BBC Says Russia has invaded the Ukraine (10th time)

a reply to: VirusGuard

After the people of the Crimea voted to stay with Russia then Russia had every right to remove internal threats to the Crimea and troops in the area where asked to join the new army to protect the Crimea or get the hell out of here.

Except you forget one thing...they had to have control before they could have the referendum.

All the videos were from before they had the referendum, but feel free to show how they had a referendum before they had total control of Crimea?

"annex" well that's a nice word but what do you call it when squadrons of B52 bombers liberate Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan and then tries to install a puppet government who the people rise up against and overthrow ?

Yes the same word Hitler and Putin used when taking over a sovereign countries territory. Now if this were a thread about the ME I would engage in discussing them, but it isn't so I won't.

Good try though.

You seem to forget that Russia owned the Ukraine at one stage and gave it away without a fight which is not something the USA can say in the territory it has tried to occupied in the middle east.

What exactly is it with you and a few others that seem to think the ME has to be injected into every thread about Ukraine?

And you do understand that if it wasn't for Ukraine the Russian federation would have never been started, and the fact that Russia has no ownership over a sovereign country even if they were part of the federation at one time does not give Putin the right to annex any part of that country. How hard is that to understand.

In fact here is a bit of a question for you...

Now you sell someone a car and after 15 years you decide you want that car back, do you think you have the right to just go and take it back?

Or better yet you give something to your neighbor that you once owned, does that give you the right to take it back because it used to be yours before it was his?

Of course you don't have the right and neither does Putin.

Are you saying that the USA has not dropped bombs in at least ten countries in the past ten years ?

So when did this become about the US and what they do...just can't keep it on topic can we?

a reply to: VirusGuard

I seem to remember the wall coming down 25 years ago and Russia not having a pot to piss in but since then it has once again become rich with the cost of an hotel in st Petersburg being higher than new York.

Russia is not rich, it has finally reached the level of development it should have obtained fifty years ago; parity with Germany. Speaking of over-inflated real estate in 'Pete, do you know where Putin got his start in politics, and why it was initially marred with scandal?

Correct me if I am wrong but did Russia not just sign two gas deal with China that total something like $800bn and is it not China that the USA owes a lot of money too.

Yes, China gouged Russia because of its desperate situation, and the fact that China holds so much US debt is a strong reason for it not to damage America's economy. Conquest by financial red tape.

Did I not hear of a shut down in the USA about a year ago because they ran out of money.

Do you have no access to Western news sources at all? Congress shut down the United States government by refusing to pass an appropriations bill in order to score a political point against the President. It had nothing to do with "running out of money.

This last grasp of power you talk about, if it is about Putin has an 80% approval rate from the Russian public which Obama can only dream about so given that the USA has been over taken by China and that China is friends with Russia then would it be unfair to suggest that what you say does not seem to have any legs to walk on.

Popularity means nothing. Truman was never popular, but he decisively ended the Second World War and evaded started a Third with the Soviet Union. He is now considered one of America's best Presidents. Even China's official economic reporting indicates that its economy is slowing down. They have entire empty cities that were built during the housing boom,and have been demolishing factories rather than modernizing them.

ETA: Nations do not have "friends;" they have allies and trading partners. China is happy to buy cheap gas from Russia, and willing to sell as much Chinese consumer goods as Russia wants. Note that they still have a militarized border.

a reply to: VirusGuard

I seem to remember the wall coming down 25 years ago and Russia not having a pot to piss in but since then it has once again become rich with the cost of an hotel in st Petersburg being higher than new York.

And that is the problem of the US how?

Correct me if I am wrong but did Russia not just sign two gas deal with China that total something like $800bn and is it not China that the USA owes a lot of money too.

And this is relevant to this thread how...Amazing derailing your own thread.

Did I not hear of a shut down in the USA about a year ago because they ran out of money.

Again relevance to this thread is how again? You just don't want to keep it on topic...brilliant and in your own thread again what is this two posts that aren't even close to being on topic, way to go.

