The 25th anniversary of the Lazar saga...

a reply to: Bybyots
Besides being your usual brilliant self, you are building a HECKUVA interesting timeline with elements of overlapping mythology noted.

You should publish that as it expands. Deserves its own thread. Bravo.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

To expand on my doubts, if there was a mind-control/hypnotic narrative being implanted in his memory, would they really be so extravagant and plot-driven? Would they 'program' someone with a narrative that's so full of holes and inviting of incredulity? Would it even be possible?

I was wondering more along the lines of Bob being a willing partner/stooge of sorts and maybe just had the story "enhanced" through hypnosis. Maybe like where he sort of believes it himself and can go there, but he also realizes it is all one mind-blowing mind-effing.

Then there's the ubiquitous John Lear and his intelligence contracting past(?) I'm of the notion that maybe his head has been screwed with along the way. I mean, heck, you've heard him.

Now, when did George Knapp meet John Lear, btw? When did Lear meet Lazar?

Only Bybyots hopefully forthcoming timeline, or your encyclopedic knowledge of ufology, can lead me through this, Kandinsky. Kantzveldt is schooling me, too! mirageman, dissecting like he do. Others. A lot of my favorite braniacs here.

Anyways, many excellent points to be found in your entire post (as always.)

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: zazzafrazz

Lazar's "MAJ Badge"




S4 allegedly is the location Bob worked at.

DS possibly "Disc Storage"

ETL Extra Terrestrial Laboratory

WX Work Transfer










Of course there is a problem in that a US Department of Naval intelligence is not known to exist whilst there is the ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence).

Also the badge is supposedly a fake

But I think bybots made his point well about ufologists filling in the blanks

As far as Im aware Bob made that badge from memory to show everyone what it looked like. In regards to DNI (Department Of Naval Intelligence) Bob provided his W2 payslip at court when he was charged with pandering, which people also claim is fake. The judge accepted he worked for the DNI after it was investigated by Detective Bill Young. The judge also states that it is enormously difficult to get any information from government sources on Bob. Ive transcripted the best I can what the judge said during the hearing.

Transcript:

Seems to me that Mr. Lazars problem is of an emotional disturbance nature really much more than a criminal nature. I’ve been reading everything here and I agree with, in spite of what you say Mr. Lukens, I think that it is a substantial penalty that he has in fact been convicted of a felony. I have letters from Dan Stegman who is surveillance manager at the Sahara and Hacienda Resorts. I have statements from George Knapp. I have reviewed the material from Mark Viero. From Mr. (unintelligible- Bill Berries?0.52) office. I’m impressed with all of that. I note that although it doesn’t show a lot of (unintelligible-in time?0.58) we do have a W-2 form of record that shows that he worked for the United States Department of Naval Intelligence. Evidently based on what you say that confirms that detective Bill Young who investigated this does not have any objection to probation. I was impressed with the letter from the defendant in which he acknowledges that “his actions were irresponsible, they caused great embarrassment and pain to me and my loved ones.” I think that all of that is appropriate to put on the record. I have a letter from Don Williams, a friend of his who is a businessman in our community. I was impressed with the fact that no police investigation was involved in this case I guess, until he confessed on television. And I also note that he is in fact listed in the Los Alamos National Laboratory Telephone Directory. Its obvious it’s very difficult to get information on Mr. Lazar from government sources. Enormously difficult. With all of that in mind it seems to me here what’s appropriate under the circumstances. In addition to the twenty dollars administrative assessment this court does now sentence you Robert Lazar to confinement to Nevada Department of Prisons for a period of three years and I will suspend that sentence and place you on an indeterminate period of probation not to exceed three years subject to the following terms and conditions. Number one. I think you can do some useful community service and I will forward it that you do 150 hours of community service during the period of probation. Number two. That you have no contact with prostitutes or brothels, be that they be legal or illegal during the term of probation. Number three. I’m going to award it that you have psychotherapy once a week by a qualified psychiatrist, psychologist or American Family Counselor for a period of one year and there after if the professional does not feel you are ready to be released.
And it is my understanding you are willing to give up your passport. It seems to me that’s probably appropriate. Should you have a business need to travel, I would imagine that could be worked out with your probation officer. That will be the sentence.

Here's the video of the hearing.

a reply to: uforn

As far as Im aware Bob made that badge from memory to show everyone what it looked like. In regards to DNI (Department Of Naval Intelligence) Bob provided his W2 payslip at court when he was charged with pandering, which people also claim is fake. The judge accepted he worked for the DNI after it was investigated by Detective Bill Young. The judge also states that it is enormously difficult to get any information from government sources on Bob.

