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If Intelligent Life Exsists In Our Galaxy Then........

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posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:15 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift
So if you're right, and the universe is just crawling with all kinds of intelligent life, you need to come up with all kinds of non-mathematical reasons to explain why we can't just look up into the sky and see evidence of them.


That's actually quite easy.

They choose not to utilize things like Von Neumann machines.

The use of such things is not inevitable you know.

Harte




posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: Blue Shift

the irony is mathematics, is just a way for us to cope with reality.

We spit an atom, indeed yet we do not understand why it does what it does... We just know how to do it..

Just imagine it took us about 5-6 years to split an atom, we have not done anything that magical since

On the atomic scale.

Why is that?

We should be in space by now not in orbit. We will never learn how to survive or travel in space unless we are in space...

I do not think we will make it off this planet...

It just takes one more world war to put us back into the dark ages...

Then we will start over again...



posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:31 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
That's actually quite easy. They choose not to utilize things like Von Neumann machines.
The use of such things is not inevitable you know.

But that's not mathematical. It's sociological. It's just a completely unfounded guess about a behavioral condition that might lead to some intelligent alien species not spreading through space. Even if it were true about the majority of intelligent aliens, when you're talking about potentially billions of them, even a small percentage of them will still decide that Von Neumann machines are the way to go, and we're back to them being obvious again.

More aliens = more possibilities for evidence of their existence = higher probability of them being obvious.

edit on 14-11-2014 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:40 PM
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originally posted by: Bicent76
I do not think we will make it off this planet...
It just takes one more world war to put us back into the dark ages...
Then we will start over again...

I tend to think you're right about humanity never leaving this planet, at least not in any large numbers. But I don't think it's because we're going to screw up in some way. I think it will be because we are awesome, successful survivors and wonderfully clever. So clever that we'll manipulate our own genetics to the point of no longer being exactly human (except for maybe a few sentimental old folks), we'll lose ourselves in our delightful and easily accessible virtual worlds, and we'll create machines that are far more intelligent and durable and ambitious than we will ever be, and they'll inhabit the galaxy in our stead -- partly for the resources to keep expanding, partly because we will program into them a drive to perpetuate themselves, along with a sense of wonder and adventure.



posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:48 PM
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a reply to: Blue Shift

Not when we live within the laws of our electrical universe.

I see no change anytime soon..

We are mastering electronics and electricity, thinking we are developing technology...

If we can master fusion, then perhaps yet once again mankind's primitive thinking process will prevent us from achieving anything for the better good..

The irony for mankind in my opinion is, the only we can survive as a species is to do something together without gain...That is something man cannot do...

We will wait til it is something for us to GAIN..

We are incapable to do something or invest in something to develop something for the greater good for our species unless we gain something.

As I said if we were really that smart we would be in space now, searching for habitable planets and life...




edit on b502014-11-14T23:50:50-06:00America/Chicago113076 by Bicent76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 14 2014 @ 11:59 PM
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not to mention it is virtually impossible to educate homo sapiens in the 21st century now as it is..

If we cannot stimulate trauma in our psyche to get the mind of man to wonder again what he is looking at, we will not break thru anything any time soon..



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 12:05 AM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Harte
That's actually quite easy. They choose not to utilize things like Von Neumann machines.
The use of such things is not inevitable you know.

But that's not mathematical. It's sociological. It's just a completely unfounded guess about a behavioral condition that might lead to some intelligent alien species not spreading through space. Even if it were true about the majority of intelligent aliens, when you're talking about potentially billions of them, even a small percentage of them will still decide that Von Neumann machines are the way to go, and we're back to them being obvious again.

More aliens = more possibilities for evidence of their existence = higher probability of them being obvious.

You have to posit a very large number of intelligent advanced alien societies to rely on the Fermi Paradox to actually be paradoxical, as you say.

Whatever the case, however, the choice has to be made to explore the galaxy in that way and such a choice is always going to be sociological in nature. So, the sociological angle is still unavoidable.

