programming (website client/server programming, administration, web languages), Game Design (Unity, Cryengine, Unreal engine, design principals, system design, etc). Bachelors in Computer Science (programming, math, database design/programming, etc), and working on one other in Simulation/Game engineering (lots of programming focused on code efficiency, extremely heavy on math).

Bad degree choices? Maybe, they have zero value locally but every report I read on job demand puts my skill set at the top of the list. Maybe I should have done something else? Or maybe the system isn't quite that straightforward? If you were in my town I could take you to Pizza Huts and Subways where every single employee has some sort of STEM degree... engineers, mathematicians, computer programmers, it's all very common.


ive never had a problem getting a job....then again, i chose trades that not everyone does and there will always be a demand for...
its worked out for me my entire adult life and i dont see that changing.


But not everyone can do that, if everyone did that there would be too much supply for your labor and it wouldn't be viable. It only works when people have options and choose to not do what you do. Supply and demand means pretty much by definition that what works for one person won't work for another.



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 11:33 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

If you don't have a degree you don't have a chance.

Associates in Computer Graphics (3d modeling, rapid prototyping, cnc programming, or 3d artwork)

But not everyone can do that,.


to the first part, youre wrong....we have been through this already.

to the second part, if you can program cnc and you cant find a job paying more than minimum wage then you are doing something wrong my friend....thats all there is to it.

my company paid for my cnc classes...paid for the class and got paid my hourly wage for all the work i missed while at class. paid for my gas and miles on my car as well.
after i finished my classes i got more than a $3 an hour raise.

to the 3rd part...yeah, thats the point.
i mean why do something that everyone else can do? why bother with getting some degree that will not really serve you?
dont get me wrong. knowledge is power and i am all for personal growth but getting a degree does not guarantee income. just like no degree does not equal poverty.
you have said getting a degree increases your chances of getting a good paying job....to that i say, how is that working out for you

i got into skilled trades that not everyone can do and it has served me just fine.

i stand by what i said before...
if you can program a cnc then you could/should be in a job shop making 25 bones an hour.
if youre only making minimum wage then something is wrong with your picture.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:50 AM
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originally posted by: Grovit
to the second part, if you can program cnc and you cant find a job paying more than minimum wage then you are doing something wrong my friend....thats all there is to it.

my company paid for my cnc classes...paid for the class and got paid my hourly wage for all the work i missed while at class. paid for my gas and miles on my car as well.
after i finished my classes i got more than a $3 an hour raise.


My experience with taking additional classes for a job happened while I was a tutor for a school. I wasn't qualified for a new class they wanted to cover so I could either lose the job or pay out of pocket to take the class. After completing it was business as usual, no raises or anything like that. The concept of a company doing that seems unreal to me.


you have said getting a degree increases your chances of getting a good paying job....to that i say, how is that working out for you


It has worked out less than well for me. But, it taught me a valuable lesson. If you work for others you will never be paid a fair wage. The solution is to learn what you need to learn and then become an entrepreneur. In my case that involves learning a lot of stuff so... I'm still at it.


if you can program a cnc then you could/should be in a job shop making 25 bones an hour.
if youre only making minimum wage then something is wrong with your picture.


It's not the sort of thing I usually put on my resume. I've never actually tried it locally actually. It just happens to be a side effect of learning how to model and having a few engineering classes. They're pretty similar techniques. I would much rather model an object and sell it on shapeways than CNC but they're targeting different markets. If I were going to take a job doing that I would need to brush up on GCode a bit, i'm not unfamiliar with it but it gets jumbled in my head with a million other things. It has been my experience though that people who want CNC operators want people full time rather than part time and there's just no allure to me in dropping out of school and giving up on my future dreams for a mere $25/hour in a field that really has nothing to do with what I want to do.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 03:53 AM
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she could always wait a few years and then start the college??? That's what I did. That's what my kids were forced to do of course none of them actually have the means now either. Ya know sometimes the gov't says a family should be able to pay for all this crap just fine while the family is going without things that they need right? At such times the gov't has no business butting in and deciding just how the money should be spent period!! Such families are doing thier part by just paying their taxes which are then used to give others "less fortunate" a better lifestyle than they can afford themselves!
I didn't really read the op so I don't know the financial situation of this particular family if they had a bank account filled to the brim maybe I'd feel differently but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if what the court is really doing is ordering this family to cosign the loans and put them into debt for her college! And well the responsible thing to do when it comes to debt (even when cosigning for someone) is to take a serious look at just how you will be paying it back and if it's even doablel! And student loan debt is a trap that cannot be escaped from at the present time. If she fails to pay and they are near retirement age they could conceivably find themselves having their social security taken from them to repay that loan. None of my kids went to college because they are afraid of that debt.

