It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Vatican thinker brands US woman's suicide 'wicked'

page: 3
7
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:36 AM
link   
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: DeathSlayer
You do NOT have your facts straight. I am not sure where you get them from ...

The facts are there. The sources are shown. Go back and read. You are wrong.

Bottom line - no one has a right to tell others how they should end their life. If people want to end it before the intense pain hits or before the loss of dignity comes into play, then that's their right. It's not 'cowardly' or 'selfish' .. it's their right. What is selfish is those who want to deny suffering people the right to end their life as they see fit.

No one has a right to force their religious or personal beliefs on those who are dying. That includes people saying 'assisted suicide should not be accepted'. If YOU don't want assisted suicide at the end, then don't do it. But try to have the basic understanding that you have no right to force your beliefs on others.

Thankfully the movement in this country is away from allowing others to dictate how we live and/or end our lives. Death with dignity .. if a person wants to opt out before they are in pain and before they can't function, then that should be their right and no busybody should be able to interfere.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: spelling




posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:36 AM
link   
a reply to: WarminIndy
Starred! These are reasonable questions to ask. In my opinion the media, if not a direct branch of the banksters, corporations, and the government, may as well be. They nab on to anything that, in the end, supports the system, and not the people. So it's no wonder we might wonder why they sensationalized this story. And honestly, I don't have a pat answer, but given the media's penchant for dividing the people, I suspect they certainly want this to be a topic of discussion. Therefore, at least right now, I see it as more of a pulse-taking story. A thermometer. Though I have wondered if they are blurring the lines.

Your scenario of this building into an expectation for those who are no longer able to "contribute" physically to society, and are considered a drain on resources is a realistic question. Could we be looking at a time in the future where it becomes an unspoken rule for the elderly, disabled, chronically ill, and so on to end their lives so as not to be a burden on the rest of us? Lets hope not. That would truly be a shameful state of affairs.

Lastly, my own thoughts on suicide. I am probably more to the extreme than most here at ATS. I think anyone who doesn't want to be here any more, has the right to end their life. It's their life to live or die, and the rest of us have no business telling them they can or can't.
Leaving aside religion for the moment. I think those who are so opposed to suicide are themselves being selfish and controlling. Then of course, you have the BCG(see above) who would rather you didn't off yourself to get out of debt, or out of the system, for several reasons I won't go into here.
On the flip side, suicide is final. There's no coming back. We are living in a society that has utterly failed in supporting those who need help the most. And by that, I mean you and me. Not the government, and their social programs.

Sorry. Got a bit wordy there.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:57 AM
link   
a reply to: DeathSlayer


Suicide is killing oneself. One of the ten commandments - Thou shall not kill (actually it means murder). Suicide is murder of oneself. The last act committed while alive was killing oneself - there is no repentance!

I understand the fundamentalist doctrine on this all too well. Simply put. It's wrong. imho.


I have seen miracles occur just like millions of other people have. Maybe there would have been one in her life before she died but now we all will never know.

Really? Do you think these people could get a miracle? They could sure use one right now.


There is medication available to control the worst type of pain known to man.

Yes. There are ways to eliminate pain for a dying person. Not only is it unwise in certain situations, but it is beside the point.

As to the rest of your points. What if 25% of the worlds population decided they didn't want to be here any more, and killed themselves? Instead of being so self-centered, maybe we need to look at WHY so many people would want to kill themselves if it was legal, and there was no punishment in the afterlife for doing so(And there isn't).



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 08:57 AM
link   
a reply to: FlyersFan




The International Tribunal of Crimes of Church and State is a well known HOAX. There is no ITCCS and there was no tribunal, etc etc.


