To the ufo "true believers": Why is your bar set so low?

originally posted by: Bandersn4tch
The real question here is, why are you setting the bar so high for ufo nuts. :^)

and why is the bar set so low for belief in a god with no evidence, and a person is (perfectly sane), as opposed to the bar set so high for thousands of encounters and sightings over decades both by military and civilians, and those people are (tin-foil-hat loonies)?

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: Bandersn4tch
The real question here is, why are you setting the bar so high for ufo nuts. :^)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..not ambiguous evidence.

and yet, belief in a god, that demands forced human obedience, (the mildest being ostracization, the cruelest death), has no evidence....

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: Bandersn4tch
The real question here is, why are you setting the bar so high for ufo nuts. :^)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..not ambiguous evidence.

and yet, belief in a god, that demands forced human obedience, (the mildest being ostracization, the cruelest death), has no evidence....

This is why many people call the blind belief in aliens and UFO's the new 'religion'. The two groups of people basically have the same personality type.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: Bandersn4tch
The real question here is, why are you setting the bar so high for ufo nuts. :^)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..not ambiguous evidence.

and yet, belief in a god, that demands forced human obedience, (the mildest being ostracization, the cruelest death), has no evidence....

What point are you trying to make? That UFOlogy is a religion? That religion is bad?

I thought the subject of the thread was the standards of evidence applied to UFOlogy by those inclined to believe unconventional claims over conventional explanations, however unsupported the former or reasonable the latter may be.

a reply to: jimmyx

Except I don't believe in a God first of all, I like how you just automatically assumed that.
Second of all, if you read my other posts you would know that I do in fact believe there's a kernel of truth in these reports. Try again.

OP is correct in saying though that the more fundamentalist ufologists will take any kind of blurry, explainable evidence without a critical eye and preach it like gospel.

Sort of in a similar fashion of what you did with my post and assumed you already knew what I believed. ; )

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: PhoenixOD

originally posted by: Bandersn4tch
The real question here is, why are you setting the bar so high for ufo nuts. :^)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..not ambiguous evidence.

and yet, belief in a god, that demands forced human obedience, (the mildest being ostracization, the cruelest death), has no evidence....

You should probably reread what I actually said. If someone posted a video on youtube claiming to depict God I'd be just as skeptical.

On page 2 I clearly stated that I don't have a problem with a belief in aliens. I myself believe there is probably life elsewhere in the cosmos. What I am criticizing is people who let their beliefs cloud their judgement when it comes to things like pictures and videos that supposedly depict fantastic things like "UFO's". Rather than try to figure out what the unidentified object might be, or find a logical explanation for it, they jump to the conclusion it's aliens, without hesitation.

THAT is what I am discussing. Not the belief in extraterrestrial life itself.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Hiya. I think there's a destructuring element that can kick in after someone's had a ghost, NDE or UFO experience. You're minding your own business and life is exactly what it's meant to be when some weird ingredient is suddenly thrust into your life.

Afterwards, the boundaries people had become a little more blurred. For example, 'when we die, it's over.' For the person who has an experience of 'ghosts' in their home, they have to reconsider whether death really is the end. From that point, they have to consider *why* a ghost might remain on Earth and *why* it does what it does. The same with seeing a UFO, we all *know* they don't exist as more than hoaxes and misperceptions. But after someone sees a UFO, they have to reappraise their previous beliefs and can't avoid speculating.

The destructuring is in the way rigid beliefs, and understandings of how the world works, become slightly more flexible. For some people they lose too much and become overly credulous. It's like 'I saw a UFO so every video I watch might be one too.' Likewise some people go from having a 'ghost' experience to believing the entire world is populated by spirit entities.

I think a lot of members who have a very low bar are a mixture of those mentioned above and the rest have a low level of education. I know several members who, for years, have demonstrated no critical thinking at all. Or rather, they only use it to defend absurd videos or ridiculous stories of aliens. There's a massive, profound mistake in expecting life to exist in the wider universe and then extrapolating that it *must* be visiting Earth. Yet how many times a week does someone stand by it?

