anyone else saved and fallen?

There are very, very few things that would doom you once you are saved. Most of them are very clearly stated in the Bible, and most of them take a concerted effort on your part to try to lose your grace. Running around telling people you are God and believing it is maybe one of them.

The Blood of Jesus Christ is the solution to all man’s problems.

Without it, no one will make it to Heaven.

"Accepting Jesus" is a religious term and is NOT in the Word of God.

"Read the Bible as many times as you will, but nowhere does any person say this or offer this. Jesus never asked people to accept Him as a personal Savior to be saved. None of the apostles ever made this statement. No evangelist or any other preacher recorded in sacred writ ever uttered this sentence. It is not found in any of the epistles to the churches. It is simply just not there. Accepting Jesus is NOT in the Word of God

What REALLY happens when a person is born again?

"Accept Jesus as your personal Savior, and you will be saved"

Nowhere do the Scriptures even hint that we simply accept Jesus Christ as Savior, and we’re automatically saved.

Diabolical Doctrine 7) Eternal security... once saved, always saved

We can be very secure in the Lord Jesus Christ, but faith in this doctrine, rather than in Him, can be a license to sin. This is a doctrine that’s false in the way it’s used, being carried on the back of a lie and compounding the error and confusion that comes from the lie. The sequence goes like this: “Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved.” LINK

The problem is that nowhere does the Bible speak about “accepting Jesus as your savior”. The Bible is clear that only those whose names are written (by God) in the book of life will be saved. And He does not write any names there that have not been washed from their sins by the Blood of His Son. God’s plan of how we are to be saved: the Blood of Jesus shed at the Cross of Calvary. LINK

Cheap grace is the idea that "grace" did it all for me so I do not need to change my lifestyle. The believer who accepts the idea of "cheap grace" thinks he can continue to live like the rest of the world. Instead of following Christ in a radical way, the Christian lost in cheap grace thinks he can simply enjoy the consolations of his grace. ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Ex-witch Ana Mendez's testimony also contains a powerful illustration of this...

@35:30 min:

The greatest lie the devil has infiltated is that a sinner is a saved person, that a sinner can be a Spirit filled person. There is no where in the Bible and I challenge anyone here, theres no one in the Bible that considers a sinner a saved person.

@46:40 min:

Sin trespasses the spirit... we have changed the gospel and that is why we have so many people so full of demons. Because the gospel has been so watered down...

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6-10

We train people to repeat little things and we have turned the most powerful gospel, the most powerful essence of God in the world into little formulas that have millions of people bound up to lies. That's how we train our disciples today, this is what you have to say, this is what you don't have to say, we teach them how to discuss, but not how to manifest the Glory that destroys the enemy.

Christians in Hell

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.

There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.

Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.

It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God.

Placebo by Howard Pittman

Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”

Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.

Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.

Source

a reply to: introspectionist

My suggestion is keep seeking. In your journey look at things from alternative positions. You may discover things you had never considered before, about your current beliefs or just in general. I was a Christian for a long while but as I got older and more curious about things I came to realize there's nothing special about it. That's not to say there aren't good lessons to be learned from the Bible, or powerful experiences to be had. You might be still seeking because deep down you're not convinced of what you claim to believe. That's how it was for me for a long time. The doctrines didn't align with the Bible. The Bible didn't align with itself a lot of the time. There was this, that, and the other thing, that stood out as red flags to me. Eventually I settled on believing if the Christian God was real, I was doomed to hell because of my inquisitive nature. One day I came across some lectures given by atheists (Aron Ra and Matt Dillahunty), and I realized their approach and issues with religion were a lot like mine. I realized I was an atheist and haven't looked back since. That was my personal journey. How I rescued my situation was admitting to myself I didn't need to fear hell, or yearn to please a God (who is paradoxical btw) by worshiping him. I have yet to see one iota of evidence for the existence of God, any God, that couldn't be explained without God.

Why should belief in one be the default position?

I am not telling you there is nothing to being spiritual in some way, shape or form. I think that there most definitely is. If it's all in the mind, or attached to something external, I do not know. Does it really matter though? As long as we don't cling to age old myths and traditions as reality, what's the harm? YOU control your life. Don't let the superstitions of days gone by control you.

Free yourself from the shackles my friend!

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Btw, if you're interested in more atheist viewpoints:
Atheist Experience
Aron Ra on YouTube

Good luck in your journey, wherever it may lead.

originally posted by: introspectionist
I don't even know if I ever was saved, but I kind of felt like it for a little while about a year and a half ago. And then it's been up and down, sometimes I've felt like I've made progress.