A person should be able to work their way through college that's how it used to be.. but well the little lady at the financial aide office laughed at me when I suggested my kid earn the money with his full time job and go part time claiming it just can't be done that way while pushing the loan application my way This is the problem the gov't has allowed, no they enabled, the cost of living to so badly outpace the wages of the average people that now we just can't afford some things. So instead of working at undoing the damage that have helped cause they are telling us tough crap! Pay for it anyways! Just like with the healthcare. Only I don't see any money trees growing outside in my yard or anybody's elses.
Something's got to give or they are gonna have a revolt on their hands I am afraid.


edit on 17-11-2014 by dawnstar because: something just not right with how it was posted might still not be right

edit on 17-11-2014 by dawnstar because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-11-2014 by dawnstar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 06:59 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan


The concept of a company doing that seems unreal to me.
trust me man. its not unusual at all. once you enter the work force you will see


It has worked out less than well for me. But, it taught me a valuable lesson. If you work for others you will never be paid a fair wage. The solution is to learn what you need to learn and then become an entrepreneur. In my case that involves learning a lot of stuff so... I'm still at it.
dont get me wrong man. i wish i could 'learn stuff' for the rest of my life...fact is i have people that depend on me though. if you have the means to not work or work light hours and take a gag of classes then thats awesome. i just dont think your parents should be forced by a court to pay for it


It's not the sort of thing I usually put on my resume. I've never actually tried it locally actually. It just happens to be a side effect of learning how to model and having a few engineering classes. They're pretty similar techniques. I would much rather model an object and sell it on shapeways than CNC but they're targeting different markets.
again, great....if you still in the position to do what you want to do over what you need to do then fantastic


It has been my experience though that people who want CNC operators want people full time rather than part time and there's just no allure to me in dropping out of school and giving up on my future dreams for a mere $25/hour in a field that really has nothing to do with what I want to do.
yeah, operators are going to work full time.....i thought you were a programmer though...and out here in the real world, if youre making 25 bones an hour, youre doing good.



i hope things workout for you...sounds like you have plans....if you think 25 bones an hour is not even worth your time then i guess you have your eye on something much bigger.

trust me though man.....if you decided to leave school or after you graduate you are still floating around minimum wage jobs, you could hit a shop/company and walk into an operator job making over 12 an hour.

life doe snot always work out the way you want though...ask those people with degrees that are slinging hash and not working in their chosen field.

this is not a knock but you seem to be a young dude with not too much real world work experience...the things i have mentioned seem other worldly to you...theyre not.

the manufacturing industry in general likes to promote from within....even if you had no degrees, as long as youre not a moron you could get an entry level job on a machine...if you show some sort of promise then there would be classes and/or other positions available to you...it is in the companies best interest....

the entry level jobs are easy to come by because they are entry level....there is usually a revolving door cause people dont tend to stick that long.....they cant handle it.
if youre getting it done believe me man, you can climb the ladder fast......fast in my eyes anyway.

most people dont really scoff at a 'mere' 25 bones an hour either.....just saying

also, i went from 25 an hour to 12 an hour because it does not sound like you are actually a programmer.
if you dont know g or m code then youre entry level....thats closer to the 12 range.....wouldnt be hard to take it from there to a programmer spot though.....

edit on 17-11-2014 by Grovit because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 10:49 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
Now, the big problem with taking fewer classes is that requirements change every year, and the classes you need to graduate are updated. As classes cease to be taught, a student must update their course schedule to meet the new requirements and take the new classes. If you're on the 4 year plan you can can expect a semesters worth of classes to be obsolete and need replaced before you graduate. If you're on the 6 year plan expect about 2.5 semesters worth of classes. If you go for an 8 year plan it's more along the lines of 6 semesters and with the way prereq's for classes work you can't just skip the classes that will drop off.

Additionally, on a 6 or 8 year plan you will face additional delays due to those prereq's. For example you may need a specific class that is only taught once per year in order to take more advanced classes. If you can't take it you lose out on that semester, and you lose out on the next semester.