Harte



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 04:40 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
You have to posit a very large number of intelligent advanced alien societies to rely on the Fermi Paradox to actually be paradoxical, as you say.

That's exactly my point. There are quite a few people who are so enthusiastic about the existence of alien intelligences that they are absolutely convinced that there are BILLIONS of them out there. They see the size of the universe as the primary factor in somehow creating or allowing all these civilizations to develop, when the truth is since we don't know how life forms in the first place, we don't know if the sheer number of available planets has anything to do with it.

I personally think that the odds of an alien species developing such that they are similar to us to be recognized and understandable to us are extremely low, to the point of being practically impossible. And by "practical" I mean that if an alien species like us exists in a galaxy 100 million light years away, and we will never find them or be able to communicate with them, they practically don't exist.

And as I've said before, after considering this stuff for a long time, my thoughts these days are that aliens might exist in some form, but we're like ants in their backyard. We're just too small and short-lived and dumb to understand the big picture as it exists in multiple dimensions of cognition as well as space. So, again, on a practical level, they don't exist to us, and that's all that matters. We're not going to learn anything from hypothetical aliens.



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift
I personally think that the odds of an alien species developing such that they are similar to us to be recognized and understandable to us are extremely low, to the point of being practically impossible. And by "practical" I mean that if an alien species like us exists in a galaxy 100 million light years away, and we will never find them or be able to communicate with them, they practically don't exist.


I myself am torn, both views could be correct:

A) An alien species could develop in such a way that they're so extremely different from us, we would not even be able to recognize it or understand it. It could have developed so "far out there" we cannot even fathom how they function.

or

B) What happened HERE must also have happened elsewhere. Life evolved HERE, there is no logical reason why it shouldn't have evolved in a similar way elsewhere, certain "differences" of course taken into consideration.

Some example for this...various forms of aliens like in the movies (Star Trek, Star Wars etc.), but many of them are humanoid and differ only in certain attributes.

Here the question of course...if we assume aliens/humanoids etc. exist on other planets, would they also develop similar ways of thinking? Would they develop philosophy? Would they develop science? Would they develop religion? Would they develop language?

Would, on another planet where many other "animals" exist and then again only one "dominant" species, like here, which is capable of science, space travel, philosophy etc.? Or could there be a planet with a number of "dominant" species? Of course, would there be planets where there are only animals but no "higher" intelligent species? (Like the classic planet where there is only cats, and of course cats are not exactly masters when it comes to space travel etc...: ) Many interesting questions.

I personally TEND to say that B) is more likely since I think if it happened here it must also happen elsewhere, with SOME variations of course.



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 05:06 PM
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>>
when the truth is since we don't know how life forms in the first place, we don't know if the sheer number of available planets has anything to do with it.
>>

I give you a box with hundreds, no, thousands of tiny balls.

You grab into the box, pick one ball.

You put it in your mouth and find it's sweet, it's candy.

Common sense/reason would say you did NOT pick the ONLY candy ball from a box of thousands of balls made of something else, say rock. (Although a priest might tell you so : )
Common sense should tell you chances are high there are more in there, when you grab into the box next time it's *reasonable* to assume you'll get another candy. A valid THEORY (although of course not proven) would also be that possibly ALL balls in the box are made from candy.

The most far-off theory would be that there was only one ball made from candy, the one you picked. Funny thing, if we take this analogy, some people seriously believe that.
edit on 11/15/2014 by NoRulesAllowed because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 10:24 PM
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originally posted by: Bicent76

As I said if we were really that smart we would be in space now, searching for habitable planets and life...





Um, we are.



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 10:55 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

no we are not..

prob3s are not us...



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 11:47 PM
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originally posted by: Bicent76
a reply to: JadeStar

no we are not..

prob3s are not us...



They most certainly are us. They are our mechanical descendants and represent us.

They are an extension of our eyes, ears, nose, etc.

It still takes HUMAN brains to interpret the data they gather.