This last grasp of power you talk about, if it is about Putin has an 80% approval rate from the Russian public

When you control what they see as news and that news does nothing but praise him what do you expect? And that is the reason Obama is different, our news doesn't bow down to him with the fear of imprisonment or death if you talk bad about Putin...why does that sound familiar, more like a little Hitleresque.

that the USA has been over taken by China and that China is friends with Russia then would it be unfair to suggest that what you say does not seem to have any legs to walk on.

And can you show any proof of what I said has no legs to walk on or is that just your opinion?

And I want to add a little something to this...

Did I not hear of a shut down in the USA about a year ago because they ran out of money.

And was it not the US who got the money approved that bailed Russia out when their economy tanked...I think it was, in fact it was Bill Clinton that did so, now without the help of the big bad boogey USA Russia wouldn't be around today as they are.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Except you forget one thing...they had to have control before they could have the referendum.

It is easy to take control if 90% plus of the people are with you and you don't need tanks or guns and just need a pen like happened in the Crimea but it's not so easy in the east of the Ukraine with Kiev sending tanks to bomb the city's

What exactly is it with you and a few others that seem to think the ME has to be injected into every thread about Ukraine?

Because it blows to bits the theory that the USA is somehow a peace keeper in the Ukraine when it's hands are full of blood and tong if full of lies.

Now you sell someone a car and after 15 years you decide you want that car back, do you think you have the right to just go and take it back?

Russia did not sell it for one thing and they took it back at the invitation of the people in the Crimea and reluctantly will take the east back since they are friends and Kiev was bombing the crap out the place.

So when did this become about the US and what they do...just can't keep it on topic can we?

But booming and fighting is about all the USA ever does when we look at our TV's and it's just what they are threating to do in the Ukraine so how can you say it's not on topic.

Maybe that's where I am going wrong and need to forget the current wars the USA is fighting and many past conquests and then I would be on your side if it was out of character for the USA to start these wars or fund terrorists groups but its not so I won't.

Hitler made a big mistake building all them motorways all over the place because when it come to invading Germany the forces were able to cross Germany in record time and I would like to thank the USA for building all them runways in some of the 400 military bases it has spread across the globe to defend itself like on the other side of the world because when the USA is kicked out we can still make good use of these runways.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A BIG TAHNKYOU TO THE TAX PAYING AMERICAN PUBLIC IS IN ORDER

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

When you control what they see as news and that news does nothing but praise him what do you expect?

No mate, sorry but I cannot answer that question because it would be off topic by your rules just like the previous history of the USA and it's wars of aggression was plus you said that the economy behind any war is also off topic.

Pointing out that Russian people are more free to view the internet and decide if they like Putin or not than people are in the USA who has the NSA watching their every move would only get me a warning from the new mod [YOU] and I would not want that would I now.

a reply to: DJW001
Putin was KGB, no secret about that

No one can keep up with Germany but Russia for the past 25 year has been on the up and that's not something you can say about the USA

Yes, China gouged Russia because of its desperate situation

No Russia has gas to sell and China needs energy plus they are both members of the BRICKS and hence a gas deal that was in the pipeline long before the Ukraine blew up.

China holds so much US debt is a strong reason for it not to damage America's economy. Conquest by financial red tape.

So goes the old saying that if I owe the banks $100k then I am in trouble but if I owe the banks $1m then the bank is in trouble but that's only half the story.

The USA keeps printing more and more money whilst keeping the base rate of interest low so China is left with rotten stock that pays little interest and was trouble to break out then I am sure all them bonds will become worthless but here the USA has made a big mistake because American corporations have exported all you jobs and built its manufacturing plants in China so China get left holding physical assets and the BoA gets to hold worthless bits of paper.

Japan is all the down payment that China needs and I would like to see the USA try to get it back.

North Korea is worthless just now, no room for people to live because its covered in Guns pointing towards the south. Bomb it all you like and the bombs will cost you more money than the damage they do but when these guns open up on the south then shares in Hyundai won't be worth much.