To qualify these opinions, I've had a UFO sighting and also 'ghost' experiences. This means there's a level of personal destructuring of beliefs, but it also means it's possible to be skeptical of all the BS out there too. On a positive, I've been on ATS long enough to have seen some credulous folk grow and develop into very rational thinkers and great members.

Every subject has it's zealots and these people ought never be taken very seriously. Just pat them on the head and tell them "There there, of course you're not a raving lunatic". Then move on to converse with those capable or reasonable, logical discourse.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

I hadn't in relation to my question. But I don't think that really answers the OP. Take a look at this thread, for instance:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, the OP in this thread has a title which suggests this is a "space ship" that is using it's thrusters to get away from the gravity of the moon. Lots of stars, lots of flags. Where is the desire to figure out what this object actually is? Any such desire seems to be met with little interest. Is it a "human space ship"? That idea didn't seem to be met with nearly the same enthusiasm.

Why is it that some assume the object in question is an alien space craft before exhausting all other possibilities?

Ppl wouldn't have said spaceship if there was any other explanation for that object . Seriously , is there any rational explanation !!!

I've never ever seen anything , man made , that tumbled like that from the surface of the moon . Have you ?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: DeadSeraph

Hiya. I think there's a destructuring element that can kick in after someone's had a ghost, NDE or UFO experience. You're minding your own business and life is exactly what it's meant to be when some weird ingredient is suddenly thrust into your life.

Afterwards, the boundaries people had become a little more blurred. For example, 'when we die, it's over.' For the person who has an experience of 'ghosts' in their home, they have to reconsider whether death really is the end. From that point, they have to consider *why* a ghost might remain on Earth and *why* it does what it does. The same with seeing a UFO, we all *know* they don't exist as more than hoaxes and misperceptions. But after someone sees a UFO, they have to reappraise their previous beliefs and can't avoid speculating.

I appreciate your response a great deal. On one side, the 'blurred boundaries' have become more like porous sponge where everything is sucked in an held as truth - on the other side there is no curiosity, no admission of anything possibly outside the ridged internal boundaries of "real" v "not real."

Having experienced the blurring of boundaries in regards to UFOs, my approach is one of curiosity and an intense desire to understand what it was that happened - no luck, by the way, on figuring that out yet, really, other than it fits in the category of "unexplained." I am glad you understand what that means.

I've also come near to death on more than one occasion, personally, and have been fascinated by NDE's since High School when I interviewed a young man for my Psychology class who had one for several minutes before popping out of a six month long coma. The thinning of the veil is not new to me, though it is an extremely personal thing.

There are so many mysteries that fall outside of what science is willing, or even able, to investigate with proper methods. This doesn't mean science and logic should be thrown out by any means, only that in very real terms, their ability to give us "the truth" goes no further than their ability to explain within the boundaries of what has already been learned and agreed upon as "what is real." Within those bounds, there is argument, clashes of theory, and boundaries yet to be broken right beside well-devolped standards and foundations of physics.

My point is there are many ways of "knowing" and discovering truth, as we hold our little candles up against the vast dark void of all we do not know: science, rational thought, historical documents, narratives and witnesses, fact finding, and even intuitive "connecting of the dots" or "pattern seeking" are all valid ways of exploring phenomenon for oneself, regardless of finding satisfactory "proof" that meets everyone else's standards. I find a combination of methods serves me well. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I'm very glad for your post. I have at times been uncertain as to your personal stance on things, and now I find we are on far more similar ground than I had gleaned before now. Thank you.

peace,
AB

a reply to: ETWolf

It could be anything. It could be an object in Earth's orbit viewed in front of the camera, it could be a returning probe, etc etc.

Why do you assume it's an alien spaceship?

a reply to: DeadSeraph

well here is the problem with you guys . You say it could be an object in Earth's orbit , but is there any supporting evidence to backup that claim ? NO

You say it could be returning probe , but again is there a supporting evidence to show us any probe that behaves like the object in question ? NO . Does anyone here in ATS seen such probe ? I guess NO

As long as they cannot provide some rational explanation , everyone reserves the right to name it what they believe , without getting ridiculed .