Newsflash: That's us looking for other habitable planets and life.

The probes did not build themselves or interpret their own data. They still need our help. They are advanced but not that advanced....yet.

By the way, some of this is not even done with probes but telescopes on the ground. If that's not us then who is it?

When we do actually visit a habitable planet, it is almost certainly going to be well after it was discovered by telescopes and probes. Star Trek was great sci-fi but we've already eclipsed it in some ways with plans for telescopes which could detect life on a distant world without us building the Starship Enterprise.

That was almost unimaginable in the 1960s when sci fi writers though humans would have to physically visit a planet to detect or observe life on it.
edit on 15-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2014 @ 11:52 PM
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a reply to: AnuTyr

You saw an alien...? Please share....



posted on Nov, 16 2014 @ 07:45 PM
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The more we learn about the universe through finer direct observations, the higher the odds of intelligent life becomes and the closer the average projected distance between our civilization and our nearest neighbors.

The Drake equation is solid, but because so many of the variables require educated guesses, we can't use it to come up to a commonly agreed on result for the equation. Just finding extrasolar planets has allowed us to fine tune an important set of variables. As our planet detection capabilities become more fine, the numbers will continue to improve. We have technology coming in the foreseeable future that will not only increase our ability to detect smaller worlds, but also to detect the chemical composition of the atmospheres of some of those worlds.

We do still lack scientifically verified and publicly acknowledged proof of intelligent species among the stars, so some of the most important variables in the equation are left entirely to guesses that range from zero to many instances of extraterrestrial intelligence in the universe.

If we can prove that life, in any form, exists or existed elsewhere in our solar system, the numbers will shift much further in favor of commonality of life. That's why NASA and other governmental space agencies have been slow and methodical in the study of Mars for signs of present or past life. The evidence that Mars could have supported life continues to build, preparing humanity for the likely possibility that in this century we will be able to declare that life in fact does or did exist on Mars and maybe even elsewhere in our solar system.

Back to detection of intelligent species in our Galaxy, we need to remember that the Drake Equation does NOT seek to calculate how many intelligent species there are, but how many detectable intelligent species there are.

One key variable is the time period during which the typical technological civilization is detectable by our current technology. As our tech improves, the odds at detection improve and the numbers shift. However, part of the question of detectability relies on what type of detectible signals or signatures a civilization might give off. We have spent most of our efforts on searching for Radio signals of intelligent origin, but as we ourselves transition to communications technologies with little or no signature detectable from other star systems, it should be clear that the period of detectability of intelligent civilizations may only provide a very brief window. There may only be a century or two in which a civilization of thousands or millions of years, not actively looking to be detected, will be detectible by technology we possess or hope to possess over the course of the next century or more.

We are at a point in our own development where we are likely most detectible by others, while our ability to detect more advanced civilizations is virtually nil. That we have yet to prove detection does nothing to lessen the odds of life "out there". In fact, our primitive level of technology in a galaxy that is likely home to civilizations millions of years more advanced greatly increases the odds that we could be being visited by other civilizations while remaining completely ignorant to even a single other intelligent civilization.

In this case, absence of evidence is clearly not evidence of absence. What we know we don't, and currently can't, know about our galaxy exponentially exceeds what we've hoped or expected to discover, but haven't.



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: dougie6665
flyandi,

You are pretty negative about coming here..


Not at all and it seems you mostly agree with me anyway .. interesting why you think I am negative?! :-)

If you read through my statement that it would be pretty clear that we are the one who have to make the first step. Sure enough at one point of our race we might become interstellar .. through Generation ships or other methods - who knows what the future holds or what challenges we encounter .. The whole AI topic is very interesting and might be the solution to become interstellar.

But back to the topic: You seem to agree that interstellar travel is extremely difficult and for any advance race it will be the same .. it will take them X amount of energy to get here and if they invest this energy they will be are reason why they do the journey. Just to make contact might be a bit to simple .. they will study us the same way we study the Universe, they want answers to certain question they have and they might involve certain things we as a race dislike - that's a natural thing.