That's not true! Kevin Arnette takes himself and his organization very seriously. Just because many dismiss him and his efforts doesn't make his organization a HOAX.


hoax
hōks/Submit
noun
1.
a humorous or malicious deception.
"they recognized the plan as a hoax"
synonyms: practical joke, joke, jest, prank, trick; ruse, deception, fraud, bluff, confidence trick; informalcon, spoof, scam, setup
verb
verb: hoax; 3rd person present: hoaxes; past tense: hoaxed; past participle: hoaxed; gerund or present participle: hoaxing
1.
deceive with a hoax.
synonyms: practical joke, joke, jest, prank, trick; ruse, deception, fraud,


What Kevin Arnette has done is expose the Catholic Church for it's crimes against humanity, and that's the truth.

a reply to: DeathSlayer




Suicide show fear and doubt.
Someone who has given up.
Negative though pattern for others.


Suicide show bravery, courage and intense faith!


Luke 4:9And he led Him to Jerusalem and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,'…


I have no doubt that this young women had every amount of faith that she was leaping into the arms of angels.

And, don't forget, Jesus' whole life was about the suicide he came to commit.
edit on 5-11-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 09:08 AM
link   
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

a reply to: windword
I get that people hate the Catholic church and that guy goes after it, but no amount of wishful thinking will turn that guys site into anything other than a misleading hoax. It's just a guy in a basement pumping out anti-Catholic stuff. Nothing more.

Rational Wiki - International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State

The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and State (or ITCCS) is a one-man blog that pretends to be a tribunal established to enforce common law. Despite claims of being based in Brussels, the whole thing is written in Canada by Kevin D. Annett, a defrocked United Church of Canada minister.

t the heart of the "organization" is something Annett calls the International Common Law Court of Justice (ICLCJ), which is rather similar to those "common law courts" sometimes set up by freemen-on-the-land, right down to the "citizen jurors". This court exists only on Annett's blog.

With the ITCCS, Annett attempts to mimic genuine international organisations, and is actually good enough at this to have fooled a few normal people (and a lot of raving conspiracy-prone nutters) into thinking there's anything at all to this. He produces very nicely-formatted, official-looking documents and everything. However, an examination of the blog's actual content will quickly reveal that in legal terms, it's not even wrong even by pseudolaw standards. Annett has "convicted" two consecutive Popes of genocide and child trafficking, issuing "international arrest warrants" for them. He has also issued a proclamation dissolving Canada. And Great Britain, though that one was only on Twitter.


SNOPES on the ITCCS BLOG

As for the second part of your post - about the topic of this woman ending her life with dignity - I totally agree.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: mod tags



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 09:12 AM
link   
a reply to: FlyersFan

Kevin Arnette may be drunk off his own his Kool-Aid, but he isn't a jokster or a hoaxster. He means business, even if it is mostly wishful thinking, there are plenty of cultish supporters on his bandwagon.

And, yeah! Everyone has the right to die with dignity.


edit on 5-11-2014 by windword because: souls don't die!



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 09:18 AM
link   
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

a reply to: windword
He may mean business but he isn't a tribunal or a court. It's just a one man blog. He tries to present himself as something he isn't. So it's fake. I get that people want to go after the Vatican and what may (probably is) happening behind the walls, but this guy is just wrong on all levels. No credibility. Sorry.

That brings us to the Vatican and the topic. The person at the Vatican who called this evil has to. It's part of the religion to say that taking a life is evil. However, I really think that Pope Francis thinks outside the box and he probably called this guy into his office and boxed his ears. It showed no compassion for the dying suffering woman. His was bronze-age thinking in a more educated modern and understanding world.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 09:50 AM
link   
a reply to: FlyersFan




His was bronze-age thinking in a more educated modern and understanding world.


Bronze age? I don't think so. This is "Dark age" western thought.

Suicide wasn't a shameful thing for Old Testament following people. Samson committed suicide.


Judges 16:29-30 Samson had been chained to the two middle pillars of a temple. He pushed them apart. thereby knowingly causing the collapse of the building, his own suicide and the death of a few thousand Philistines inside. The death toll exceeded the number of people that he had killed during the rest of his life -which was considerable. Samson had been blinded, and no longer wanted to live as a captive. By causing his own death, he had a chance to destroy many of the enemy.