If someone from the government or military comes forward and says its part of their secret project , the spaceship theory become null and void .

We are the free thinkers !!!!

a reply to: AboveBoard

Anyway, I'm very glad for your post. I have at times been uncertain as to your personal stance on things, and now I find we are on far more similar ground than I had gleaned before now. Thank you.

Thank you too

Your comments are well-made, well-taken and, yes, they make sense.

I try to keep my own counsel and listen carefully to others. We're complicated people studying complicated subjects. We needn't adopt roles, or advocate one explanation over another, when so many of our predecessors have done so and fallen short. Nobody knows my personal stance as it's still under construction and the few conclusions I have drawn remain unspoken and subject to change.

Anyway, let's toast to the pursuit of knowledge

a reply to: ETWolf

Is there any supporting evidence to suggest it's an alien space ship?

Why are you so confident one possibility (the mundane) should be dismissed, and the fantastic embraced solely because....well, because why?

a reply to: Kandinsky

Indeed!

We are agreed. I have no need to be "right," just as accurate as I can be from my own ability and experience. I generally hold what I "know" for myself to be "true" close to my chest as I'm quite aware that what I "know" might morph with new information.

To the journey...





- AB

a reply to: AboveBoard
Sometimes I hate when that happens, that morphing thing….
lol
tetra

a reply to: Kandinsky
Good morning to you, Kandinsky:

I try never, ever to contend (in this case, it even means "reply" to) contend with a moderator, in any way, shape or form or even "form constant," to a moderator. But,

Afterwards, the boundaries people had become a little more blurred. For example, 'when we die, it's over.' For the person who has an experience of 'ghosts' in their home, they have to reconsider whether death really is the end. From that point, they have to consider *why* a ghost might remain on Earth and *why* it does what it does. The same with seeing a UFO, we all *know* they don't exist as more than hoaxes and misperceptions. But after someone sees a UFO, they have to reappraise their previous beliefs and can't avoid speculating.

cannot help but do so here.

It seems to me, increasingly, we are all find ourselves having to speculate more and more these days, just as I find myself having to do more with my left hand as my right seems prone to spazz out on me these days accompanying some health issues, the truth being more elusive all the time.

Technology lands us on what seems a lonely island….
And yet, technology does so much that is positive for us, as even speculating may be positive for us, as well, as it may be a way that broadens our thinking scope and find that instead of landing on a lonely shore we are standing along with a crowd…..
regards,
tetra

a reply to: DeadSeraph

LOL . I was expecting that counter question , which means this loop of question and counter question will continue as long as we don't get the truth .

Neither i can prove nor you can disprove it ain't a spaceship .

Case closed . Its an unidentified object and needs further investigation .

See ? UFO believers aren't totally the bad guys here . They keep their options open but there are hardcore skeptics who wont stop here and start bad mouthing the free thinkers.

For, me, I need more data. So every time there is a new story, sighting, video, whistleblower etc, that I find interesting, I will star and flag. However, a star and flag don't really mean anything in the realm of things.

I find that maybe 10% of what I see here in UFO, Planetary anomaly etc has merit for further investigation. That's just me though. I want more of these things, more threads, more everything so that I can really see what's going on. More data is the only way.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
Simple question to the people that frequent the UFO forum. More specifically, to the people that star and flag EVERY SINGLE VIDEO and don't ask critical questions about the material. Or the people that accuse those of us with slightly more skeptical minds of being "paid shills".

The Question is this: Why is your bar set so low? I've seen you guys star and flag easily explainable videos like they were high definition video of flying saucers landing on the white house lawn and meeting with the President. Why is it that almost anything you see that tickles your preconceived notions is automatically a UFO, and you very rarely try to find more logical explanations for what you THINK you are seeing?

From what I can tell there are a ton of people who have the following combination at play who frequent this forum and snap up tickets to UFO conferences:

1) Lack of critical thinking skills
2) Scientific illiteracy
3) A need to believe a certain narrative

It really is that simple.

People who are seriously interested in the subject who are serious researchers know that 99% of the stuff posted on Youtube regarding UFOs is junk.