There is no benefit to taking fewer classes, if you can't goto college full time for whatever reason you should simply not go, otherwise you will waste a lot of additional time and money.


You're wasting your breath, if someone has not tried to complete a BA/BS degree in a STEM related field within the last 10 years they have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you are talking about. They are ignorant about the process and FOREVER shall be.


originally posted by: dawnstar
she could always wait a few years and then start the college??? That's what I did.


Again, another person that doesn't know that they are talking about. There are MANY 1st tier schools that DO NOT take junior college transfers AND certain majors CAN NOT be transferred into. So, even though a Junior College transfer student may be able to enter a good 4-year school and get accepted into practical degree program after 2-years of JC, the major they enter MAY NOT accept any of the transfer units and the student will need to take freshman coursework in the major, turning it into a 6+ year full-time degree (architectural, nautical and aeronautical Engineering are 3 that come to mind). This is even, IF, the university even allows their students to take 6+ years in the major. Some don't and in turn force the student into a different major with overlapping graduation requirements, when they don't graduate from certain majors within 4 years. Some of the BEST majors with great job outlooks, are full-time only programs and WILL NOT allow part-time students in the department, under any circumstances, no waivers, no exceptions.

Lets say a high school student got accepted into Harvard for engineering on a full-scholarship, but the parent won't sigh the FAFSA forms so the student can accept the scholarship money. Guess what happens? They can't attend and use their EARNED full-ride because the parents refuse to fill out some paperwork. They can, at best, defer their enrollment for 2 semesters. After that they lose everything and must go to a Junior College, BUT they can never reenter Harvard because they don't take transfers. This scenario is FAR more common than anyone posting HERE can imagine, but if you've never worked in Admissions or Financial Aid, you'd think this possibility was all a bunch of hooey.

All you dinosaurs can jump off a cliff, you're not helping the problem, just piling on more wives-tales and mythological beliefs about how the system works.


originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: boohoo
If I understand your position correctly your argument seems to be that as the general population had failed to take the actions you believe necessary to protect wages (you are right on two of the 4) the only solution is to reduce the population by reducing drastically the birth rate?
This seems to firstly assume that the economy is a zero sum game. As populations fall so does demand. What do you think that does to wages. Your example of the post black death is not relevant as that was an agricultural based economy that suffered a dramatic decline in population across all age groups. Not the same as an advanced economy with a drastically reduced birth rate at all.


Please explain to me what purpose these homeless, poor, undereducated, kids serve to the current business society we have today and what "future proof" careers they will be entering in 10-15 years?

America's Youngest Outcasts: One in 30 Children Are Homeless

That's roughly 2.5 million extra people to drive down unskilled and semi-skilled wages across the country, in all sectors, when they come of age.

We must admit to ourselves that these "useless" people with no ability to educate themselves or find lasting careers, only do one thing, drive down wages. To believe any different means that one has bought into the myths being sold to us by the true "owners of capital".
edit on 17-11-2014 by boohoo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: boohoo

whats the point of going through all that to get a degree just to wind up slinging hash anyway?
according to azadan, it happens all the time...

a degree does not guarantee anyone a job.....thats a fact

i do have a question though...

if a soon to be college student has a 100% free ride, why do they need parents tax returns? what is the point of that?

i am not telling anyone not to go to college....if you want to go, then go

i just want it recognized that a degree does not guarantee a job....

i also would like it recognized that no degree does not equal a lifetime of minimum wage jobs and poverty.

how about going out and getting some friggin skills?



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:01 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
dont get me wrong man. i wish i could 'learn stuff' for the rest of my life...fact is i have people that depend on me though. if you have the means to not work or work light hours and take a gag of classes then thats awesome. i just dont think your parents should be forced by a court to pay for it


I'm fine with saying parents shouldn't pay for college, but only if a parents financial situation isn't counted against the child. In this case that's a federal law and the judge didn't have the standing or willingness to overturn it. Which means the next best thing is to make the parents pay according to the FASFA expected financial contribution. It's not really fair to the parents, but the opposite isn't fair to their child.



yeah, operators are going to work full time.....i thought you were a programmer though...and out here in the real world, if youre making 25 bones an hour, youre doing good.


Sorry, not up on the correct usage of all the terms. I know GCode but I need a cheat sheet for a few of them like this. I learned it years ago and rarely use it so that's probably not unexpected. Like I said it's not something I put on my resume, but it's something I could do if it came up.

