UK and the EU, do you want in or out?

a reply to: eletheia

Answer the question, please. Or don't you already kind of did. Must be horrible being you.

OUT 100% we were conned into this by TRAITORS who got big bank accounts in Switzerland for selling their country out immigration has been a joke .

Stuff Europe we will survive

a reply to: idmonster

Actually, they do have other policies but those who oppose them are willfully ignorant of the fact when they talk smack about them

Good afternoon Sir, I would be interested on your opinions on this thread I started earlier( It's my day off )

New study shows Eastern european imigrants in the UK put more in than they take out.


a reply to: stumason

It likely all matters F all anyway.

The USA will continue going down hill culminating in a Depression that makes the Great depression look like a little economic correction and make all the hard work of the British people irrelevant as it will take us down with it along with Canada/Australia/New Zealand/The entire EU/ Japan/South Korea and China.

Leave EU or stay or sign our sovereignty over to North Korea

We are all f...ed anyway!

a reply to: nonspecific
Those stats could be argued either way and spun in all sorts of ways depending on the variables.
That aside, I will be voting on my own anecdotal evidence, seeing wages in construction driven down by Polish workers doing £45 days for a job that would have commanded much more a decade ago. Seeing my local Primary schools doubling in size and building new classrooms on former playgrounds, and needing translators for EU nationals kids. Seeing enclaves of unskilled immigrant workers and benefit claimants making zero effort to integrate with the local community.

Yep, I've wanted out of free movement of people in the UK from the EU for a few years now, and it has nothing to do with any published statistics, and everything to do with what I personally witness. How anyone can say that half a million people working unskilled jobs in the UK does not create a difficult competitive environment for our own unskilled workers is beyond me, but hey, none of that matters really. If we get the vote I shall cast mine for my own reasons and I think our little island needs to be able to put restrictions on people who come here to work.
If you wish unrestrained movement of unskilled folk to the UK then you will of course be able to vote for it...if we get a referendum.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: bastion

I don't particularly want to get involved in the pro's and con's in any sort of depth at present. I think that its far more important to force the major parties into giving a firm date on a Yes / No referendum - preferably as soon as possible.
Once that is set in stone then we can enter into a reasoned debate allowing all sides to state their respective points of view etc.

But I've got to respond to some of the 'benefits' you list in favour of remaining in the EU.

- Human Rights Act that protects the rights and freedoms all the main parties want to remove.

The Human Rights Act that protects terrorists puts the rights of criminals before those of their victims?

---That's a media myth, the human rights act gives the right to life, equality, maximum working hours, clean water and food, privacy, marriage, laws against torture and illegal imprisonment, the righ to a fair trial and many more that allow us some form of freedom.

Which human rights do the main parties want to remove?

---- this government has made it clear it has no intention of equality, caring about the average worker, privacy, the right to a fair trial - I'm under no illusion other parties would do the same as they're alobbied by the same people.

- Trillions we receive in aid....

What 'aid' do we get from the EU?

We recieve billions in environmental disaster clean ups (see recent floods) - there' currently £9.2Bn Uk only contracts up for grabs to improve impoverished areas in the UK and many more.

and trade (roughly £200Bn, and £1 trillion from FDI alone)......

Do you honestly believe that trade with the EU will stop if we come out of the EU?

------Not stop completely but be massively reduced due to the rigamarole of work visas and the like (plus we're an isaldn it's easier for countries to work with neighbors).

..... plus the several billion the economy gains from migrant workers.

How exactly does the economy gain 'several billions' from migrant workers who keep wages low and over burden our benefit and health services?

-----Again that's a myth read the UCL study - Imigrants generate £20Bn to the economy after subtracting, health and welfare costs and the strain put on local services. - However this issue does need to be closely monitored and ideally improved.

- Nations are outdated ideas - the sooner we see us as all the same, the better.

Imagine all the people.
Nice thought.....but we are a million miles away from that and we need to deal in the realities of today.

- We're a tiny insignificant nation -

No, we aren't.
Look at the history books.
Look at how we still punch well above our weight on the world stage.
We DO have influence.

....The empire has crumbled, we live of the back of the US and EU, without them we are nothing.

....being part of an £11 trillion economy made of half a billion people gives us far more influence in world affairs and ensuring the future of the country

Nonsense.
Being outside the EU would allow us to pursue policies and strategies that put UK interests first at ALL times and not just when Brussels allows us.

At present if UK interests are contrary to the EU's - as happens quite frequently - we are simply out voted and have their dictates imposed upon us - that is simply wrong.