You felt like it, thats an interesting statement.

I dont read in the text that salvation is a feeling, That we are saved by feelings, we are saved by Gods grace and His promise to us.
Accept Jesus, find a church that teaches Christ is our Savior and study Gods word.
You are not saved by feelings, Jesus has done the work.
Act according to Gods teachings, strive to be a servant, love God and love others, salvation is about your relationship with God, prayer and actions.
Feelings lie, God doesnt.
Get in to fellowship with other Christians and grow in your knowledge of Jesus

Christianity is hard work, Paul called it a race where you have to strive hard to win.
Sounds like you are coasting, complacent. Put a little more effort in.
Dont rely on feelings.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
I dont know what your definition of saved is, but judging from your use of the term "christ consciousness", Im assuming its not the traditional biblical definition.

Some Christians say they don't believe in Christ consciousness, but the Bible actually says:

"Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" - Philippians 2:4-5

When you love thy neighbor as thyself instead of only loving thyself, not seeking your own interests but also the interests of others then you have the same mind in you which was in Christ, Compassion - Christ Consciousness.

a reply to: arpgme

I can agree with that. Knowing the mind of Christ can be called Christ consciousness, but there is also a theosphical distortion of Christ consciousness. I was simply questioning the context.

a reply to: Murgatroid

In response to "Christians in Hell" and the NDE. In my opinion this is not proof of heaven or hell, but proof that the mind is a powerful thing. As far as my understanding goes, hell is not a place of everlasting torment.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
Hell is not in fact everlasting fiery torment. The Bible is clear that God utterly destroys his enemies. Utterly. The first death people experience is the physical death. But the Bible refers to a second death as well. This second death is that of your soul. The second death happens when you're cast into the crucible of Hell. It's only eternal and everlasting in the sense that it's a permanent death. Not in the sense that it's continual torment. It's permanent separation from God because you were judged and found wanting. The gift of the spirit is eternal life and the punishment for sin is death (not insufferable immortality).

Here is a lengthy Bible study on the subject if you're interested: Hell Know!

You can see how it doesn't make sense for this man to have actually been shown heaven or hell. How do you explain his vision of hell not aligning with what's said about it in the Bible? It aligns more with the dogma of hell that has evolved over the centuries, and is often used as a scare tactic to convert people.

I say that some Christians choose to use Jesus as an idol (savior without need of works) and some are pushing duality ideas based on faith pretty hard here.

Jesus teachings excluding Paul is very close on Meta level (the teachings meaning instead of the words) to Nanak, Rumi and Buddhas that makes me think Jesus knew what he was describing, just like I think Rumi and Nanak and Gautama Buddha. But then from my point of view all en-lighten-ed beings are Buddhas (part of the brother/sister-hood) even if they do not make as much waves as Jesus, Rumi, Nanak, Gautame and Mahatma Gandhi or shine as bright. Many seeds where sent and still are.

To me what christian:s call the holy spirit is energized chi/light/kundalini state in the body that tempers the ego/mind towards oneness and love since you feel loved. If you cannot reach it from Jesus words since they might not work in your mind then choose another teacher and then go back to Jesus again when you are past that hurdle.

From my point of view:
I have myself had experiences that can be taken from Jesus own teachings so Jesus do know what he is talking about. I do however have the exact opposite opinion of Paul and think of him as very confused.

I think a little Creed is suitable.

When I read some of the replies I think about this video and wonder if we even have free will, and if we don't; why even bother trying to do anything, maybe I'm not even freely deciding what I'm typing right now.



I think this video will be food for thought for any spiritually minded person, and even might cause some reflections on what Jesus means.

I don't know anything. I feel slightly annoyed most of the time when I think about the things talked about in this thread. Just reading this thread makes me slightly annoyed for some strange reason that I don't know what it is. I am a very sensitive introvert person. A people hater. I have had many interesting experiences the last year and a half. For example I overcame my fear and met part of my family where they live for the first time in many years. But I had an experience that is hard to describe. It's as if whenever I open up to others and have a little bit of altruistic mindset I make myself vulnerable, and that I feel some form of perversion in the situation, so I end up withdrawing back into my autistic bubble, which is like a black hole, where it is like winter, no life, but at the same time I feel pure. This is why I feel such strong aversion to anything Christian and anything involving emotionally intelligent people. It all feels sentimental and perverted to me. One of the reasons I stopped going to church and mosque is because I don't like to be around people, I don't like people. When I got back home after having visited part of my family I had two short experiences (on the same day I think) that I think might be the result of that deed (overcoming the fear and visiting them), I don't remember in which order I had the two experiences but one was that I felt as if God opened up some floodgates and it can be compared to being in darkness and light comes on, or you are in winter with no life and spring comes. It felt like I remembered a feeling that I haven't had since being a child. And the other experience was perhaps a psychosis. That experience is hard to describe but it felt like I had taken a psychedelic drug, I felt almost as if looking into a tunnel, it felt as if my entire outer world, or at least all people, is part of myself, reflections of myself.