I agree with you completely that nobody has visited us in recent times .. maybe millions of years ago. Some governments in this world might have evidence in their hands - who knows but considering how fast evidence is destroyed over time (Look how fast the Desert cities in SoCal vanished - less then 30 years and you don't see a stone of evidence) - I highly doubt that but let's keep a open mind.

I firmly believe that humanities future is within the stars .. we need to get off this rock to broaden our horizon. We had an awesome start in the 70s and have done amazing things until now.. In the next couple years we will see more and more preparations for a real Mars mission - the next big goal. Next month on December 4th the Orion will fly for the first time into space - unmanned - but it's the first step for the next generation space ship. Commercial space ventures will take over government space ventures and some of our SciFi fantasies will become reality.. I wish I could see that...



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 09:49 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

no they are NOT us physically in space..

As I said WE should be in space...

Yet I will agree to disagree and blame my laziness in grammar and it being late at night and the two dimensional chalkboard I am writing on..
edit on b502014-11-17T21:50:46-06:00America/Chicago113076 by Bicent76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2014 @ 09:54 PM
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If we are any indication of intelligent life and the measure thereof, than we are surely in trouble. Still, the fact that we exist is a proof of sorts that life is literally all around us...........splattered throughout the entire universes.




True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us.

Socrates




edit on 17-11-2014 by Egyptia because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2014 @ 05:31 AM
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If we want to discuss ways a species could engage in interstellar colonization even if science never finds a way to travel at effective speeds higher than a fraction of the speed of light, I have my own favorite.

We can already imagine and accept the eventuality of a number of technologies that would combine for colonization. Artificial Intelligence; compact, hyper massive data storage; self replicating nano tech; virtual reality; artificial wombs; teleportation of energy and data via quantum entanglement; creation of life artificially from raw building blocks and digitally stored and reconstituted DNA.

The AI runs the mission. The probe is relatively small. The probe contains the AI, a starter colony of nanobots capable of assembling larger and more complex self replication machines that can do the same. The mission contains the ability to store and replicate the DNA of thousands, or eventually millions, of members of the parent species and all the stored knowledge of the civilization. Optionally, as it's looking more and more like the idea that quantum entanglement can not allow instant communication over infinite distance was just bunk, active control of such a mission might be possible.

Send the probe to the nearest colonization candidate. The initial stages on revival are the use of self replicating nano-bots to begin the chain reaction of self replication that creates all the necessary machinery for step two, including the creation of full sized, AI controlled robots/androids.

Phase two builds a suitable habitat for colonists, surveys the world, calculates favorable genetic alterations to improve compatibility of the parent species with the new environment. Phase two might even be extensive if any form of terraforming is necessary.

Phase three builds viable embryos based on the DNA of the parent species, with environment specific enhancements and brings them to term in artificial wombs. Through a combination of prebuilt androids and virtual reality, these colonist born to the new host planet are raised into an approximation of the home culture and imbued with that culture's body of knowledge.

Phase four is the actual colonization of the world by ongoing generations of the new offshoot of the parent species.

This tech is hundreds or thousands of years in our future, but entirely viable with achievable advances.

The initial probes can be small, reducing the energy cost of transit. As there are no living colonists traveling anywhere, time span of transit is largely meaningless. That nothing irreplaceable is sent on a probe means that strategies of sending large numbers of colonization probes to provide redundancy vs. failure are viable. The DNA, knowledge and culture of the parent species propagate and can be fine tuned to the new environment starting with the first generation of colonist, greatly speeding and aiding the evolution of the colonist gene pool for greatest adaptability with the new environment.

One thing I like about this, in addition to overcoming many obstacles to colonization over vast distances, is that it offers a viable explanation for a galaxy where many different species in different star systems look similar, while having their own identifying characteristics.

You can even imagine that some colonies might have lost their origin story to the sands of time due to various disasters, existing as a child species to a parent they have no knowledge of.

