The Issue Of The Future: Recreation Without Work Or Mass Starvation/Death

I would like to paint a picture of the not-so-distant future, which I think is basically inevitable. To me it is already an issue, but it won't be a really major issue until we reach this point. But then, we will reach a crossroads, and we will have to choose. Are we going to move past the 'protestant work ethic,' where you work hard to be paid so that you can live and hopefully have some recreational enjoyment as well? Or are we going to stick with it, and ensure absolutely massive amounts of death?

The process has already begun, and it will just continue. In the not-so-distant future, computer technology WILL be able to do a very significant portion of the jobs which currently exist. There is going to be far more people than there are jobs. Saying there would be enough jobs for half of the population is being optimistic. What are we going to do? We will have to make the decision I outline in the title. Either we say, damnit you have to work to earn a living. No handouts. And if we do this, over half of the population will literally be unable to work, society won't help them, and they'll just have to die.

Technically there are two other option. One is just an expansion of our current modality, let's say an expansion of the welfare-state. The other option, is a total overthrow of the way we see society. Either we're just going to provide some basic welfare for all of these non-workers, hike the tax rate on those who still do work. And then the half+ of the population will just get by on minimum, provided by the state. Or, we are going to have to just drop this mentality of me vs. you. I'm gonna look out for myself, everyone else is irrelevant. That which society produces, will be for the good of society at large. We, along with the amazing help which will be able to be provided by computer technology and artificial intelligence, will produce things for the purpose of being enjoyed, and not for the purpose of profit.

Whatever jobs still need to be done, will be done. The ever-increasing loss of job availability for humans will not be seen as scary, as it currently is, but rather will be something to aspire towards. We will work to have the highest quantity and greatest quality of things people want and need, with the least amount of human effort possible. We will seek to have the highest possible quality of life for everyone, as competition will become increasingly irrelevant. This can really, truly, open up the possibility for a utopia. That's one possibility. Or we will not give up our ideals. The increase in computer capabilities will not be for the purpose of increasing the general quality of life for humans, but rather to increase profit for those who are still in position to profit. Everyone else will fight for their life, literally. And there will be massive amounts of death, which will continuously increase as more and more jobs go away as computer technology becomes increasingly capable.

and here come the people to complain about the size of population in such a state.

Is a defeating fact. We are in the process of planning a colonization effort of mars.

Where do you think the excess population will go? To colonize nearby planets and soon to be stars.

With the weapons we are developing we should beable to defend our colonies. But first we need a foothold of Earth.

E.T threaten us, and working together is the only thing that will get us off this rock.


E.T have been protecting us since our inception. So if we connect with our creators our technology will advance dramatically. During this point in time we need to define our purpose. Do we go against our creators ambitions and start an inter-galatic war? Do we persue these ventures despite violating E.T territory?

The me vs you dosn't pan out to well when our survival depends upon unification and intention towards what path we are chosing to take.

Whats the rich going to do. Run away? Hide underground and hope everythings all good. Our creators sure would be stoked to see the cyborgs emerging from the underground. They probably would greet them with open arms of destructions.
Why say that? Do you see any cyborg civilizations? Anyone the decendent of cyborgs? I don't think so.

If humans have rebuilt *modern* civilization over and over we should see some superhumans running around. But we don't.
And if we find remains of such, they are all dead. So that's saying something... lol.

a reply to: AnuTyr

There is no excess population. We have enough space and resources for everyone. We just manage it poorly and unfairly.

a reply to: TheJourney

I think the current state of America tells us that people would rather watch others including family members starve then let them live without working.

People just aren't thinking ahead. Eventually there will be almost no jobs left as automation will handle almost everything. Many jobs we have now are already incredibly obsolete. We create new unnecessary ones or drag out the obsolete ones. Just look at the USPS.

Hopefully we'll have moved past our current system by then but it's not looking too great.

OP, you realize you're discussing a Resource Based Economy, Moneyless Society, etc? It's the Zeitgeist Movement's idea although plenty of other people are seeing the light.

We could have full employment (20 hours a week say), with free housing, food, education, medical care and travel for everyone. Imagine being able to learn any skill set, switch careers for free? The internet makes that very possible; most jobs don't require long hours in a classroom, although some need apprenticeships.

Why do we have to 'pay' for anything? Why not advocate for a society where resources are considered something to be taken care of, not used up? Why not say to the horrifically rich 'no you can't have a Lamborghini until everyone has food and housing and medical care...' and what kind of person would object to that equation?

How about we kill off Madison Avenue and the advertisers and instead learn to value people by what they offer their community? How about being stewards of the planet instead of consumers?

At this point, the ZM is working to educate people that there are other ways of looking at an 'economy' rather than as a planet to be rapaciously destroyed for a few people's profits. They have published ways that they feel the changeover could occur. And basically they're just waiting for capitalism to die the death it's deserved for a very long time now. Obviously, capitalism doesn't work, it just devolves into something disgusting.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: TheJourney

I think the current state of America tells us that people would rather watch others including family members starve then let them live without working.

People just aren't thinking ahead. Eventually there will be almost no jobs left as automation will handle almost everything. Many jobs we have now are already incredibly obsolete. We create new unnecessary ones or drag out the obsolete ones. Just look at the USPS.

Hopefully we'll have moved past our current system by then but it's not looking too great.