King Saul and his amour bearer both committed suicide.


1 Samuel 31:4-6 In a war against the Philistines, Saul's sons Johnathan, Abinadab, and Malchishua were killed, and Saul himself was seriously wounded. He asked his armor bearer to kill him, but his assistant refused. So he took a sword and fell on it. The armor bearer then also fell on his sword. Both ended up committing suicide. The same events are also described in a parallel passage: 1 Chronicles 10:3-7. Saul's justification for committing suicide was that because of his injuries, if the Philistines arrived, he would have been abused and killed by uncircumcised men.


Remember Masada?


Flavius dramatically recounts the story told him by two surviving women. The defenders – almost one thousand men, women and children – led by ben Yair, burnt down the fortress and killed each other. The Zealots cast lots to choose 10 men to kill the remainder. They then chose among themselves the one man who would kill the survivors. That last Jew then killed himself.

Elazar’s final speech clearly was a masterful oration:

"Since we long ago resolved never to be servants to the Romans, nor to any other than to God Himself, Who alone is the true and just Lord of mankind, the time is now come that obliges us to make that resolution true in practice ...We were the very first that revolted, and we are the last to fight against them; and I cannot but esteem it as a favor that God has granted us, that it is still in our power to die bravely, and in a state of freedom."
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...


www.religioustolerance.org...



John 12:25
He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.


In the east, suicide was expected of a courageous and proud warrior who failed or disappointed.



It's just a one man blog.


He has his supporters.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:03 AM
link   
I just don't understand why some people don't want other people to live their lives as the individual wants. Everyone has to control one another for some perverted reason.
Your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa.

As to morphine... that drug blocks the uptake receptors of dopamine in the brain. Over time, those uptake receptors shrink due to under use. This causes a physical change in the brain forcing higher tolerance. This is the reason for the physical dependence of the drug. It isn't the drug itself that "kills pain", it is the increase in dopamine in the brain.

[OPINION]
Opiates are not that great of a medicine either, not in the super concentrated, refined form. Just more potent.
[/OPINION]

If someone doesn't want to live in constant excruciating debilitating pain for the rest of their life (whether it be a day or years), why not let them end their suffering. Let those close to the person help deal with it. Hopefully the person deciding this, will inform those close to them as to why, and the person will go in peace.

If it isn't your life, then you really have little say. Even if you are a blood relative, spouse, etc.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:16 AM
link   
a reply to: windword

Just one question though, if you agree with it, are you capable of being the one to actually do it?

Assisted suicide isn't just suicide, it is asking someone to help you with the suicide. The girl could have just taken an overdose and went quietly alone.

Assisted means to be helped, so who would be the one to actually help? That's the psychological aspect I was questioning. And there are times when people have tried to commit suicide and it failed and they lived differently after. So if we are talking about assisted, what does one have to change in their own minds and what would be the motivation for doing so?

I have known people who committed suicide. They didn't ask for assistance. But in this slippery slope, when it comes to be assisted, where will it lead to? I'm only being reasonable here, it's one thing to do it on your own, it is quite another to ask someone to help you.

Would you be capable of giving the shot or holding the pillow over their face? Yes, we have executions in this country and it is no easy thing for them to do. And whether or not you agree with religion, even at that moment the person is allowed clergy of their choice. But it isn't easy for the executioner.

While we might or might not agree with capital punishment, the point is that some person had to do it and if some person has to do it for others who are sick, then why can't we address that?

Like it or not, when it is assisted means they were helped and what's in it for the person who is doing the helping?



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:18 AM
link   
It's pretty wicked of an all loving God to be dishing out brain tumours to good people



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:22 AM
link   

originally posted by: windword
Bronze age? I don't think so. This is "Dark age" western thought.