Also, don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm too good for 25/hour, I work for minimum wage right now. I'm just saying that if I'm going to take a job that will severely reduce my ability to do what I want to do in the future it would need to have a pretty substantial wage. When all is done and I have my own business I truly have no idea what I'll end up earning for a wage it could be almost nothing if the business fails or it could be a lot but I believe in doing a job you have passion for and want to do. I even do that with my current job though it's not a career.


life doe snot always work out the way you want though...ask those people with degrees that are slinging hash and not working in their chosen field.


That could very well happen to me. We'll see.


this is not a knock but you seem to be a young dude with not too much real world work experience...the things i have mentioned seem other worldly to you...theyre not.


I'm just over 30. I started school at 24 or 25 after spending a couple years doing nothing and a couple more years extremely ill unable to do anything.


also, i went from 25 an hour to 12 an hour because it does not sound like you are actually a programmer.
if you dont know g or m code then youre entry level....thats closer to the 12 range.....wouldnt be hard to take it from there to a programmer spot though.....


I've never looked at m code (I think), I've used g code a bit but it was years ago. Like I said before I would have to brush up on it if that was my intention. The coding syntax is very similar to how I model complex geometry in Maya using NURBS so I'm familiar with that but I can't answer the difference between G40 and G52 without a cheat sheet so I'm probably somewhere around 50% knowledgeable on it, maybe less. Enough that I can do entry level stuff, but not enough that I would feel comfortable going to a company and saying they should hire me as an expert in it. Either way, I haven't touched it in a couple years, I used it in some engineering classes but no real world experience it's certainly not what I would call a $25/hour skillset as is.


A person should be able to work their way through college that's how it used to be.. but well the little lady at the financial aide office laughed at me when I suggested my kid earn the money with his full time job and go part time claiming it just can't be done that way while pushing the loan application my way This is the problem the gov't has allowed, no they enabled, the cost of living to so badly outpace the wages of the average people that now we just can't afford some things. So instead of working at undoing the damage that have helped cause they are telling us tough crap! Pay for it anyways! Just like with the healthcare. Only I don't see any money trees growing outside in my yard or anybody's elses.
Something's got to give or they are gonna have a revolt on their hands I am afraid.


Student loans are the whole problem. I've talked about this before but for this year I've been offered over $50,000 in student loans (my tuition is $8k, another $8k for living expenses) completely unsecured. It's absolutely disgusting but there's a hidden problem here. When you're giving students access to ridiculous sums of cash you're enabling the schools to charge more in order to grab that cash. Our policy of free and easy student loans that are guaranteed to make a profit has resulted in college becoming more unaffordable.

Don't get me wrong, I want us to have the ability for students to goto college, it's a national security issue in my mind, without an educated work force the nation will fall apart. There's better ways to go about it though, such as the colleges themselves financing loans and removing bankruptcy protections so that they compete with each other on price and have an incentive to make sure the graduate can pay it back.
edit on 17-11-2014 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:06 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
if a soon to be college student has a 100% free ride, why do they need parents tax returns? what is the point of that?


Fraud prevention on pell grants and other forms of financial aid. The idea is that there are need based programs to attend college but because they're need based it means everyone needs to be means tested. One of the situations they're attempting to prevent is the children of the wealthy getting a bunch of government money because they're a poor student while the parents just pay for everything.

Basically, it's a way to make sure that only the poor get need based assistance, this is also the theory behind the family expected financial contribution that gets calculated and is the basis behind needing to be 25 before your parents income doesn't count against you.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan
Which is just another good argument for universal funding for tertiary education. Less admin, fairer access, overall benefits to society.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:14 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Aazadan
Which is just another good argument for universal funding for tertiary education. Less admin, fairer access, overall benefits to society.



Ya, there's a few options. Some involve more government involvement and some involve less. To be perfectly honest I would be fine with either, but I have to admit that if you use real world examples the government subsidizing education has shown the largest benefits. Even Singapore a nation with no minimum wage and no social safety nets subsidizes education and helps students cover expenses and it has worked out fantastic for them.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: boohoo

well what can I say! there's nice big cracks all over the place when it comes to getting help from the gov't. Doesn't matter weather we are talking about college or healthcare or even simple childcare! Some will always end up going without so that there will always be a need for programs to be expanded.
You have someone here talking about another option- the trades. While everyone is going into debt getting that degree in worthlessness one could always become buddies with the plumber and talk him into training you!

