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Paradox Waves - Time Travel to the Past Does Not Affect the Present
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a reply to: anonentity
It is strange that you mention "orbs" and "time slips". Since this is the moment of pure conjecture, might as well share a fun idea I had too. Some days ago I was trying to figure out what would happen if an alternate reality existed right behind (in the past of) the veil of our own. As long as the two spacetime curve match, we would notice nothing:
But what if... in the alternate past, the planet was destroyed? The planet would exist in the present but not in the modified past, and the two spacetime curvatures would stop matching, creating an intersecting area of the two spacetimes:
In 2-D the intersecting area would look like a circle:
And in 3-D, it would look like a sphere:
This sphere would be like a spherical piece of the other universe, like a 3-d window to the past.
Remember this is pure speculation, though - I would not bet on this. I just thought I'd share this random crazy thought.
Why shouldn't this occur in other ways. Pure conjecture but its fun. Where you get reports of time slips, orbs or "the light seemed strange" seems to be a recurring theme.
It is strange that you mention "orbs" and "time slips". Since this is the moment of pure conjecture, might as well share a fun idea I had too. Some days ago I was trying to figure out what would happen if an alternate reality existed right behind (in the past of) the veil of our own. As long as the two spacetime curve match, we would notice nothing:
But what if... in the alternate past, the planet was destroyed? The planet would exist in the present but not in the modified past, and the two spacetime curvatures would stop matching, creating an intersecting area of the two spacetimes:
In 2-D the intersecting area would look like a circle:
And in 3-D, it would look like a sphere:
This sphere would be like a spherical piece of the other universe, like a 3-d window to the past.
Remember this is pure speculation, though - I would not bet on this. I just thought I'd share this random crazy thought.
a reply to: swanne
An interesting fun idea. Thanks for sharing. The nature of reality as such, is open to much speculation as many as their are observers. My prime speculation is that even if it were essentially a virtual experience, it would still require the logic of cause and effect to decode it into linear reason, from what would otherwise be chaos, and therefore into a workable reality. Therefore a concept of linear time is essential for this process.To further speculate, all observations could be occurring, in flatland, Where dimensions and time don't really exist. The event horizon being the end of reality, where linear time for the observer ceases. This, our reality could also be an artefact, like the event horizon could be an artefact. I learn that two and two make four. After learning,this is an unchanging fact of my observations on the reality. This is information, everything is information. The senses gather information, and we make a model of reality, based on linear reason. Then we agree on it with discussions with others. Because we are social and don't trust what we see or understand. Then things like quantum science, and Black Holes, no longer fit into our reality . But they exist, and wont un exist. So our concept of the reality must change. Now we have a reality where time stops for us the Observer on the event horizon, but it is highly unlikely that the one entering the event horizon experiences anything anomalous regarding time. So he looks back at us, and sees a blur of activity to fast for him to comprehend, the information he had regarding our reality is no longer valid, because it has become to him chaos. He is almost now a person from another Universe trying to make sense of what he observes, he cant because now he has escaped linear time. To us, the information which was him is smeared on the event horizon. To him the information which was us is also smeared, and to him can no longer be gathered in linear time. The two Observers are equally valid so it could be that we are also information smeared on an event horizon. Where time dictates the nature, of the available information, and your speed dictates your position.
An interesting fun idea. Thanks for sharing. The nature of reality as such, is open to much speculation as many as their are observers. My prime speculation is that even if it were essentially a virtual experience, it would still require the logic of cause and effect to decode it into linear reason, from what would otherwise be chaos, and therefore into a workable reality. Therefore a concept of linear time is essential for this process.To further speculate, all observations could be occurring, in flatland, Where dimensions and time don't really exist. The event horizon being the end of reality, where linear time for the observer ceases. This, our reality could also be an artefact, like the event horizon could be an artefact. I learn that two and two make four. After learning,this is an unchanging fact of my observations on the reality. This is information, everything is information. The senses gather information, and we make a model of reality, based on linear reason. Then we agree on it with discussions with others. Because we are social and don't trust what we see or understand. Then things like quantum science, and Black Holes, no longer fit into our reality . But they exist, and wont un exist. So our concept of the reality must change. Now we have a reality where time stops for us the Observer on the event horizon, but it is highly unlikely that the one entering the event horizon experiences anything anomalous regarding time. So he looks back at us, and sees a blur of activity to fast for him to comprehend, the information he had regarding our reality is no longer valid, because it has become to him chaos. He is almost now a person from another Universe trying to make sense of what he observes, he cant because now he has escaped linear time. To us, the information which was him is smeared on the event horizon. To him the information which was us is also smeared, and to him can no longer be gathered in linear time. The two Observers are equally valid so it could be that we are also information smeared on an event horizon. Where time dictates the nature, of the available information, and your speed dictates your position.
a reply to: swanne
So from what you telling me. If i had a time machine i could do this.