----Agreed on that point

- 1.6m Uk citizens live in the EU and 3.5m jobs depend on being a member - withdrawing would see at least 5m instantly unemployed and destroy the economy.

5million?
Where did you get this figure from?
--3.5m + 1.6m = 5m

How do 3.5million jobs depend on being a member'?

-see recent studies and reports ' 3.5m (10%) of jobs in the UK are directly dependent on the EU, and would be lost should we pull out'

robertckirk.wordpress.com...

- Access to free healthcare and pensions anywhere in the EU

We have that in the UK already, well before becoming a member of the EU.

Personally I think some sort of European Union would be possible - just not this overpowering, dictatorial, centralised and corrupt version we have at present.

---Couldn't agree more, the way it's structured and funded is the worst aspects of parliament and just a waste of billions that could be put to good use.

Likewise I'm not interested in a lengthy debate, everyone's entitled to their opinion democracy - I just want ed to answer your questions.

a reply to: nonspecific

A simplistic study and, to be honest, entirely predictable given the current political situation.

What it doesn't take into account is the effect immigration has on housing, schooling, local services from councils or their impact on the NHS. It also fails to look at the longer term picture of looking after them as they age. Merely saying they "contribute more in taxes than they take in benefits" is not remotely looking at the whole picture and smacks of a political motivation behind this "study".

a reply to: stumason
It also does not take into account the wages sent back to buy the dirt cheap homes in Eastern Europe, money lost to the UK economy.
Pretty much every unskilled or semi-skilled UK worker will spend their money in the local or UK economy. I know which situation I prefer for this country.

a reply to: grainofsand

Come on, don't hesitate! Exit! Get lost! Kssssh!

Close your borders. Do your own dirty work for a change instead of leaving it to the continentals for peanuts. Stop consuming these foul goods from the continent: you don't need Vauxhall, Peugeot, BMW, Ferrari and Alpha Romeo.
Us continentals don't need Guinness and you don't need Heineken. We don't need Marmite and you don't need KLM. We don't need Delta airlines, we have KLM, thank you. Exit! Get lost!

Stop the flood of highly skilled British businessmen whom take seats in the boards of our companies: we'd rather see that money go to a Dutchman, competent or not. Let's close the chunnel too, useless thing, as it makes it waaaay to easy for continentals to spent their money in the UK. Consider closing your air fields too - and stop the flood of puking, shouting and cursing lower class Brits that have fun in our cities - fun that we'll have to clean up after them. After all, who'd like to leave Britain anyway - you have no need for our money, the British market is big enough as it is! Go! Woooo! Shhhh!

Let's return the British universities that are now infested with continental teachers, Nobel prize winners and students of the continent too back to the Brits. Brits don't need foreigners to teach them, the are clearly well educated already, given the well-balanced postings in here. Come on, bugger off!

Arrogant twats. 50% of investment to the UK comes from other EU member states. It is worth £351 billion a year. Over 40% of UK exports go to the EU and they are tariff-free. Yeah, who needs Europe.

Go! UKIP should be in charge there! DO IT FOR GAWD SAKES!

a reply to: ForteanOrg

And you're entire post is rendered moot once you see that "UKIP" actually promote free trade and immigration for skills that are required, just not the open doors immigration which sees an entire nations worth of people added to our country over a decade (an average net migration of 200,000 a year over 10 years....). I suppose you Dutch would be happy to see your population increase by over 2 million (over an above normal population growth) in a single decade?

Also, if the UK became a member of the EFTA - as it was before joining the EEC - none of the trade problems you envisaged would be an issue.

a reply to: stumason

Free is free. Either you are part of a free market or you are not. Sure enough businessman in Holland would like to pass a Dutch Law that says that I can sell to Brits as much as I want, but aren't allowed to buy from them. That is not freedom.

Likewise you should not be allowed to determine whom you need or not and neither should we, continentals. It's simple: free exchange of people and goods within the Union. We welcome your silly arses too over in our country, don't we? Heck, I recently visited a congress and had to endure being taught by a Brit! Can you imagine that: a bloody Brit, teachin me, on Dutch soil! The arrogant twit did not even speak Dutch! As if we don't have any teachers ourselves (whom do speak Dutch)...

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Er no, you can be part of the "free market" and not be part of the Union, several countries do this. In fact, pretty soon, the USA will have free trade with the EU, but that doesn't mean we can all flood the states unless we fill a particular skill gap.