Definitely agree. To me, this is really something important in and of itself. But, in the scenario I outline in OP, which seems inevitable, it will really come to the forefront. I would like to think people will understand and desire this by then. If not, there will be some serious negative consequences. It's literally utopia vs. dystopia at that point, I have to believe when that time comes people will see that. If so, something truly amazing would result.

originally posted by: signalfire
OP, you realize you're discussing a Resource Based Economy, Moneyless Society, etc? It's the Zeitgeist Movement's idea although plenty of other people are seeing the light.

We could have full employment (20 hours a week say), with free housing, food, education, medical care and travel for everyone. Imagine being able to learn any skill set, switch careers for free? The internet makes that very possible; most jobs don't require long hours in a classroom, although some need apprenticeships.

Why do we have to 'pay' for anything? Why not advocate for a society where resources are considered something to be taken care of, not used up? Why not say to the horrifically rich 'no you can't have a Lamborghini until everyone has food and housing and medical care...' and what kind of person would object to that equation?

How about we kill off Madison Avenue and the advertisers and instead learn to value people by what they offer their community? How about being stewards of the planet instead of consumers?

At this point, the ZM is working to educate people that there are other ways of looking at an 'economy' rather than as a planet to be rapaciously destroyed for a few people's profits. They have published ways that they feel the changeover could occur. And basically they're just waiting for capitalism to die the death it's deserved for a very long time now. Obviously, capitalism doesn't work, it just devolves into something disgusting.

I am not entirely familiar with the zeitgeist movement, haven't watched the movies or anything. But I am somewhat familiar. And certainly some of the ideas resonate with me, and I am very passionate about a certain ideal which is certainly related to those ideals. Though I cannot speak on all of the specifics they offer.

a reply to: TheJourney

Zeitgeist is very very heavy on pure conspiracy theory. Watch Zeitgeist : Moving Forward. It's entirely focused on the ideas in this thread and has a lot of quality science in it.

a reply to: TheJourney

"It's literally utopia vs. dystopia at that point"

I couldn't agree more. Within our lifetimes there are only three possibilities for our future. One is utopia/near utopia. One is dystopia/near dystopia. One is societal collapse/ extinction.

The momentum seems to be towards dystopia and the majority of people seem to want that. Anyone who is pushing the status quo or regression is advocating for dystopia even if they don't realize it.

a reply to: TheJourney

The picture you draw is clear to me Journey. I have thought this for most of my life. Back in the mid 60's when I was coming of age and considering a career, the social sciences seemed pertinent to me. The idea that the need for work was and would continue to decline due to modern technology and planning was already well established. The idea that recreation would be filling up more and more of our time,as you point out, was inevitable. The thinking back then, among those with whom studied was how to develop programs that would be beneficial to a population that did not need to work all the time, or take schooling to be able to work all the time, as had our parents. Cut, 50 years to the present.

Whaaa hoppind.

What happened was a misunderstanding of those who had risen to the top of the pyramid that has its foundation in the fruits of that pyramid. As production increased, and as the fruit of labor increased do to that technology, that fruit was not re-introduced to society as a whole, be it in corporate sponsored programs for society or even in R+D to discover how to distribute the product of capital and labor together. Rather it went the other way.

Along with this was, back then, the idea that sooner or later, as your point out, the need for money would diminish also. That more and more we would see an 'exchange of services' among people that would be voluntary, as, part and parcel of all the free time we would have.

I think that the system we now have in place does not want to give up its power, even in the face of extinction. Those at the head of this system are now so convoluted in their thinking that they are sure that only by continuing to re-enforce the system can any of us make it out of our world wide predicament. If they can have some of us come along into the utopia they envision, then fine, but the rest of us can just be left by the wayside. Never mind an alternative utopia. Your utopia, my utopia. Only theirs.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: AnuTyr

There is no excess population. We have enough space and resources for everyone. We just manage it poorly and unfairly.

not if everyone that has ever died here was manifested in the flesh. the planet would br visably moving there would be so many people.

What needs to change is our perception of work & the work week.

We are so much more efficient than we ever used to be yet the middle class is poorer...

With the wealth gap increasing faster than it ever has before anyone with eyes can see where the extra wealth has ended up (in case you don't have eyes...your increased efficiency is now in the pockets of the ultra, ultra rich...plenty of statistics out there to sate your factual appetite if you don't believe me)

Fact is that a 40 hour work week is no longer necessary & wages should be much higher.
Wages are pathetically low & nowhere near to fair compensation for the value that is actually added to the company by most corporate employees.

The problem is that the mega corporate environment is designed in such a way that in many cases it simply does not have to take increased efficiency into account when valuing employes & their compensation.

Rather than acknowledging that a 2014 employe does 10x's the work of a 1994 employee and compensating fairly for it they simply hide the difference in every increasing profits to keep investors happy & stockpile cash.

AND not only are the employees more efficient than ever before, many companies are still cutting corners wherever they can! There are many examples of products that are simply inferior quality when compared to their counterparts from decades earlier (obviously, excluding technology)

Over and over companies have show that they are willing to under-deliver on their service/products as long as their competition is doing it too - reducing serving sizes, making extras cost more, using inferior materials, planning obsolescence, outsourcing labor, etc. etc. etc.

What it really boils down to is that the greedy bastards just don't want to pay out...they would rather horde it than deal with people fairly.

It's time the middle class called them out on it....the money is there.

Trickle down my ass...

a reply to: AnuTyr

How did zombies enter into this?

a reply to: coldkidc

Planned obsolence irks me more than anything. My aunt has had the same drive for about 40 years and it works better than ours. Plus we have to replace ours every five years or so.

God damn we need to move to a resource based economy.

a reply to: signalfire

I just searched on ZM and found their main website....but its not very explanatory.

Its interesting though. Thanks for the reference.