India will be begging the USA to seize its paper assets so it can take the hard assets too.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush when it comes to counterfeit notes, CDS that are going to go bang anyway so I am note sure that the USA being in so much debt is going to help them win this one and China also knows that it's neck will be on the block if Russia goes down.

a reply to: VirusGuard

It is easy to take control if 90% plus of the people are with you and you don't need tanks or guns and just need a pen like happened in the Crimea but it's not so easy in the east of the Ukraine with Kiev sending tanks to bomb the city's

And yet they weren't which is why they used force to get control of Crimea. You do understand that there are videos some which I posted clearly shows them using force to gain control of Crimea, so it becomes hard to deny it happened.

Well that is usually what happens when separatists take up arms against the government, and are backed by a foreign nation such as Russia.

Because it blows to bits the theory that the USA is somehow a peace keeper in the Ukraine when it's hands are full of blood and tong if full of lies.

And Russia's isn't...Ask their neighbors.

Also ask the victims of the apartment buildings that Russia blew up as a way to blame Chechnya and begin a new fight against them.

In fact if you could ask the dead in Chechnya I am willing to bet they say Russia has just as much if not more on their hands.

Russia did not sell it for one thing and they took it back at the invitation of the people in the Crimea and reluctantly will take the east back since they are friends and Kiev was bombing the crap out the place.

Russia didn't sell what?

Crimea was part of and is still part of Ukraine, and Crimea didn't ask them for help...Russia sent troops there to so called protect Russian speaking people, yet they weren't in any kind of danger so he took it for the base it had nothing to do with the Crimean people.

You do understand that the bombing didn't happen until the separatists took up arms and started fighting against the government.

But booming and fighting is about all the USA ever does when we look at our TV's and it's just what they are threating to do in the Ukraine so how can you say it's not on topic.

You need to quit watching movies as they seem to be hurting your views about the real world. And when have they said they threatened to do anything in Ukraine, because this seems to be what they really say...

Officials in the Obama administration had said Washington believed Ukraine had enough lethal aid and the types of weaponry requested for Ukraine would be of only marginal value. They had also emphasized the need for a diplomatic outcome.

www.reuters.com...

Now the fact that this thread (your thread) is about BBC and Russia invading...SO how does what America does relate to the topic of this thread...again your thread?

a reply to: VirusGuard

No mate, sorry but I cannot answer that question because it would be off topic

Not my rules, and that hasn't stopped you before why worry about it now?

Pointing out that Russian people are more free to view the internet and decide if they like Putin or not than people are in the USA who has the NSA watching their every move would only get me a warning from the new mod [YOU] and I would not want that would I now.

Are being serious about them having more freedom on the internet than those in the US, because now I know you are just making it up as you go along...

www.ibtimes.com...

www.reuters.com...

Now shall we try that again?

Also I am just trying to keep thread relevant and keep out the warnings for off topic posts, but hey do as you please.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h
I must admit I didn't watch any of the embed links because I got tired of watching stuff that show a tank or a vehicle that could had been taken anywhere and at anytime out in the middle of a field where someone just wanted to say its a Russian invasion but I will go back and look again.

Crimea was part of and is still part of Ukraine, and Crimea didn't ask them for help...Russia sent troops there to so called protect Russian speaking people, yet they weren't in any kind of danger so he took it for the base it had nothing to do with the Crimean people.

Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine no more than Yugoslavia is still part of the worlds map, gone and not coming back.

Crimea asked Russia for protection so they invited Russia in to backup their own road blocks on the border but I don't think much shooting went on at the borders and never moved past a few probes from Kiev. Brave Nazi's working along side the regular army like killing civilians and dare not face off against well defended road blocks.

"weren't in any kind of danger" well tell that to the people in the east of the Ukraine who got burnt alive by the Nazi's

Putin saved a lot of lives in the Crimea by staying in the background and giving rebel forces confidence much like the USA does with its puppet governments around the world but hey if you want to think that Russia now needs to put fences up to stop it's new friends from fleeing to the Ukraine then that's up to you.

You need to quit watching movies as they seem to be hurting your views about the real world. And when have they said they threatened to do anything in Ukraine, because this seems to be what they really say...

Give over because not only has the USA made threats towards Russia all over the media but even introduced sanctions and then spends time, money and effort to try to force everyone to enforce them but it's not working.