You seem to be confusing trade with immigration when they are two entirely separate issues. One can be dealt with via the EFTA and the other can be dealt with by not being in the Union. We were never asked to be in a "Union", when we last voted we were asked to be part of the "Common Market" which was, back then, simply a free trade bloc. At least you Dutch got a vote on the EU constitution, we didn't, we just got lumped in with it's bastard son, the Lisbon Treaty, which we also got no vote over.

a reply to: ForteanOrg


Likewise we have primary schools where in some classes there are no

English speakers and five different languages spoken.

a reply to: eletheia

Linguistically well educated children then! I hope Dutch is one of the languages taught...

On a more serious note: I'm not particularly fond of "The European Superstate" either. Anarchists like me feel we should decentralize power whenever possible -and Europe is not really good at that. That being said: if you want a free market, you'll need rules that all subscribe to. And local governments aren't very good at allowing other countries their fair share. So it makes sense that part of the rules (trade, commerce, education, health) are set by an European Governement that has the power to say to a country "Sorry, but this is over your head". But they should not meddle with all the details, leave that to local government. So, a small, efficient EU that limits itself to doing just what is needed and no more - I'm in favour,

So, though I agree that we don't need a superstate (I'm even hesitant when it comes to regular states..) - I still feel the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I want my country to be a critical but loyal member of the union.

A final word of warning: don't think that your individual or collective problems will be solved by "joining" or "leaving" the union. The old Victorian UK is long dead. England is not a superpower anymore. China is. If we want to compete with them, we need the Union.

a reply to: ForteanOrg


I spent all my working life in sales, and discovered there are no

barriers, if you have the right product at the right quality and price.

Products that were normally only sold in haberdashers, were introduced

to chemists and supermarkets and corner shops. When the corner shops

started to demise, it was necessary to get them listed with mega stores.

And although I am no longer in business, I notice that many of the

supermarkets are now diversifying and opening smaller outlets and going

into service station outlets.

Companies change stratergies as markets change all the time and only

the fit survive. It is unnecessary to be held back by the iron hand of what

can only be viewed as a dictatorship.

Bottom line quality, cost and the right product .... Cadburys, Jaguar, Kraft

Kimberly Clark, Ford, Uggs, John Wests, Rolex, Nissan, Michael Kors,

Grants Whiskey, Famous Grouse, Raleigh, Swatch, Laura Ashley, Barbours,

French Connection to name but a few I could go on but I've got things to

do people to see.

a reply to: grainofsand

OUT and the quicker the better

a reply to: ForteanOrg

See, if the EU was more accountable and Democratic, I would probably be in favour of more Union, but at the moment we have unelected bureaucrats (often failed politicians given cushy jobs by their mates) sitting in their ivory tower, sending diktats down to the elected Governments to rubber stamp, often without the knowledge of the citizens until it happens. Some 75% of our laws come from Europe now and most seem to be nothing more than niggly, petty legislation.

Not to mention the extraordinary waste that goes on, which is why the UK is especially vexed at the latest "demand" for another £2 Billion from the EU. France gets huge sums of money so it's farmers can sit on their arses, France also has it's pride protected by having the Parliament move to Strasbourg from Brussels every could of weeks just so they can feel important.

Not to mention that the implementation of the rules seem to be one sided, with the UK being told to end state ownership of utilities which were then promptly bought up by French and German State owned firms!

And (after we got "permission" from the EU - WTF?) now we have the Austrians threatening us with legal action over our plans to build new power stations!!!!

I could go on, but it's not just about "immigration" for us in the UK, it's been a long time coming with all the BS that we've had to put up with.

a reply to: stumason

Yes the 6 months in Strasbourg then Brussels is crazy, so is the fact that MEP's can claim money for signing in even if it's only for 5 minutes iirc 150 euro and if they have been to a meeting iirc 300 euro nice work if you can get it!!!

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ForteanOrgI could go on, but it's not just about "immigration" for us in the UK, it's been a long time coming with all the BS that we've had to put up with.

Part of what you're saying agrees with me: the bureaucracy, the totally absurd Strasbourg / Brussels travelling circus (they will stop that soon, though) and the undemocratic way the members of parliament are chosen. Very filthy bathwater - but don't throw out the child with it.

Also, please remember it was the BRITISH prime-minister (Heath) that said "yes". He was not forced, nor did he do it on impulse. See this snippet from the BBC newssite:

Membership applications by the UK to join the EEC were refused in 1963 and 1967 because the French President of the time Charles de Gaulle doubted the UK's political will. It is understood, however, his real fear was that English would suddenly become the common language of the community.

.. and to be honest, old De Gaulle was right, as English now is the common language of the community...