This is what I wrote about the black hole of autism in another thread:

To me it feels like there is something very perverted, unspiritual, about being happy. Hatred is purity. Kind of like winter in the arctic is pure and white whereas the tropics is a cesspool of poisonous insects, dirt, viruses and foul smell. I feel the same about being alone vs being around others. Whatever I do with others feels perverted.

I have written about how I think emotionally intelligent people are useful idiots, and this feeling is probably one reason I am perhaps not "accepting Christ", if that is the case, which I don't know. This is why I don't resonate with people in exoteric parts of religion such as churches and mosques. And I never felt like I could choose one particular religion or put a label on myself in the way those people do. I even doubted everything, and this doubt might not be good, but it feels like the right thing and the only thing I can do paradoxically. Anything else feels like being an ostrich and sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best.

I have written about how I feel in many threads.

This post is one example.

This post is another example.

In this thread it can be seen how I have different ideas from the Christians who write in that thread. For example this post.

Thanks for all the response in the thread.

Oh, and one thing about Islam. I felt that I was different from the Muslims I met. Not sure if I am but that's what I felt. All Muslims I have met love their parents, that's one thing. It seems like my ego is much bigger, which makes me feel that I am perhaps not suited for the same path or approach. They say that if you don't love you parents you don't believe in God, but the same does apparently not apply to Jews and Israel. While they say that if you don't love your parents you don't believe in God, it seems to end there. That leaves me unsatisfied. Which is why I look other ways. For me it's not as simple as just loving, and I certainly don't want to hear that I don't believe in God, and I don't want to see people's bothered looks. I'd rather be alone. And this is why I have been looking into loving kindness meditation for example. And I felt different from Christians too, as I said earlier. Because they all are very interested in labels or about what particular path someone chooses, whereas I didn't feel that I wanted to stop seeking and therefore didn't want to put a label on myself. I don't limit myself to the Bible, I read the Bible, the Quran, meditation books and anything I feel like reading. But as I said earlier it feels paradoxical because it feels like this doubt, this seeking, in and of itself might contribute to me falling astray. I think that perhaps this doubt, this seeking, might even be part of what "rejecting Christ" means. Which, again, feels weird to me because the alternative feels to me like being an ostrich and sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best. Sometimes I feel like I am shrinking. But I have wondered if that shrinking is a good thing. Some form of gradual death that might be good even though it feels negative for the most part. Sometimes I feel like I split up into two different people a year and a half ago, one of which might be shrinking and the other growing. I wrote about this in another thread and said that I think that the movie The Big Lebowski might be about this. And I commented that in The Matrix Neo has two identities, Thomas A Anderson and Neo.



It's quite clear to me that The Big Lebowski is dense with hidden meanings, and judging from the footage I'd guess it's influenced by Freemasonry.

a reply to: introspectionist

Some people go the hermit route to find what others will only know by label being more interested in the label than the experience. You seem to seek something more than faith and I think you will find it. Only a matter of time until you know things by experience instead of only believing.

Namaste

a reply to: introspectionist


Re: Those on 'The Spectrum' They're actually further evolved then the 'majority' and once "the rest catch up", then a marked improvement will befall Humankind.. You'll find it in said "Rule Book" under 'and the 'meek' shall inherit the Earth..."

If You'd like to stop the 'running around' You won't find 'anything' outside of the Self, ALL the answers are 'inside You already' You are 'The Creator' working Your way back from 'whence You came' The One Infinite Creator, Hunab Ku. The only Ones with the answers are the Ones who looked 'inside'. That is why "They" want You looking everywhere else. That is why 'They' fluoridate Your drinking water, to calcify Your Pineal Gland. See what the Catholics™ think about the Pineal Gland (look for the Pine Cone.. Heck even Pope Frank's Staff has a PINEal cone...)

