Der Speigel says Russia was not at fault for MH17

a reply to: HappyThoughts

Why can't it shoot the cannon at that height without stalling? What a load of BS right there.

The plane can't even fly that high so how is that BS?

Also here...

Cannons: impossible. The Su-25 was at minimum 10,000 feet below the 777. This means simply pointing the cannon at the 777 without stalling would have been a challenge. The ballistic trajectory of the cannon fire would have made this worse. The Gsh-30-2 cannon fires a round which travels at only 2800 feet per second, significantly lower than, say, the round fired by a 338 Lapua sniper rifle. Imagine trying to shoot down an airplane with a rifle, from 2-3 miles away using your eyeball, in a plane, at a ballistic angle. If the MH17 was somehow taken out by cannon fire, it will have obvious 30mm holes in the fuselage. None have been spotted so far.

scottlocklin.wordpress.com...

Feel free to refute anything posted, also how is that pick of the 30mm round hole you said you would provide?

Also feel free to tell the manufacturers that the engineers who built the SU25 that you know more than they do in fact here you can contact them here...

www.sukhoi.org...

And please let us know what they said when you tell them you know more than them about a plane they built.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Surfer maybe the rebels decided to shoot some of the wreckage with a 30 mm lol! thats the only way it would a got any 30 mm in it.

a reply to: yuppa

Surfer maybe the rebels decided to shoot some of the wreckage with a 30 mm lol! thats the only way it would a got any 30 mm in it.

Well that is a theory that has been bounced around...

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The plane can't even fly that high so how is that BS?

but you said this,

and it can't shoot it's cannon at that height without stalling if it even got to that altitude.

You said it can´t shoot its cannon while being at 10,000m without stalling. That is BS.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

Because if it reached that high, the recoil from the gun would cause it to stall, because the wings are barely producing lift as it is.

a reply to: Zaphod58

You are making stuff up.

Wow.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

The Service Ceiling of an unmodified Su-25 is 7,000 meters (roughly 23,000 feet), per Sukhoi. Service Ceiling is the maximum USABLE altitude, in a CLEAN configuration, that a positive rate of climb can be maintained at maximum thrust (generally 100 ft/min). At that altitude, anything over 1.5Gs will cause a stall, because the wings are producing so little lift.

Add in the fact that the pilot would have to be so nose high that he'd be pushing a stall just to get the gun on target, when he fired the gun, the recoil forces, which for any 30mm are impressive, are going to push back on the plane, and cause a stall.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Add in the fact that the pilot would have to be so nose high that he'd be pushing a stall just to get the gun on target, when he fired the gun, the recoil forces, which for any 30mm are impressive, are going to push back on the plane, and cause a stall.

Wouldn't the SU25 need some type of pressurization flying that high?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

The pilot would be on oxygen, gloved up, etc. They don't generally go anywhere near it though after testing, as there wouldn't really be a need to, since the Su-25 doesn't deploy long distances, like the A-10 or other ground attack aircraft.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

You are making stuff up.

I see you haven't been here long enough to know that the member your replying to is in a very elite class of members here when it comes to military aircraft and their capabilities.

If you really think he is just making it up research what he posts and then you will see if he is making it up.

So now are you able to refute anything he posted?

a reply to: Zaphod58

Add in the fact that the pilot would have to be so nose high that he'd be pushing a stall just to get the gun on target, when he fired the gun, the recoil forces, which for any 30mm are impressive, are going to push back on the plane, and cause a stall.

But he was talking about the plane not being able to fire its cannon at 10,000m altitude and thus horizontally, which is BS like I pointed out.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The pilot would be on oxygen, gloved up, etc. They don't generally go anywhere near it though after testing, as there wouldn't really be a need to, since the Su-25 doesn't deploy long distances, like the A-10 or other ground attack aircraft.

That's what I thought, but now do they have any kind of radar they can use to track the airliner at 33000 ft?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I see you haven't been here long enough to know that the member your replying to is in a very elite class of members here when it comes to military aircraft and their capabilities.

And yet in my eyes he is absolutely nobody. No offense.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

But it's not, because it would be close to its Absolute Ceiling, if it could get that high. At that altitude it would have to be at maximum power just to hold altitude, and any disruption, such as firing its gun could cause a stall. It would be staying airborne almost entirely by speed from the engine thrust, and firing the gun would slow it down, which means that the wings would no longer be creating as much lift as they were, which means it could no longer hold altitude, which means a stall.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Most of them don't. There was a modification that would add radar in a pod underneath it, and some were eventually modified to carry a basic radar, but I'm not sure if the Ukrainian aircraft got the radar modification. Being ground attack aircraft they don't need an air to air radar.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

Which makes no difference at all to the rules of aerodynamics.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But it's not, because it would be close to its Absolute Ceiling, if it could get that high. At that altitude it would have to be at maximum power just to hold altitude, and any disruption, such as firing its gun could cause a stall.

Sure, Zaphod whatever you say. A two second burst of the cannon will make it fall out of the sky. Hey I know, I bet the weight loss from the spent rounds will compensate for the 2sec "kickback", just to add some more drivel.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

At Absolute Ceiling, just about anything will make it stall. A 30mm canon has a huge recoil. Obviously you've never seen the A-10 firing a 2 second burst, and how much it slows it down. At low altitude, where it's designed to operate, it's not a problem, because there's plenty of lift generated. At 10,000 feet over its Service Ceiling, it's a totally different thing. At that point, you're barely flying, and ANY disruption of lift will cause a stall. A 2 second burst on a gun that slows you down as much as a 30mm does is definitely a disruption of lift.

Notice I said STALL, not "fall out of the sky" like you said. At that height a stall would be easy to recover from, once they dropped a couple thousand feet. Stall doesn't mean "fall out of the sky" it simply means the wings are no longer generating lift, which at Absolute Ceiling, after firing the gun, they wouldn't be anymore.

But please, other than spouting off sarcastic remarks, and putting words in my mouth, prove me wrong.

a reply to: HappyThoughts

But he was talking about the plane firing its cannon at 10,000m altitude and thus horizontally, which is BS like I pointed out.

And yet it can't get that high, and it definitely wouldn't be able to shoot cannons horizontally at the plane.

Here is what happens when a plane that has a ceiling lower than that jet was flying and not built to fly that high...

Stalls can be caused by real-life flying situations. If the engines quit or a sudden gust of wind hits, the airplane's forward speed decreases. The airflow over the wing decreases and the amount of lift drops

virtualskies.arc.nasa.gov...

So now the SU25 was built to fly with a ceiling of 23000 ft, and the jet was at 33000 ft, the SU 25 would have more than likely stalled well before it got to 33000 ft.

Now can you show me where an SU25 has the capabilities to fly 33000 ft and stay horizontal while firing it's cannons?

a reply to: Zaphod58

Why don't you show us your math, you are the elite class expert!