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originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: zardust
Everything you point out about the 1st century and it's generation is true, but Matthew 24 and the other mirror gospel accounts point to secondary major fulfillment.
This concept of double prophecy is shaky at best. Unless you are speaking of a literal fulfillment in time and a fulfillment in the Spiritual then yes I would agree. But the idea that this waits a future fulfillment on earth, along with a hodgepodge of other supposed end times events is like I said shaky at best.
For example Matthew 24:14 talks about the message being spread around the world then the end comes, in the first century that world would encompass all the territories Jews lived in even beyond the geographical area of Judea basically the Roman Empire, it did not include North & South America for example.
And Paul said that he had preached the gospel to the whole world, you are correct when you say that for the whole world would be "known" territories. But why do you then deny that fact as the reference for the statement "preach to the whole world"
Also what end was coming, for gentiles there was no end, it was of no matter to them really.
The secondary major application of that scripture would come much later and this time it would be truly global this "end" coming would matter to every human on the planet this time. So I fully understand what you are saying, but major and minor prophesies that have duel use were used by Jesus. This also applied to "Generation" too.
Again I don't believe this is so, where is the evidence? And why would it be truly global when the words used are as you say about the territories known. Mainly when "the land" was used it was meaning Israel. "Heaven and Earth" meant the temple and the land of Israel.
Also Jesus compared it to Noah's day, which was a global event.
unless it was a local flood, or a reworking of the Gilgamesh epic, or their version of the local flood hero's. The word used in Genesis for earth again means the local land, it could have meant the Levant, or the Nile valley, or the Tigris/Euphrates Plain, but to those folks a few weeks journey in each direction was "the world". Taking a literalist approach to the OT (and much of the NT) leads to a god committing genocide on millions of innocent people. Since Jesus is the exact image of the Father, you need to square that act with his character, which looks nothing like the monstrous god that f-ed up and had to kill all his kids. Man brings death and destruction to the table (and blames it on God), not God as revealed in Jesus
New American Standard Bible
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
King James Bible
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things (old man/ law of death) passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
1The Revelation[G602] of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; 2who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[2Co 12:1-3 RSV] 1 I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations[G602] of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
[Luk 2:32 RSV] 32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel." this pretty much sums up the message, as the unveiling of the light (the logos in-fleshed, God in his tabernacle---US)
[Rom 8:19 RSV] 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; Sons, plural, not Jesus coming down on the clouds
[Rom 16:25 RSV] 25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret for long ages
[Eph 1:17 RSV] 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
[Eph 3:3 RSV] 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
[Gal 1:11-12, 16 RSV] 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation (g602) of Jesus Christ. ... 16 was pleased to reveal (g601) his Son to me (the word to is en, which is IN, God unveiled His Son IN me), in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood,
[Mat 16:17 RSV] 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (what is revealed? that Jesus is the Christ/the divine Logos, and this→ the Revelation from The Father is what Jesus builds his church on)
[Gal 3:23 RSV] 23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed.
[Eph 3:5 RSV] 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
[Luk 10:21 RSV] 21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
[1Co 2:7 RSV] 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
[Eph 3:9 RSV] 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;
[Col 1:26 RSV] 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.
Check out the usage of the word Mystery
by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. (UN-Veiled) 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
6The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.
9And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us.
This is the LORD for whom we have waited;
Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.”
originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: Rex282
I like your take on this Rex282. Really trying to understand what you have written here.
So if Jesus wasn't the political savior Christ of the Jews, and warned the early believers that he wasn't this Jewish Christ, and this generation refers to a kind of people that are blind to this fact, then who was Jesus anyway?
originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
a reply to: Rex282
Was Jesus as he saw himself? Who did he say he was if he wasn't the Christ that his Jewish followers thought he was?