"Seek and Ye shall find"

When Jesus said "You ARE the Church™" Do You think He meant We're to be 'tax-free' or that We should carry around what is 'proper'? Remember what 'They" did to Jesus when He called Him on it, 'they' whacked Him and pinned it on His bff, Judas, the only other Apostle besides Mary, J's 'Ol Lady' who got the whole 'You're NOT Your body' angle...

Let Go and Let God.

namaste

P.S. Learn, Teach and Have Fun.. Anything other than that and You're overworking the 'program'

The idea of being one of a few who are 'saved', while the majority of humanity perish in eternal damnation, is one of the main things that put me off Christianity.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
The idea of being one of a few who are 'saved', while the majority of humanity perish in eternal damnation, is one of the main things that put me off Christianity.

And the sad thing is that as one of the few who believes Christ has accepted my repentance and broken life is that I look at the many who think they have it all together and wonder how they can be so full of pride.

a reply to: Murgatroid

That's because simply accepting Jesus is not a word or ritual - it's a life in a sense.

You can say the words, but unless they follow into your life and your deeds, they mean nothing. Simply saying the words and going through the motions likely puts you in the category of lukewarm. I can't say that for certain, not knowing the mind of God, but if you think simply calling God's name on Sunday and living your life exactly the way you want without being mindful of Him the other six days (i.e. Christ as the Get Out of Sin Free card) is sufficient, I don't think what we know supports that.

a reply to: introspectionist

While I am not autistic, I am not the world's most people-friendly person. I am very introverted, and I have a very small handful of very tight friends, including my husband. That being said, I have a whole extended family that is healthy whom I love dearly. But in total, I prefer to spend my time more or less alone.

I do think of others though, constantly. You don't have to like others in a friendly way in order to consider them and what is good for them. Right now, I am concerned for my boss who sounded very ill when I left work on Friday. I quietly expressed my concern to her before leaving. We help people when we are out shopping or see them struggling on the side of the street even though we don't know them. You just can't turn away even if you aren't a people person.

There are plenty of things you can do to help others and learn to care even if you don't have any close, personal confidants.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: CJCrawley
The idea of being one of a few who are 'saved', while the majority of humanity perish in eternal damnation, is one of the main things that put me off Christianity.

And the sad thing is that as one of the few who believes Christ has accepted my repentance and broken life is that I look at the many who think they have it all together and wonder how they can be so full of pride.

I hope you're not referring to me. I certainly don't think I have it all together. One thing that I feel a lot of times when I seek is an overwhelming feeling of being small and weak, like I could seek forever and wouldn't be able to make sense of anything. Yet I hesitate to stop seeking, it doesn't even feel like an option at this point. I find this quite paradoxical, on one hand I can see how seeking and questioning can be seen as a form of arrogance, or belief that one's own reason is somehow adequate to make the right choices in these matters, although I don't think that's necessarily the view I have, and at the same time the other end of the spectrum, totally unquestioning and unseeking dogmatism, can be seen as a form of arrogance too. I do think that the former is perhaps the Jewish path and the latter the Muslim. E Michael Jones says in The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit that Judaism from the time of Christ and onward became a debating society rather than a religion. These two quotes are from Judaism: An Introduction by Oliver Leaman:

but he grappled on the way with a stranger, often taken to be an angel, after which he was called Israel - someone who struggles with God and men, and beats them.

Esau was indeed on the move toward Jacob with a considerable force. Before they met, however, Jacob wrestled with the angel, and during a long struggle dislocates his hip, but overcomes the angel in the end and is rewarded with the name of Israel, meaning ‘he who won in a struggle with God’.

The Quran talks about "unbelievers" and questioning and seeking can in some ways be seen as unbelieving.

I think that various mental disorders and illnesses are spritual conditions of one sort or another. For example schizotypy, which I guess I might have as well, with what neurotypicals label "loose associations" etc. seems to be nothing but:

A distinguishing feature of Gnosticism is an illusive, symbolic interpretation of reality, including history.

It's interesting that in this article, which is where the above quote is taken from, is found this statement:

The political scientists A. Besancon and L. Pellicani argue the intellectual roots of Russian Bolshevism are a structural repetition of the ancient Gnostic paradigm.

Similar ideas are presented in this interview:

www.redicecreations.com...

A quite common view is that Jews were behind communism. It's quite common that Jews are atheists or secular. And not all that rare that Jews practice Buddhism from what I understand. Here's an interview about connections between communism and Tibetan Buddhism:

www.redicecreations.com...