1) Go to a casino.
2) Go back in time before i arrived there.
3) Bet my life savings on a roulette.
If i lose -
4) Go back in time a second before i arrived in the past the first time.
5) Repeat steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 until i win.
Due to your explanation the "ME" in this time will arrive to the casino (1) and go back in time (2). I can just stay in present and enjoy my winnings without dealing with my twin.
.... Cool.
So from what you telling me. If i had a time machine i could do this.
1) Go to a casino.
2) Go back in time before i arrived there.
3) Bet my life savings on a roulette.
If i lose -
4) Go back in time a second before i arrived in the past the first time.
5) Repeat steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 until i win.
Due to your explanation the "ME" in this time will arrive to the casino (1) and go back in time (2). I can just stay in present and enjoy my winnings without dealing with my twin.
.... Cool.
a reply to: Heruactic
That is essentially it.
Though remember the "you" of the present is here the one who keeps going back in time - the "you" which entered the casino the first time is located in your past relative to causality string, or in the future relative to the time axis. You'll still enjoy your winnings, though - the losers will be no more than a memory.
That is essentially it.
Though remember the "you" of the present is here the one who keeps going back in time - the "you" which entered the casino the first time is located in your past relative to causality string, or in the future relative to the time axis. You'll still enjoy your winnings, though - the losers will be no more than a memory.
originally posted by: anonentity
Now we have a reality where time stops for us the Observer on the event horizon, but it is highly unlikely that the one entering the event horizon experiences anything anomalous regarding time.
Right you are.
So he looks back at us, and sees a blur of activity to fast for him to comprehend, the information he had regarding our reality is no longer valid, because it has become to him chaos.
It is true that he will see outside time accelerating, once again you're right. You actually make more and more sense the more I think about this.
Though I wonder what happens when the outside universe dies in a Big Crunch scenario? What will the observer perceive then - after everything has collapsed back on itself, after space and time were themselves destroyed? Will the observer inside the black hole finally witness what exists outside the universe - that which Is when our universe is no more? Will he witness what existed before the universe came to be?
originally posted by: swanne
originally posted by: anonentity
Now we have a reality where time stops for us the Observer on the event horizon, but it is highly unlikely that the one entering the event horizon experiences anything anomalous regarding time.
Right you are.
So he looks back at us, and sees a blur of activity to fast for him to comprehend, the information he had regarding our reality is no longer valid, because it has become to him chaos.
It is true that he will see outside time accelerating, once again you're right. You actually make more and more sense the more I think about this.
Though I wonder what happens when the outside universe dies in a Big Crunch scenario? What will the observer perceive then - after everything has collapsed back on itself, after space and time were themselves destroyed? Will the observer inside the black hole finally witness what exists outside the universe - that which Is when our universe is no more? Will he witness what existed before the universe came to be?
After I posted this I had the same thought, and realised that I should have said. As he looks back he sees nothing, as where he has come from has finished its cycle. As it has sped up so much from his point of view it must have reached the end game. Since he has no longer anyone to observe the aspect of him frozen on the event horizon. Which is an artefact anyway, as the observer is just observing a frozen aspect of time, which no longer has any relevance. He may already have progressed back in time, to a point where the universe exists again. Its a great way to conserve energy, and more to the point an efficient way to conserve all information. Because it wouldn't need conserving as it all always exists at a certain place in space time. Does the Universe exist without an observer?
As we interpret the information, the model we find ourselves dealing with either satisfies logic or not as the case may be. Does time travel exist? of course because we are travelling it here and now. Can its normal flow be manipulated, I think its highly likely, that some natural occurrence causes anomalies. Like out of place artefacts. Honest reports of people finding themselves in other time zones. People who just seem to disappear. The more speed the more the flow slows. where does it say that the speed of linear motion causes the effect? Why not the actual harmonic vibration of matter, by natural or unnatural causes, it remains motion by any definition. Then once the right frequency is reached, most likely high energy short wave. Couldn't the same type of anomaly occur as it does on the event horizon?