But gee ya know what? I could have had a few scholorships along the way also except my mom didn't want to pay a dang 10 bucks for the entrance tests! She said I didn't need college that I'd marry a nice rich man who would support both of us. Then she proceeded to arrange a marriage with on of those rich men! That's when I moved out at 16 years old! So well I don't believe any generation didn't have their roadblocks.

The gov't and courts have no right telling people that they have to go into debt not for health insurance coverage and not for kid's college..



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: boohoo
You have someone here talking about another option- the trades. While everyone is going into debt getting that degree in worthlessness one could always become buddies with the plumber and talk him into training you!


If someone doesn't get into a formal Apprentice program that leads to Journeyman status, they must then attend a trade school to enter the profession (less unions and overall membership, means proportionately LESS of these apprenticeships being available). The same FAFSA rules apply in these cases. Trade school tuition is funded by individuals in the same manner as 4-year College degrees TODAY.


originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: boohoo
if a soon to be college student has a 100% free ride, why do they need parents tax returns? what is the point of that?

i am not telling anyone not to go to college....if you want to go, then go

i just want it recognized that a degree does not guarantee a job....

i also would like it recognized that no degree does not equal a lifetime of minimum wage jobs and poverty.

how about going out and getting some friggin skills?


Because the government says so, PERIOD.

This is a FACT and is not debatable, even if you don't understand the how or why. In order for a student TODAY to accept their earned scholarship money, they have to fill out a FAFSA. BOTH parents must submit tax information and sign the FAFSA, there is NO WAIVER that can eliminate this requirement for someone under 24 with pending scholarship money. Full and partial scholarships, post-high school must be taken as soon as they are offered, you can't simply get them as an 18 year old and defer until you turn 25 years old, if your parents won't sign the FAFSA.

I will further clarify my point about why kids being born do more harm to those already here and working.

I will begin with the usual assertion I hear in regards to the impact of the soon to be real, “future-tech jobs", which contrary to beliefs of some, includes the trades and related "proprietary tech" that will not be repairable, only "replaceable by a certified/licensed tech".

“Someone has to get paid to fix the robots!”

I often hear this above noted rebuttal to mass automation in the workplace.

Many people generally do not bother to ask themselves because they have no first hand experience, would future robotics consulting companies prefer to hire low work-experienced graduates, whom have demonstrated HANDS-ON, non-professional robotics experience, in the form of a “hobby portfolio”; OR graduates with no “hobby portfolio” experience, whom worked hard to graduate with a difficult major, but didn’t have as much free time to develop skills specifically related to their major and instead having a long list of work experience, flipping burgers etc, unrelated to their major?

I’m seeing this already happening in many different engineering fields, where the young workers being hired today are from wealthy families and great colleges, while at the same time are being trained by older folks whom were NOT necessarily as privileged in their youth, but got through school the old way and were trained on the job, while paid, over long periods of time. This certainly is no longer an option in 2014 and beyond, because companies would prefer to churn experienced staff from other companies, rather than train fresh graduates in-house.

Here is a modern example of a company with a big guaranteed contract to fill and absolutely no "will" to increase wages to attract experience personnel, nor the desire to train inexperienced ones on the job. Instead they put out a story on the web bellyaching about skilled labor shortages:

bridgemi.com...

In the link below this paragraph I have posted an example of what I believe to be a young person, from a well off family, who majored in robotics at USC. She doesn’t appear to have had an unrelated part-time job to her major, while in college. She also seem to have had lots time to “experiment” with technology in her spare time, got a masters degree back to back to the bachelors AND at the end of the day, got a job offer at a University sponsored dinner party for robotics majors. NOBODY I went to college with, EVER, got a job offer at a university sponsored dinner party. In contrast I’m sure many Ivy league and top 10 school graduates do however. My point being, these future “robot repair jobs” are going to require smart kids, with desire to advance, whom also went to good schools, had lots of spare time and money to play with the tech outside of school AND got their jobs offered at dinner parties, some of which will be non-paying internships at first. These jobs will not be gotten through sending out blind jobs applications or web job boards, as was done in the 20th century. Basically what this girl is doing for Disney will in the near future be more like what a plumber or electrician of today does, EXCEPT you won’t get trained on the job, in a low-pay apprenticeship when at “entry level”. In fact to even be considered for these “future-tech jobs” in the first place you’ll need to have good academic pedigree, lots of unpaid hobby time and 1+ years of unpaid internships.