Movies I have watched in the past ten years are :

Gulf war I with Iraq

Gulf war II with Iraq

KickAss Afghanistan where we got our arse kicked (just like Russia) but did manage to up our opium productions

Unofficial with love as we use drones to kill people in Pakistan, Yemen and some other hell whole that I forgot it's name.

Operation at a distance where we give Israel billions each year to bomb Gaza and Palestine and pretend its not our fault.

Syria Fox where we give guns to terrorists that morph into the ISIS fighters

From USA with love where the USA spends $5bn on Nazi friends in the Ukraine to start trouble with Russia

No boots on the ground where we go back to Iraq with 1500 men the other weeks all wearing slippers

Been watching too many films have I because I want to watch the new release where Iran is just weeks from building a bomb that was due to come out ten years ago and is another one that the USA keep making threats towards.

OK off to view one of your embed video's

a reply to: tsurfer2000h
Yep OK watched video number two from Sky

So the army locked themselves inside a building with nothing more than "sticks and metal bars" to defend themselves with and the press was on hand to film the staged event because everyone knew the Russians were coming.

Few shoots fired in the air and the men inside and outside the building all surrender with their hands in their pockets to cheers from local residence.



Hell the only interrogation for these defeated hero's was from the sky news reporter.

No blood, not even a slap around face and you want me to think that this was anything other than a media stages event !

I won't even ask if this was after the Russians were invited in to protect the Crimea or the elections because it was such a none event and I would not know if the attacking (Well if you can call it that) were Russians or other loyal forces in the area who sided with the new Crimea government.

"A Ambulance moves forwards" say the news man and I say it left empty because the only action was a dog craping itself and heading for cover.

Got naf all on my list of movies to watch and I won't be buying it

OK I got bored and watched the last video in your list and at first our man from London working for sky talks about Crimea troops taking the airport but then says no one knows who they are and they, could be Russian for all we know well how does he know because they could be members of ISIS dressed up and was clearly speculating.

Russia builds some of the best helicopters in the world and the Ukraine has hundreds of the things with some being seized when Ukraine forces loyal to the Crimea took control of the area so showing a group of helicopters flying in the distance does not make them Russian and again this is speculation from our man in London pretending that anything military must be not only made in Russia (its all is that area) but knows who's doing the driving.

Please at least show me just one dead body to support this invasion to take back the Crimea that Russia apparently gave to the Ukraine in 1951 according to the report.

So far the DHS and the police on the streets of Furgeson look more intimidating than what I've seen here and I would show you some real action in the Ukraine from Youtube but it got banned in my other ATS thread so I would have to PM you the link

Merkel Is Toughening Up Against Putin — And That Could Be Huge

Angela Merkel is a disciplined and cautious public speaker. So when she makes statements that seem fired by passion and resolve, it is good to take note.

And if those statements prompt her foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, to urge a softer tone, something big probably happened.

That is what happened in Sydney, Australia, on November 17th, when Mrs Merkel talked at the Lowy Institute for International Policy. Her main subject was the aggression of Russia’s Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.

At the G20 summit, Mrs Merkel had just met Mr Putin for hours in what appears to have been another frustrating exchange. Mrs Merkel reiterated her assurances, mainly directed at the pacifists in her German home audience, that there can be no military solution to the conflict. (Germany’s allies in the Baltics and Poland are less sure about that.) But, she added, that does not mean that the West cannot respond resolutely in other ways, above all economically.

....

Mr Putin was a KGB agent in Dresden when the Berlin Wall fell, and speaks fluent German. He is well aware of the rift in German sympathies and philosophies. On November 16th, German public television aired an exclusive interview with him in which he mixed charm, half-truths and fabrication to try to seduce the German public. He has understood that Germany may be the key country in the Western alliances, both NATO and the European Union, and Mrs Merkel the key leader.

She, like Germany’s president, Joachim Gauck, is from what used to be East Germany. She speaks Russian and is said to know Mr Putin better than any other Western leader does. Until now, Mr Gauck, who has a largely ceremonial office, has been the one talking tough about Mr Putin.