]edit on 3-12-2014 by anonentity because: (no reason given)
edit on 3-12-2014 by anonentity because: (no reason given)
a reply to: anonentity
Indeed. Though I do not believe that an observer is needed for an universe to exist - otherwise it would mean that alternate universes with different constants (not suited for life) would be forbidden to exist. But yes, I agree - the frozen image of the man inside the black hole has no relevance to the outside universe - ideally, the image would be frozen for eternity. But to the man inside (assuming he hasn't been turned into an elemental particles stream), his time would flow normally.
It would actually create some more energy - the one you carry as you go back in time, and the one already there in the destination universe. In essence, travel back in time implies a violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics - but I have no worries, because the Law was derived from observation of phenomenon in normal, linear time; it is very much probable that the Law does not apply to systems travelling back in time.
Exactly.
I read alot about those, too, and I am fascinated by these accounts. In fact, trying to prove/disprove time slip cases lead me to push current spacetime models to their limit to see what they have to say, and that is how my OP was born.
Special Relativity Theory says so. I personally consider it as such - a theory, albeit a successful one - but in Einstein's defence, SRT makes a very good case, as I have explained in this thread: Special Relativity Theory
Since he has no longer anyone to observe the aspect of him frozen on the event horizon. Which is an artefact anyway, as the observer is just observing a frozen aspect of time, which no longer has any relevance.
Indeed. Though I do not believe that an observer is needed for an universe to exist - otherwise it would mean that alternate universes with different constants (not suited for life) would be forbidden to exist. But yes, I agree - the frozen image of the man inside the black hole has no relevance to the outside universe - ideally, the image would be frozen for eternity. But to the man inside (assuming he hasn't been turned into an elemental particles stream), his time would flow normally.
He may already have progressed back in time, to a point where the universe exists again. Its a great way to conserve energy, and more to the point an efficient way to conserve all information.
It would actually create some more energy - the one you carry as you go back in time, and the one already there in the destination universe. In essence, travel back in time implies a violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics - but I have no worries, because the Law was derived from observation of phenomenon in normal, linear time; it is very much probable that the Law does not apply to systems travelling back in time.
Does time travel exist? of course because we are travelling it here and now.
Exactly.
Can its normal flow be manipulated, I think its highly likely, that some natural occurrence causes anomalies. Like out of place artefacts. Honest reports of people finding themselves in other time zones. People who just seem to disappear.
I read alot about those, too, and I am fascinated by these accounts. In fact, trying to prove/disprove time slip cases lead me to push current spacetime models to their limit to see what they have to say, and that is how my OP was born.
The more speed the more the flow slows. where does it say that the speed of linear motion causes the effect?
Special Relativity Theory says so. I personally consider it as such - a theory, albeit a successful one - but in Einstein's defence, SRT makes a very good case, as I have explained in this thread: Special Relativity Theory
edit on 5-12-2014 by swanne because: (no reason given)
a reply to: swanne
Speculation is fun and even the hallowed S.T.R. Might have other interpretations. Like, most things observed by our senses are interpretations of electromagnetic waves. What if time itself was a waveform?. In normal life we would all reference things from the same reference point. But the guy in the space ship accelerating up to the speed of light, is now experiencing the peaks and troughs of the waveform, a lot faster than us. Which causes the time dilation. Because this effect would occur, in any direction of space he decided to steer his spaceship, We must speculate that the waveform is omnidirectional. In fact a type of holographic wave. Further, The distance between the peaks and troughs of the wave, are , Which we could say interprets at X megahertz. For the guy in the spaceship from his point of view travelling at the speed he is, because he is intercepting the wave a lot faster his reading of time between the peaks and crests of the wave, makes the wave a lot shorter, say Y megahertz which seems counter intuitive, as its our time relative to him which is speeding up and to us he is slowing down. But from his point of observation the Universe has speeded up, Like it did when he was on the event horizon of the black hole. Which straightens things out again as the faster he goes the more the Universe is speeded up.