Yes, although I haven't tracked down the source of it there are claims Bob made a 'mock up' of his "MAJ Badge" to illustrate how it looked because the original badge had to remain on the base at all time. So describing it as a 'fake' as I did is probably an inaccurate description.


The payslip has been around on the web for a long time.



For those, like me, who haven't paid attention to this story for a long, long time, there is a whole host of information on Lazar at : Stealthskater.com

originally posted by: Bybyots
Cheese and rice,

I'm really tripping out on something right now. It took Stephen Spielberg 4 years to finally have Close Encounters of the Third Kind made in 1977.

Then only 1 year later, Stanton Friedman interviews Jesse Marcel in 1978.

What's trippin' me out is: where the hell did Close Encounters come from? With its little big-headed aliens, and gangly pale also-big-headed aliens? I just somehow can't get over the fact that CEotTK has no Roswell in it whatsoever.

see here a day of movie release interview with S.S. that brings in the advisor and where he got the ET stuff .
www.rogerebert.com...

I believe Lazar worked at S4 and saw the disks. George Knapp is creditable and I'm with him on this.

I've been following this whole story since the start. My theory is that I think Lazar did lie about certain aspects of his education in the beginning and on resumes/applications. If he came out after saying he lied about that then nobody, not even Knapp, would of ever believed him or gave him a chance to talk. I think Lazar attended some classes at the colleges he said for a short time but he never graduated or was there long. That's why he did have some former students recognize him and confirm to Knapp their story. It also explains some of Stanton arguments. And it's not impossible that the government destroyed his records after he came out too but I think unlikely.

I worked at that same time in the aerospace industry in top secret locations. Contract and temp companies never checked anything and the company that they sent you to didn't either. But if you actually got hired, the HR office had a huge sign that read - "We check all degrees". Lazar was contracted from an outside company to work at Los Alamos so it's feasible he just lied to get a job (lots of people did this in the late 80's and were allowed to work on Top Secret projects, I know).

Other than the dubious college stuff then there really isn't anything else you can say. I love Stanton Friedman, but it seems to me he is just trying to find that one case that he can debunk to make himself look creditable. I sincerely think he is wrong on this one case.

a reply to: The GUT

...What I'm pondering is, "Look! Lookie here at our top secret flight platform mega-operation! Here! UFOs and everything. Bring your camcorders!"...meanwhile back at the new base of black ops wet dreams...

I was waiting to see if and when anyone else would toss this hat into the ring. My bet was on Springer or George Knapp himself, but The GUT wins the prize. I'm actually surprised more of the keener ATS observers haven't chimed in - 9 days in.

Prof. GUT, if you'll permit me: Lazar is not a disinfo campaign, but rather a redirect one. The script has been perfect, or nearly so, with Knapp and Lear, et al living and working in the SinCity/SilverState environs, cruising up and down 375, watching all those booked-up Janet departures, all the while leading eager flocks of minions-by-the-millions to peer over crags and canyons in the fruitless desire to catch a glimpse of one of "them".

Bravo and Encore, my friends. Let the fantasy perpetuate ad nauseam. Bobby's doing a wonderful job. The perfect diversion. Keep the attention on Groom and Papoose and look for tiny imperfections on the igneous slopes through the ubiquitous Google Earth (hint: NASA's own World Wind has better stuff).

Meanwhile, Dugway/MAAF or Reston or some other Area 52, 53, or #x ... quietly hums along, on track, on mission, a bit less distracted... KLAS-TV did a nice piece on the Nevada site going through "Top Secret Construction" a few years back. Not a big expenditure, really, in the scheme of things. And let's face it - it pays to have a few things buzzing around the "old Area 51" site (besides rumors, that is).

Speculation? Of course, admittedly so. We certainly don't have the resources and connections Mr. Knapp has so diligently and expertly networked together over lo these many years. Kudos to him, certainly - I love his work and wish others investigated such things with equal vigor, integrity, and sense-of-purpose.

Just saying: maybe we should take a closer look at places other than Bobby's sandbox. As in another backyard all together.

I met John Lear a few years back at a conference. Someone in our group asked him about this specifically. He said nothing, but the look on his face was priceless. That's not investigative reporting, I know. But is sure hit me in the gut just the same...

a reply to: bimyou

Lazar was contracted from an outside company to work at Los Alamos so it's feasible he just lied to get a job (lots of people did this in the late 80's and were allowed to work on Top Secret projects, I know).

Other than the dubious college stuff then there really isn't anything else you can say.

Nail ... on ... the ... head!!