If Mrs Merkel now adopts more of that tone, Mr Putin will find it harder to drive a wedge between Germany's aversion to conflict and its commitment to rules and norms. Even Germany's willingness to talk ultimately has its limits.

Click link for remainder of article


It seems Putin may have underestimated Merkel.

a reply to: VirusGuard

Gulf war I with Iraq

Gulf war II with Iraq

Please explain why it was okay for Saddam to send troops armed with Russian weapons in to Kuwait to seize oil wells but wrong for coalition forces to drive him back out. Then, given that, why was it wrong for the United States to send troops in to Iraq to seize oil wells twenty years later, and why it was okay for Russia not to form a coalition to drive the US back out. Then apply the same reasoning to the current situation in Ukraine, first assuming that the United States is responsible for the situation by covert means, then assuming that Russia is responsible by covert means. I'm sure we will all enjoy your performance.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

And yet they weren't which is why they used force to get control of Crimea. You do understand that there are videos some which I posted clearly shows them using force to gain control of Crimea, so it becomes hard to deny it happened.

Throughout the whole even just one man died in the Crimea because it was what the people of the region wanted but compare that to the east of the Ukraine where no one wants anything to do with Kiev and you would have to agree that we are not talking about the same thing.

The force you is talking about is an exaggeration to say the least and I did watch some of your link and gave you my comments about staged publicity events for the camera crews.

Driving a tank into a wall is nothing to the hundred's of shells that Kiev is pumping into city's in the east of Ukraine and as I keep telling you a few tanks does not mean they are controlled by Russia because large parts of the Crimea army joined the rebels and took the tanks with them.

You cannot make a cake without breaking an egg but you continue to ignore Kiev and the Nazi's and want to concentrate on one death and none events.

a reply to: VirusGuard

You cannot make a cake without breaking an egg but you continue to ignore Kiev and the Nazi's and want to concentrate on one death and none events.

You quote Lenin to justify seizing Crimea? Why have you not responded to my question about the differences between the two Gulf Wars and the situation in Ukraine? Is it because you know your answers would be inconsistent?

a reply to: DJW001

Please explain why it was okay for Saddam to send troops armed with Russian weapons in to Kuwait to seize oil wells but wrong for coalition forces to drive him back out.

Kuwait was side drilling oil from Iraq and saddam was given a green light to invade by the west but it was a trap and the media jumped on it with stories of babies that were being thrown out of incubators in Kuwait but we now know it was lies and much like the WMD lies that came later.

You don't spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined without having a use for it

The relationship between the USA and Iraq is not the same as Russia and the Ukraine because one joins another's border and one is starting wars on the other side of the world as if someone made the USA the worlds policeman.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Angela Merkel is a disciplined and cautious public speaker. So when she makes statements that seem fired by passion and resolve, it is good to take note.

I read it and if you take out the added speculation and concentrate on what she said then she said nothing new what so ever.

She always seem to have a smile on her face when she is around Putin and if you are seeking rhetoric then may I recommend that silly Abbot guy from Oz with is "Shirt front" comments because when it came to it he did naf all.

Sanctions in the main are all talk with little real impact and Iran has put up with them for ten years now and Cuba a lot longer so I would not rest my hopes on them and with Winter coming in Europe you might see gas pipes cut and then you will learn just what sanctions are all about.
France is not too happy about sanctions because a $1.4bn ship deal might cost them $3bn in damages and the USA won't pick up the bill, Farmers in Europe are none to happy with the USA acting as the worlds bullyboy so don't go thinking that the USA has got off scot free will you now because banning the GMO crap that comes from the USA will more than pay for the losses imposed on farmers in Europe by the USA

a reply to: VirusGuard

Kuwait was side drilling oil from Iraq and saddam was given a green light to invade by the west but it was a trap and the media jumped on it with stories of babies that were being thrown out of incubators in Kuwait but we now know it was lies and much like the WMD lies that came later.