I do think that politics is very much connected to spirituality, and that the issue of being a truth seeker vs a believer seems to have some connection to left and right in politics, and emotional intelligence. I wrote about that here. One person that's interesting to observe in this context is Sam Harris, who was in the video I posted earlier. He seems to be that questioning seeking kind of person. But it's interesting to see how totally closed-minded he is when it comes to Islam. This kind of tunnel vision appears to be quite common among truth seekers. I see it a lot in the truth movement and sometimes in myself as well. That's what I wrote about in that post I linked to.

The overwhelming feeling of being small and weak and that I could seek forever and still not be able to make sense of anything has made me think a lot about the issue of how much emphasis should be put on reason. And I have been thinking a lot about mind control. I do believe that mind control is necessary for civilization to exist, but I also believe that the entire physical plane, including civilization, probably only exists to correct sin or ego. I have written about my thoughts on this in a number of threads including but not limited to these:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And the North Korea metaphor that I linked to earlier:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: introspectionist

When I read some of the replies I think about this video and wonder if we even have free will, and if we don't; why even bother trying to do anything, maybe I'm not even freely deciding what I'm typing right now.

I've struggled with the freewill vs predestination issue for a while. I finally came to the conclusion that they are two sides of the same coin. God predestined the elect to salvation because He knew what WE would choose. We may all have a destiney, but that does not override freewill. Just because God knows all possibilities of what choices you make, doesnt mean He chooses for you.

As far as being an introvertive people hater, that goes away with time, study, and application of God's word. I can speak from experience. I used to make myself sick from the anxiety and hatred I experienced as a result of social interactions. Now I can deliver a speech that could put a politician to shame.

The annoyance you experience is probably partially from the conflicting posts on this thread, and the "scar-tissue" factor. Its to be expected.

If you couple the study/application of God's word with 1John 1:9, you will see what I mean. The best way to find out is to test it for yourself.

I have also wondered if Jesus might possibly be, or be manifesting as, people in our outer world, specifically those "above" us in the physical hierarchy, and all of the forces in our outer world that control our minds. I wrote about that in this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That's very related to this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have also written about how I have wondered about the role of psychiatrists in the initiation. It seems to me that they serve a twofold role in the cosmos, and I'm not sure if it's consciously on their part. On the one hand they make those that aren't ready to be initiated go back to where they came from. This is in my view connected to the role of making the machine world grow ever tighter, as a means to make people grow, something that appears to be very much connected to the role of the Jews in the cosmos. The second role of the psychiatrist is that they might cause a few people to crack open their heads and begin the initiation due to being annoyed by the psychiatrists and their BS. Although I do think that this role is A) more or less the role of every human being just to varying degree, and B) this division can probably be caused by a number of different things. For some people it is the system of taxes, government agencies etc. and for some reason ending up on the wrong side of that colossal system that serves this role. Some form of clash with the system appears to be more or less necessary. As long as you're not clashing at all, i.e. high emotional intelligence, you're not being enlightened/initiated. Just how it appears to me. And this clash is in my view what any form of neurosis is a manifestation of. Psychosis is a different form of initiation and it is more or less connected to crises, as distinct from more general neurosis.

This is an illustration of what bothers me so much about Christianity, Christians, accepting Christ, loving people, having high social skills or emotional intelligence and getting along fine with people; because in my view this is the opposite of neurosis, which, as I said, in my view is the sign of undergoing enlightenment. This is why I totally understand the Jews who do not want to accept Christ as the savior and become Christians. It is as if you were Neo and you decide to take the blue pill, and "the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe".

Even though it doesn't always feel like this is true, and that I might be eating from the tree that causes forgetfulness and shrinking, this does somehow appear to be the tune inside my head. I posted a thread that I linked to earlier entitled "happy people disgust me". This feeling is what I have, you cannot be both happy and be initiated. Accepting Christ is Neo becoming an agent, Winston becoming a prole, Bernard becoming like Lenina etc. This is why sometimes I even feel that the people in my outer world, including you that post in this thread, are more or less an illusion that I will one day shake off my shoulders...