I could add that a LOT of 'those types' turned out to be pathological liars. Very like the kinds of wannabes ATS calls out with varying frequency.

One must understand the contractor's needs to fill a personnel requirement which results in 'billable hours' to US taxpayers.

That's all Bob Lazar ever was.

He got caught pretending on the job by his co-workers. His boss cut him loose. His ego couldn't stand it. He made up a cover story. His story was picked up and popularized by alternative media. People have been buying-in to popularized lies ever since.

Time to stop the charade and deny the ignorance ... maybe?

a reply to: Outrageo

A redirection yes, here's some visual imagery for you, take the Reticulum chamber of one sheep and transform it into the wailing pipes, let the Piper start his lament and the rest of the band take it's cue from him, bring in the big bass drum and let the march commence, and all the good people can follow on along to disappear forever into an underground bunker set into the hills of Nevada...

A comparison that amuses me, but the reticulum as a secondary processing chamber does seem to have been the reason it was selected in terms of Zeta Reticula symbolism to create a paradigm through which the modern UFO phenomena would be processed and redirected toward oblivion by those whose interests would be threatened by any honest appraisal.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Damn.

Did you just call Lazar some sort of space-Haggis?



Let the record reflect that Scotland has spoken on the matter of Bob Lazar. So mote it be.

a reply to: Bybyots

I guess he has shown much sheep's pluck, but i was more thinking of it's usage as a windbag.

The bag, from which the instrument derives it's name, was originally made from a sheep's stomach. Modern players use leather hide bags or bags from man-made materials. Hide bags must treated to keep them air tight. The piper blows air into the bag and then squeezes the bag to make air come out through a chanter and three drones (described below).

Bagpipes

Curious how it all turned out to be drones...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Curious how it all turned out to be drones...

Literally and figuratively speaking, right? I know: bring on the pretty plasma-blimps.



Oops, just realized I better keep it on topic so...

You know I have been trying to to catch lazar with his hands in the MJ-12 cookie-jar. It's not hard to realize that he and his handlers have been sneaking in to the cookie jar because there are all these crumbs on his guilty lips and falling out of his pockets, but I wanted to catch the hand in the jar.

Here it is...



It starts at 32:30. Zeta Reticuli, the genetic manipulation of mankind by "The Greys", it's all in there, and as it turns out Lazar is also the originator of the meme concerning these made-up aliens referring to mankind as "containers".

Lazar's story can't survive in this post-2012 environment.

Here look, everybody, it kind of goes like this: Origen back in like 218, was a rock star of early Christian theology. He totally scalped Plato and the Stoics in order to spice up Christian theology. Thing is that in order for scholars to understand that he did so required hundreds of years of history to pass, the texts weren't even available to western scholars for some 800 years or so even if they had wanted to make that distinction. But, once the "west" acheived some sort of homeostatsis, scholars were able to study Origen and declare him a neo-Platonist. I guess "borrowing" ideas that are 6-700 years old is not considered plagiarism.

My point is 2 things: time, and critical literary analysis. No story survives those twin-terrors of deconstruction.

All that is required to debunk hoaxes made of text and media is the critical analysis of that text and media. That's the only science required to bring Lazar's stupid story to its knees; not physics or time-cards or MAJ-badges or any of that. Who gives a # what contractor Lazar worked for. In fact all of Lazar's subterfuge concerning Los Alamos and the Navy is rendered moot by the simple fact that he was either made a piece of a larger lie-machine or chose poorly when he decided to align his lies with known larger lies such as MJ-12.

a reply to: Bybyots

Absolutely literally and figuratively, there has been a veritable Piper band taking up the haunting refrain and providing much droning, not that i don't appreciate the pipes, just that they're playing the wrong tune and marching in the wrong direction, i prefer the one to charm the Faeries or pretty plasma blimps as the case might be.



Moral of the story, the Faeries appreciate more a tune they can dance too.

a reply to: The GUT

If you look at the first story we aired in which Lazar's identity is revealed, there are shots from inside Los alamos. One of the pieces of video shows the interior of the large particle accelerator inside the Meson facility at Los alamos. That was the last stop on the tour we took. The tour is not a new revelation. I've mentioned it in nearly every public presentation I have ever made about Lazar. Plus, we have used video snippets from that tour in many of the stories we've put together for KLAS TV. The lab sure as hell didn't let me in on its own. I was not one of their favorite people.