Is Ukraine side drilling from Russia? Please provide some documentation for your claims that the West gave Saddam the green light and that the stories of Saddam's secret police, prisons and use of chemical weapons against Kurdish separatists were all lies. Speaking of separatists, why was it okay for Saddam to use deadly force against Kurdish separatists, including civilians, but it is not okay for Kyiv to use force against separatists?

You don't spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined without having a use for it

Perhaps it is used to defend the rest of the world from the second largest military: Russia's. And whereas the United States' forces are spread around the globe, Russia's are all directed at its neighbors, ready to attack, as they have in Ukraine. That is why they all want to join NATO

The relationship between the USA and Iraq is not the same as Russia and the Ukraine because one joins another's border and one is starting wars on the other side of the world as if someone made the USA the worlds policeman.

I see... it was okay for Iraq to invade Kuwait because they are neighbors, it is okay for Russia to invade Ukraine because they are neighbors, it was okay for Nazi Germany to invade Poland because they were neighbors.... Has it ever occurred to you that it is precisely this sort of neighborhood crime that has led the civilized world to ask America to be the world's policeman? That is what NATO and the other regional security agreements are, in effect. An assurance that the US will walk the beat and put an end to breaking and entering.

Just because Putin didn't break any windows doesn't mean he's not a thief.

a reply to: DJW001

You quote Lenin to justify seizing Crimea?

Don't care who I quote and would even quote GW-Bush who did 9-11 if it made a point and the Crimea was not seized like you imply, it was not rape, she consented and is having a wonderful time with Russia and won't be going back to her old boyfriend anytime soon.

The Crimea is over, it's finished and is yesterdays news but the east of the Ukraine is anything but over and if Kiev keeps attacking a region that has shown it wants to break away then know that Kiev itself is also on the table if Russia does ever invaded not that they really want Kiev because it is a economic basket case but they will take it if it continues to course trouble in the region.

Tell me why do you support the attempted genocide in the east of the Ukraine or are you saying that the people in the east are screaming for the liberators from Kiev to come and save them

a reply to: DJW001

Is Ukraine side drilling from Russia?

Don't know since you brought it up ! Are they

Please provide some documentation for your claims that the West gave Saddam the green light and that the stories of Saddam's secret police

Google is your friend.

Yes he did gas Kurds and today Turkey is using ISIS to kill them using made in US of A M-16's and where did saddam get the chemical agents for these weapons from ? Yes the good old USA.

Uncle sam was best friends with Saddam whilst he was helping to fight Iran so add that to you list of wars the USA has lost.

That is why they all want to join NATO

Since the wall came down NATO has been looking for a new role to fill and they are nothing more than an extension of the USA military, puppets and no one wants to pay for them and the rush is not to join NATO but to join the EU that has become a socialist basket case with only Germany and the UK holding the house of cards up.

Germany itself might be looking to exit and the people still wants its gold back from the USA so can you please sent it some of the Gold that was removed from the Ukraine for safe keeping please.

An assurance that the US will walk the beat and put an end to breaking and entering.

The USA would be the worlds expert when it comes to that or do you think people have the memory span of a golf fish ?

it is precisely this sort of neighborhood crime that has led the civilized world to ask America to be the world's policeman

What a load of BS ?

Half the people on the streets of Europe now want the yanks to go home after being invited over during WWII and the other half don't realize just how many military bases the USA has over here.

The USA is no policeman of the world and is more like your rabid dog that barking at anything that moves and is not painted in fiat $dollar green

a reply to: VirusGuard

Google is your friend.

Apparently it is not your friend or you would have used it to prove your point.

Yes he did gas Kurds

And you are okay with that? For the record, I am not okay with that, just as I am not okay with Turkey attacking the Kurds instead of IS.

Half the people on the streets of Europe now want the yanks to go home after being invited over during WWII and the other half don't realize just how many military bases the USA has over here.

Do you have some reliable statistics to back this claim up, or are you going to tell me to go google myself again?

The USA is no policeman of the world and is more like your rabid dog that barking at anything that moves and is not painted in fiat $dollar green

No, Vladimir Putin is the rabid dog that has been biting its neighbors. Time for that rabid dog to be put down before the infection spreads from Russia and Ukraine into Poland and Kazakhstan.