Who needs generation ships or warp drives if you can artificially reconstitute your species on another world using AI and self replicating machines capable of biologically engineering colonists from stored DNA?

The strategy may not feel compelling for a very self centered species that wants to imagine people living here today traveling to another world to start anew. However, it does propagate DNA, Knowledge and Culture, which apart from the possibility of a spiritual afterlife including reincarnation and the evolution of the soul, is really what our lives are all about. Survival of the species and the hope that there is some ultimate point to our ongoing evolution.
edit on 18-11-2014 by Totemic because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 18 2014 @ 05:54 AM
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originally posted by: Totemic
If we want to discuss ways a species could engage in interstellar colonization even if science never finds a way to travel at effective speeds higher than a fraction of the speed of light, I have my own favorite.

We can already imagine and accept the eventuality of a number of technologies that would combine for colonization. Artificial Intelligence; compact, hyper massive data storage; self replicating nano tech; virtual reality; artificial wombs; teleportation of energy and data via quantum entanglement; creation of life artificially from raw building blocks and digitally stored and reconstituted DNA.

The AI runs the mission. The probe is relatively small. The probe contains the AI, a starter colony of nanobots capable of assembling larger and more complex self replication machines that can do the same. The mission contains the ability to store and replicate the DNA of thousands, or eventually millions, of members of the parent species and all the stored knowledge of the civilization. Optionally, as it's looking more and more like the idea that quantum entanglement can not allow instant communication over infinite distance was just bunk, active control of such a mission might be possible.

Send the probe to the nearest colonization candidate. The initial stages on revival are the use of self replicating nano-bots to begin the chain reaction of self replication that creates all the necessary machinery for step two, including the creation of full sized, AI controlled robots/androids.

Phase two builds a suitable habitat for colonists, surveys the world, calculates favorable genetic alterations to improve compatibility of the parent species with the new environment. Phase two might even be extensive if any form of terraforming is necessary.

Phase three builds viable embryos based on the DNA of the parent species, with environment specific enhancements and brings them to term in artificial wombs. Through a combination of prebuilt androids and virtual reality, these colonist born to the new host planet are raised into an approximation of the home culture and imbued with that culture's body of knowledge.

Phase four is the actual colonization of the world by ongoing generations of the new offshoot of the parent species.

This tech is hundreds or thousands of years in our future, but entirely viable with achievable advances.

The initial probes can be small, reducing the energy cost of transit. As there are no living colonists traveling anywhere, time span of transit is largely meaningless. That nothing irreplaceable is sent on a probe means that strategies of sending large numbers of colonization probes to provide redundancy vs. failure are viable. The DNA, knowledge and culture of the parent species propagate and can be fine tuned to the new environment starting with the first generation of colonist, greatly speeding and aiding the evolution of the colonist gene pool for greatest adaptability with the new environment.

One thing I like about this, in addition to overcoming many obstacles to colonization over vast distances, is that it offers a viable explanation for a galaxy where many different species in different star systems look similar, while having their own identifying characteristics.

You can even imagine that some colonies might have lost their origin story to the sands of time due to various disasters, existing as a child species to a parent they have no knowledge of.

Who needs generation ships or warp drives if you can artificially reconstitute your species on another world using AI and self replicating machines capable of biologically engineering colonists from stored DNA?

The strategy may not feel compelling for a very self centered species that wants to imagine people living here today traveling to another world to start anew. However, it does propagate DNA, Knowledge and Culture, which apart from the possibility of a spiritual afterlife including reincarnation and the evolution of the soul, is really what our lives are all about. Survival of the species and the hope that there is some ultimate point to our ongoing evolution.


Extremely intriguing ideas.

I'm almost convinced this has been going on for a long time already & we are just an unlucky propagation of the Human Virus sent out amongst the stars.
Or maybe humans are used as dumb slave animals throughout the multiverse & they use earth like worlds in the armpits of galaxies to grow us into large communities of manual labor monkeys.

I don't care where the spaceship takes me so long as it's away from here.



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