a reply to: Kandinsky

If you go back to the beginning of the story, you will see why Ed Teller pops up in it. In the very same issue of the Los Alamos Monitor newspaper in which the front page story showed Bob Lazar, described as a physicist at Los alamos National Lab, standing beside a Honda that he had equipped with a jet engine. Elsewhere in the same issue is a story about Edward Teller visiting the lab. The first time I interviewed Bob, he told me he met Teller--almost as an accident, on the day that newspaper came out. He walked by and saw Teller reading the article with his picture and introduced himself. That chance meeting with Teller led to Lazar later contacting him to ask about a job, which he says led to S-4. That was always his story to me since Day One. So when I found the newspaper and it had the article about Bob, I also looked for the piece about Teller and sure enough, there it was. If you find it to be not very credible that teller would be on the campus of LANL, I don't know what to tell you, except Bob did not inject a famous person into the story. The famous person was ALWAYs a key part of the story.

a reply to: Bybyots

I don't even know how to respond. How green was my horn? What the hell does that mean? My career path is pretty well documented. I started at KLAS in 1981. As the article at the beginning of this discussion makes clear, my bosses already had an interest in Area 51 and shared it with me. I did not write any stories about the base until late 80's, though our station covered the stories about the land grab in the mid 80's. I was present at the MUFON symposium in LV when all the Bill Moore stuff hit the fan, but it was way over my head since that was my very first UFO gathering. I did interview Moore a few years later. He was very hostile to the Lazar story. No question, he really helped to do a number on Bennewitz. There was a lot of disinfo games being played back then, which I fully reported in the followup series to our original multi-part series. Trying to figure out where you are going with this. If you are saying there was a lot of skullduggery in Ufology back then, you are right. And it is still true. I can only speak about the stories that I work on myself and don't want to be put in the impossible position of defending all of Ufology, past or present.

a reply to: bimyou

Thank you. This is the same general spot where I landed after all these years. I think Bob is telling the truth as he knows it. I know for a fact that a whole string of really weird..and ominous ...things happened to him and to the rest of us who were involved back then, and if you weren't there, I simply am not going to be able to convince you it was real, nor would I try. It is very possible that Bob was used for some purpose, but I am convinced that he is not part of a disinfo ploy..not a willing participant anyway..and that the story he has told is true as far as he knows it, though whether it is objectively true is another matter. The people who pull the strings on these things are pretty good at what they do, though I think they screwed up this time, not realizing just how big the story would get, and how long the interest would continue.

a reply to: Snarl
Well, you'd have to ignore a heck of a lot of other stuff for that version to be true....things that he knew that were verified. But I am not going to go into the whole list all over again. people can believe whatever they want.

originally posted by: GeorgeKnapp
a reply to: Bybyots

I don't even know how to respond. How green was my horn? What the hell does that mean? My career path is pretty well documented.

Sorry, that was my point. I was trying to point out that you were an established journalist at the time you did the Lazar piece. To that point I really doubt that either you or your station would have "just aired the story", but would have dug into it before wasting resources on a hoax story. To me at least, the fact that KLAS and yourself green lighted the story means that there is enough facts in the story that it should be taken seriously.

a reply to: duaneology

Man, that stuff about international fame is a gut buster. You can't possibly know how ridiculous that is since you don't know me, but fame is not something that has ever been a goal. I am a very private person who happens to have a very public job. The fame is the least favorite part of my job. I don't want fame, don't want; to be recognized in public and am the only person working in television news who really would prefer it if I could do the job without showing my face. (That gets truer and truer the older I get and the worse I look.) I can only imagine what it must be like for the people who are actually famous. But if you think this has been a boon to my career or something that others should aspire to, you are crazy.

I have been able to keep my job because I work at a great station where they trust me, but I could never go somewhere else. The UFO stuff has pretty much put a cap on my career, a ceiling. And every day, no matter what story i work on, when someone wants to take a shot at me for something I have written, the UFO thing is the first comment out of their mouths. That's their ultimate answer to any hard hitting piece I might report, no matter what the subject or how legitimate the story might be. So you can have the fame. Welcome to it. Ditto for lazar. He is a most reluctant UFO messiah. On the day we made his name public, I had to wrestle the video tape out of his hands so I could deliver it to the control room. He hates this stuff. Always has.

It is true that when the story first broke, some movie people came to me and told us to get an agent and make a deal. We were excited about it, having never done anything like it before. Since then, there has been a long list of movie types who have wanted to make the Lazar story. Bob has always parted ways with them when they wrote a script that was different from what really happened. If he had wanted to cash in on this, it would have been pretty easy. I get interview requests for him every single week---even 25 years later. He could live on this UFO stuff by itself, no problem. That is not the path he chose. So again, believe what you want but the facts tell a much different picture, both for him and for me.