You are right. His is 'Dark Age' thought when it comes to suicide.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:25 AM
link   
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

a reply to: WarminIndy

If someone asked me to help, and it was legal for me to do the helping and I agreed with their wanting to do it, then I would help (by being there with the person when the person took the prescribed drugs). It would depend on the situation. Most likely .. yes. I'm not sure that it's legal for family members to 'assist'. I've read that they aren't allowed to touch any of the drugs or hand them to the person or anything like that. (that was a few years ago I read that, it could have changed). I think the 'assisted' part is the doctor who does the prescribing of the drugs.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:30 AM
link   
a reply to: WarminIndy

I've made arrangements with my daughter, we have an agreement. She's a research doctor and has access to the best drugs out there, she assures me.

And, yes, I'd do the same for her, should the need arise.

Both my parents had "Living Wills" and I sat with them both while they ended their lives. It took my father 5 days to die. It took my mother 5 hours.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

I've made arrangements with my daughter, we have an agreement. She's a research doctor and has access to the best drugs out there, she assures me.

And, yes, I'd do the same for her, should the need arise.

Both my parents had "Living Wills" and I sat with them both while they ended their lives. It took my father 5 days to die. It took my mother 5 hours.


But at the end of the day, whose decision is it really?

You might have an arrangement with your daughter but at the end of the day it is still your daughter's decision and suppose at that last moment she has doubts? You cannot predict that.

If you encourage her at the very end to remove her doubts, then that is you making the decision for her. If it is her choice then she needs to do it herself, because the moment you decide to make it your decision then it is no longer hers. I have the DNR signed with my health care agency, their aids they send to me know that they can't resuscitate me, but I made that decision myself for myself without any input from anyone else and I didn't have to discuss it or make arrangements with my family. So yes, I know what the discussion is about.

It all sounds wonderful and good, but at that very last moment when the person wants to open their eyes and live a little longer, then how can we make that decision for them? I say that if someone wants to go, then just do it. This isn't just about the person, it is about their families and loved ones as well and if we are all pro-choice then that decision needs to be left solely to the person and no one else.

You cannot predict right now how you or your daughter will be thinking at that last moment. Neither you nor your daughter are your parents.



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 10:55 AM
link   
a reply to: DeathSlayer


I say act like an adult and when it comes to die NATURALLY then it will happen.


You can't die naturally if people are keeping you alive. And people will keep you alive because they think it's the same thing as not killing you

Acting like an adult should involve mercy

I've always heard that God is merciful - is that a lie?
edit on 11/5/2014 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 11:07 AM
link   
a reply to: WarminIndy

It's about mercy. When and if the time comes, there won't be any doubt.

ETA:




I have the DNR signed with my health care agency, their aids they send to me know that they can't resuscitate me, but I made that decision myself for myself without any input from anyone else and I didn't have to discuss it or make arrangements with my family. So yes, I know what the discussion is about.


Both my parent died painful miserable deaths due to their DNRs. I would prefer to die on my terms than languish in a morphine stew with no food or water for 5 days.

edit on 5-11-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 11:08 AM
link   
a reply to: FlyersFan

Excellent post - very useful information

People that haven't been through this experience would like to believe that pain meds make suffering tolerable. Sometimes yes - sometimes not at all. As with everything medicinal - there are unintended consequences and other kinds of discomfort to factor in

None of this is pleasant, and most people would rather not think about any of it. Most people want to do the right thing

Society needs to come together on this subject. Keeping someone alive in spite of everything is neither kindness or God's will - it's barbaric



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 11:36 AM
link   
a reply to: Spiramirabilis


originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
You can't die naturally if people are keeping you alive. And people will keep you alive because they think it's the same thing as not killing you


Good point, and it's interesting people are saying that this suicide was "selfish". Isn't it selfish to make a person go through extreme suffering against their will just so THEY can be happy?



posted on Nov, 5 2014 @ 11:41 AM
link   
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


originally posted by: windword
Both my parent died painful miserable deaths due to their DNRs.

My DNR specifically states that I"m to receive pain/calming medications even it it hastens my death. In other words - drug me up and send me off to whatever comes next.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



edit on 11/5/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)




top topics



 
7
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join