Here is her story, readers can decide for themselves, my opinion is that this is what a career for a plumber is going to look like in 15+ years:

onedublin.org...

Keeping up with the basics in terms of education and on-the-job work skills won’t be enough for jobs requiring future tech, labor market, skill-sets (i.e. robot repair). The poor and even the middle class (not the upper middle class) will simply NOT be able to keep up with the skill demands for future employment, REQUIRED CERTIFICATIONS, STATE LICENSING, etc, while earning wages AND keeping a roof over their heads. In the future these very high costs skills needed to stay “relevant” in ALL labor markets, will only be affordable to the rich, or at the very least, to VERY far forward thinking middle class families, willing to sacrifice everything financially to keep their offspring competitive in the larger job market.

I believe “rich kid job mobility" is going to be a bigger problem for regular folks, beyond even what the previous "rich kid" pedigree typically brought in the 20th century. This unfettered access to endless money and time to “explore” academics and hands-on work, with NO consequences, is going to END job mobility of any kind for the lower and middle classes, even those whom have met the typical required higher education and work experience standards. Its going to be a superstar only job market, with no room for middle of road folks.

The middle and lower classes can do themselves a GREAT service, by REDUCING the number of children born, even those that they don't produce themselves and by AGGRESSIVELY opposing legal and illegal immigration.

Why?

Because companies will then be forced to train people domestically and make active efforts to put an end to age discrimination, due to labor shortages. The implementation of less or no kids being born, means higher employment for those that remain and less means for the "owner of capital" to pit the lower and middle classes against each other.
edit on 17-11-2014 by boohoo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: boohoo
Trade school tuition is funded by individuals in the same manner as 4-year College degrees TODAY.



unless your company pays for it...
happens all the time.

they need to revamp the whole damn system...

when my wife and i first met she was in school. a community college...childrens lit....
she had student loans....her dad did have to furnish tax info....she told me that much..

she was taking only a couple classes, a couple days a week..she had her books and everything she needed...
every so often, i want to say maybe 4 months, she would get a check...she got one for 1600 and shortly after that one came in for about 900....i asked her what it was for and she said that is part of the loan to help you buy the supplies she needed....
she didnt need anything but the money came...

she also said that when the semester first starts, classes are full. apparently to get your loan check you have to attend classes for the first couple weeks.....after those couple weeks, the checks get sent out...

she said there was always about a 30-40% drop of people once the checks came....

so, people would go through all the bs or enrolling and filling out fasfa and then stay just long enough to get the loan check and book out....

the system is broken and should not be forced upon the parents to fix.

i do appreciate you answering my questions but i still do not agree.

i will furnish my tax info all day long if they simply need verification for my daughter to qualify for this or that..
if she is a good kid(adult) and wants to follow my rules then she can live with me till she is 90 years old...rent free. no food bill.
as far as paying for the actual college....well thats got to be on her...through work or part time school or a different major....whatever....

once she turns 18 my daughter can live with me rent free as long as she is either working or in school.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 05:11 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
unless your company pays for it...
happens all the time.


Not as often as you would think. I looked up how common it is

"Tuition assistance stands as an important element in the financing of higher education. The American Council of Education estimates that roughly 20 percent of graduate students and 6 percent of the much larger number of undergraduates receive some financial assistance from their employers to attend school."

1 in 5 cover employees going for a masters but only 1 in 17 help at all with a bachelors. I think it's fantastic when employers cover costs but for the most part they cover individual classes not majors and mostly just for higher degrees.

Or, here's a link of the best corporations for tuition reimbursement.
www.businessinsider.com...

They don't even cover as much as a Pell Grant, and most of them leave you ineligible for other assistance, while not actually paying enough for you to also pay out of pocket for classes. Note that the companies in that list that are better about what they pay also for the most part require that you already have the skills to get hired in the first place. Disney, Apple, and so on aren't hiring low skilled people that actually need the help for education.


she was taking only a couple classes, a couple days a week..she had her books and everything she needed...
every so often, i want to say maybe 4 months, she would get a check...she got one for 1600 and shortly after that one came in for about 900....i asked her what it was for and she said that is part of the loan to help you buy the supplies she needed....
she didnt need anything but the money came...