Lenina shrugged her shoulders. "A gramme is always better than a damn," she concluded with dignity, and drank the sundae herself. On their way back across the Channel, Bernard insisted on stopping his propeller and hovering on his helicopter screws within a hundred feet of the waves. The weather had taken a change for the worse; a south-westerly wind had sprung up, the sky was cloudy. "Look," he commanded. "But it's horrible," said Lenina, shrinking back from the win dow. She was appalled by the rushing emptiness of the night, by the black foam-flecked water heaving beneath them, by the pale face of the moon, so haggard and distracted among the hastening clouds. "Let's turn on the radio. Quick!" She reached for the dialling knob on the dash-board and turned it at random. "… skies are blue inside of you," sang sixteen tremoloing falsettos, "the weather's always …" Then a hiccough and silence. Bernard had switched off the current. "I want to look at the sea in peace," he said. "One can't even look with that beastly noise going on." "But it's lovely. And I don't want to look." "But I do," he insisted. "It makes me feel as though …" he hesitated, searching for words with which to express himself, "as though I were more me, if you see what I mean. More on my own, not so completely a part of something else. Not just a cell in the social body. Doesn't it make you feel like that, Lenina?" But Lenina was crying. "It's horrible, it's horrible," she kept repeating. "And how can you talk like that about not wanting to be a part of the social body? After all, every one works for every one else. We can't do without any one. Even Epsilons …" "Yes, I know," said Bernard derisively. "'Even Epsilons are useful'! So am I. And I damned well wish I weren't!" Lenina was shocked by his blasphemy. "Bernard!" She protested in a voice of amazed distress. "How can you?" In a different key, "How can I?" he repeated meditatively. "No, the real problem is: How is it that I can't, or rather-because, after all, I know quite well why I can't-what would it be like if I could, if I were free-not enslaved by my conditioning." "But, Bernard, you're saying the most awful things." "Don't you wish you were free, Lenina?" "I don't know what you mean. I am free. Free to have the most wonderful time. Everybody's happy nowadays." He laughed, "Yes, 'Everybody's happy nowadays.' We begin giving the children that at five. But wouldn't you like to be free to be happy in some other way, Lenina? In your own way, for example; not in everybody else's way." "I don't know what you mean," she repeated. Then, turning to him, "Oh, do let's go back, Bernard," she besought; "I do so hate it here." "Don't you like being with me?" "But of course, Bernard. It's this horrible place." "I thought we'd be more … more together here-with nothing but the sea and moon. More together than in that crowd, or even in my rooms. Don't you understand that?" "I don't understand anything," she said with decision, determined to preserve her incomprehension intact. "Nothing. Least of all," she continued in another tone "why you don't take soma when you have these dreadful ideas of yours. You'd forget all about them. And instead of feeling miserable, you'd be jolly. So jolly," she repeated and smiled, for all the puzzled anxiety in her eyes, with what was meant to be an inviting and voluptuous cajolery. He looked at her in silence, his face unresponsive and very grave-looked at her intently. After a few seconds Lenina's eyes flinched away; she uttered a nervous little laugh, tried to think of something to say and couldn't. The silence prolonged itself. When Bernard spoke at last, it was in a small tired voice. "All right then," he said, "we'll go back." And stepping hard on the accelerator, he sent the machine rocketing up into the sky. At four thousand he started his propeller. They flew in silence for a minute or two. Then, suddenly, Bernard began to laugh. Rather oddly, Lenina thought, but still, it was laughter. "Feeling better?" she ventured to ask. For answer, he lifted one hand from the controls and, slipping his arm around her, began to fondle her breasts. "Thank Ford," she said to herself, "he's all right again."

"What you need is a gramme of soma. All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects."

a reply to: introspectionist

You don't have to like someone to still care what happens to them.

I don't like a lot of people. As I mentioned, I am a fairly anti-social introvert, and I find most people to be annoying to interact with. But, that being said, I do care about what happens to them. I may not want them as my friends. I may not want to spend time with them, but I do want them to be happy and healthy and prosperous enough to make ends meet for themselves and their families. When I see them unhappy or hurting, I hurt.

I read that other thread on ATS about the 3-year-old boy who was tortured to death, and it made my cry. Seriously, it did. I didn't know that boy, but I care very much what happened to him and wish he was mine. I wish I could have done something to prevent it.

And because of that, I do the little things I can do to help people when I can. I say please and thank you. I generally go out of my way to make their days pleasant and to spread what little extra I have around to others who really could use it.

And no one has to know that you are doing anything. In fact, it's better that way, especially if you don't want to deal with people.

a reply to: introspectionist

When I was five, I began having terrible nightmares each night and by eight when my mother died, they just became unbearable. My aunt and uncle suggested to me that becoming saved and baptized would end these terrors, so I did. I believed I was sincere, but by thirteen, the church had driven me away from whatever faith I had at the time. I've always had a very logical mind and I couldn't accept that the living God of Christendom could accept a people who behaved as his people do. There is very little illumination within the halls of Christianity these days.