We could go further and suggest that the Universe, is a standing wave matrix, and that the observers speed through the wave dictates the personal space time reality. As waves can pass through each other, and remain unaffected, the multiverse theory holds water. Or something like that, If in fact the Universe in reality is primarily a stable static event. Then our interpretation of matter is just a model that works as a thought form, where the reality its just an interpretation of the waveform in which we find ourselves.
So in this model the only thing that could alter time , would be the same frequency which would cancels each other out. Which might be that which occurs in time slip experiences. Which could also cause a lot of other anomalous events which on the surface make no sense.
Speculation is fun and even the hallowed S.T.R. Might have other interpretations. Like, most things observed by our senses are interpretations of electromagnetic waves. What if time itself was a waveform?. In normal life we would all reference things from the same reference point. But the guy in the space ship accelerating up to the speed of light, is now experiencing the peaks and troughs of the waveform, a lot faster than us. Which causes the time dilation. Because this effect would occur, in any direction of space he decided to steer his spaceship, We must speculate that the waveform is omnidirectional. In fact a type of holographic wave. Further, The distance between the peaks and troughs of the wave, are , Which we could say interprets at X megahertz. For the guy in the spaceship from his point of view travelling at the speed he is, because he is intercepting the wave a lot faster his reading of time between the peaks and crests of the wave, makes the wave a lot shorter, say Y megahertz which seems counter intuitive, as its our time relative to him which is speeding up and to us he is slowing down. But from his point of observation the Universe has speeded up, Like it did when he was on the event horizon of the black hole. Which straightens things out again as the faster he goes the more the Universe is speeded up.
We could go further and suggest that the Universe, is a standing wave matrix, and that the observers speed through the wave dictates the personal space time reality. As waves can pass through each other, and remain unaffected, the multiverse theory holds water. Or something like that, If in fact the Universe in reality is primarily a stable static event. Then our interpretation of matter is just a model that works as a thought form, where the reality its just an interpretation of the waveform in which we find ourselves.
So in this model the only thing that could alter time , would be the same frequency which would cancels each other out. Which might be that which occurs in time slip experiences. Which could also cause a lot of other anomalous events which on the surface make no sense.
edit on 5-12-2014
by anonentity because: (no reason given)
edit on 5-12-2014 by anonentity because: (no reason given)
a reply to: swanne
Changing the past creates an alternate parallel timeline that doesn't affect the original timeline. In the original timeline, the humanity will still be doomed even after they sent the message.
What you posted is an interesting way to look at this.
However, this doesn't address the real time travel, i.e a person or an object being transported into the past. This carries other difficulties, such as conservation of matter and the law of causality. For example, imagine a situation where a person from the future pops up in front of you in the present. Where did the matter that composes his body come from? What happens to all the air molecules in the volume of space where his body appears?
Changing the past creates an alternate parallel timeline that doesn't affect the original timeline. In the original timeline, the humanity will still be doomed even after they sent the message.
What you posted is an interesting way to look at this.
However, this doesn't address the real time travel, i.e a person or an object being transported into the past. This carries other difficulties, such as conservation of matter and the law of causality. For example, imagine a situation where a person from the future pops up in front of you in the present. Where did the matter that composes his body come from? What happens to all the air molecules in the volume of space where his body appears?
originally posted by: wildespace
Changing the past creates an alternate parallel timeline that doesn't affect the original timeline. In the original timeline, the humanity will still be doomed even after they sent the message.
Exactly
This carries other difficulties, such as conservation of matter and the law of causality.
The First Law of Thermodynamics was written for systems that move linearly forwards in Time - it may not apply for systems that do not.
It matters not if the cause is in the effect's future or past - Causality is conserved as long as the effect is caused by the cause. Recent experiment has proven this.
For example, imagine a situation where a person from the future pops up in front of you in the present. Where did the matter that composes his body come from? What happens to all the air molecules in the volume of space where his body appears?
The time traveler needs a machine to get to the past. Since he is coming at the target from the future, I would speculate that from the target's perspective, it will seem as if the ship will start from a point (the tip of the ship's nozzle as it contacts the target's 3D space frame) and quickly expand to full size (when all of the ship has emerged from the future and unto the target's frame).
As a sidenote: we know that reaching back into the past is possible:
Quantum Entanglement Can Reach into the Past
edit on 6-12-2014 by swanne because: (no reason given)