They're called refund checks. I don't know what it used to be like but ever since I went to college they've been given out. At my previous school under a quarter system they were given out 6 weeks in and at my current school they're given out 4 weeks in. Your refund is whatever financial aid you get that you don't spend on tuition or other things the school charges for. I've known a bunch of people who take loans just so that they can get the party money from a refund check, at one school an acquaintance works at during spring semester they give the refund a few days before spring break. Personally I've never gotten one over $200 then again I don't take excessive (or any) student loans and ever since they reformed the system (lower grant funding) I've always owed money rather than had excess.

As far as people taking classes and dropping, it's kind of an epidemic and rather than address it the government has simply decided to limit how long you can get assistance for, which feeds back to the idea that it's a very bad idea to goto school part time. Because of people who attend class and then drop to get a refund check the government responded. Rather than increase Pell Grants to actually cover tuition increases they instead limited the lifetime award amount to 6 years regardless of how many classes you take each year. What this ultimately means is that someone who tries to save some money and attend a community college and then transfer into a larger school will run out of time and ultimately pay more out of pocket. So the current policy hurts the honest students while not really doing anything about the dishonest ones.


she also said that when the semester first starts, classes are full. apparently to get your loan check you have to attend classes for the first couple weeks.....after those couple weeks, the checks get sent out...

she said there was always about a 30-40% drop of people once the checks came....


I wouldn't go as far as to say every student that drops is doing this, teachers really like to pile on the work early in a course and weed people out but there is a substantial amount of it that goes on. I've spent some time teaching at a community college and people talk in the classes I've taken. I would say that a solid 20% of each class (out of the 50% that drop) are just attending for the refund money.

Note that the schools actually encourage this behavior. Their business model relies on people taking lots of classes, and if they take the same class and drop over and over again the school is making money while that person makes no progress towards leaving. They also love it because they get to claim high enrollment numbers when the semester starts, which in turn increases the federal funding they get.
edit on 17-11-2014 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 06:17 PM
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a reply to: boohoo

What you're talking about is definitely an issue. I know that in my field you need the education for employers to look at you but just having an education doesn't do anything on it's own, you need to demonstrate experience. Group projects (that cannot be classwork), a library of github examples, some assets published on say the Unity store, and some finished products. In addition to that you usually need to do a bit of free work for a company. A guy I know for example just to get an interview had to write a pretty substantial amount of code for a project they were working on, then in the interview had to do more free work, followed by writing design documents for them in the second interview. They eventually didn't hire him, but between everything they got about a month of free work out of him. Throw in all the other people they interviewed for the same position and that's a year+ of free labor.

Anyways, in addition to all of that you're expected to stay current and experiment on your own time especially as a student and that vastly favors the people who can attend school without working. In my case the general expectation is one side project per semester or one big project per year.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 06:26 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: boohoo

What you're talking about is definitely an issue. I know that in my field you need the education for employers to look at you but just having an education doesn't do anything on it's own, you need to demonstrate experience. Group projects (that cannot be classwork), a library of github examples, some assets published on say the Unity store, and some finished products. In addition to that you usually need to do a bit of free work for a company. A guy I know for example just to get an interview had to write a pretty substantial amount of code for a project they were working on, then in the interview had to do more free work, followed by writing design documents for them in the second interview. They eventually didn't hire him, but between everything they got about a month of free work out of him. Throw in all the other people they interviewed for the same position and that's a year+ of free labor.

Anyways, in addition to all of that you're expected to stay current and experiment on your own time especially as a student and that vastly favors the people who can attend school without working. In my case the general expectation is one side project per semester or one big project per year.


THANK YOU for posting your experience. I have been saying this for a couple of years now and all I get is people arguing with me about how its not true. This is a huge issue for people "earning their own way" through college and not on their parents dollar. They simply can not compete with rich kids anymore, no matter how you slice it. Employers these days "prefer" this kid of graduate, so there is a HUGE public policy issue brewing on the horizon for the 99% that can't send their kid to MIT and then pay their living expenses for 2 years after graduation, just so they can get a shot at an entry level job.
edit on 17-11-2014 by boohoo because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: Grovit

I would tell this child that they are lucky their parent did not get an abortion to end their life so just be thankful to be alive. And if they are not then they can off themselfs.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 06:50 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

sounds like a bunch of # to me...
seems like an awful lot to go through to maybe get job...

for me, i didnt have time to mess around...i just went out and got after it...

ive worked for 2 different companies that paid for me to go to school...







 
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