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Who Will Confirm 'First Contact' - Us or Them?

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posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 07:49 PM
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Habitable Zone seems to imply lifeforms like humans. Other intelligent life could take many other forms.




posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 08:16 PM
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There won't be first contact nor "disclosure", -just like- certain info on like, JFK and 9-11 will never see the light of day. Through different info I've learned (via the usual mundane sources through which we all come upon, etc,) my own common sense, life experiences, the gut, and such I had formulated a conclusion, I guess someone would say belief, that some of these "ufo aliens" are part of the Powers That Be. They enjoy their insulation, security, power, the resulting freedom within secrecy as they choose. Decisions over "the 99%".

This makes thee most sense to me.

Regardless of whether the Others are interdimensionals, extraterrestrial, subterranean, the fallen 1/3rd host, and or all of the above.
If they are humanoid, (humanoid-like..)
edit on 22-11-2014 by misschareesee2 because: .



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 10:43 PM
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originally posted by: roadgravel
Habitable Zone seems to imply lifeforms like humans. Other intelligent life could take many other forms.


Sure it could but there are some restrictions based on chemistry and physics.

Above a certain temperature complex chemical bonds break down. Without complex chemical bonds life can not exists.

Below a certain temperature, chemical reactions become very, very slow. At such temperatures life probably can not exist.

Granted, this range is far wider than that of the Habitable Zone but it still is a limiting factor.

Life cannot exist on the surface of a star for example.

edit on 22-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 10:46 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar
You will acknowledge that the "habital zone" involves far more variables that TSI (S for stellar, not Solar) and orbital radius?
Europa is far beyond the habitable zone of Sol, yet....

edit on 11/22/2014 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 10:48 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: JadeStar
You will acknowledge that the "habital zone" involves far more variables that TSI and orbital radius?
Europa is far beyond the habitable zone of Sol, yet....



Yes exactly.

In the case of icy moons like Europa or Enceladus, their Habitable Zone is not based on TSI and orbital radius alone but tidal heating from Jupiter, Saturn or planets like them.

So there is not one Habitable Zone concept there are actually several.

One can imagine a moon of a gas giant exoplanet just beyond the snow line (the "too cold" line on most Habitable Zone diagrams) which is heated both from the star and tidal heating from the gas giant it orbits which might lead to a scene like this one:


edit on 22-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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So there is not one Habitable Zone concept there are actually several.
a reply to: JadeStar

And to use a local colloquialism; "Dat's the tricky part, brah."

When are we going to be able to find moons around exo-planets? They are there of course but...



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 11:11 PM
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originally posted by: Phage



So there is not one Habitable Zone concept there are actually several.
a reply to: JadeStar

And to use a local colloquialism; "Dat's the tricky part, brah."

When are we going to be able to find moons around exo-planets? They are there of course but...


Oh, yeah 'dat's da tricky part' indeed and a great question.

Right now there are several searches for exomoons.

One of them is a search based at Harvard University using Kepler data called HEK (Hunt for Exomoons with Kepler).

So far they have not found an exomoon but they have successfully demonstrated that they have the ability to find one with a moon to planet radii ratio similar to that of the Moon/Earth system and have ruled out a moon bigger than 0.5 Earth Radii around Kepler 22b. (620 light years away)

A team from University of Rochester found the first ring system around an exoplanet circling the star 420 light years away) and possibly the first exomoon in 2012. In our solar system, where there are rings, there also lay moons.

And some astronomers in Russia think they may have detected an exomoon around the planet WASP-12b (871 light years away) by analysing the lightcurve of the star. This could also be due to activity on the star so this detection is inconclusive and need of followup.

So if I were to guess I would guess we will find the first exomoon probably with TESS in the 2017-2020 time frame if one isn't already lurking in Kepler data.

I say that because TESS will be looking for planets using the same technique as Kepler but it will do a whole sky search for nearby exoplanets (and potential moons around them). TESS is like Kepler for our backyard and stellar neighborhood.

Because these stars and their planets and moons will be closer the light curves we get back will be more detailed and less noisy than those of Kepler. They may also be able to be studied directly with the James Webb Telescope indirectly and imaged with a future instrument.
edit on 22-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2014 @ 11:14 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar
Rings! I hadn't seen that before. Bitchin!



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 12:22 AM
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I believe they confirmed the contact quite a long time ago, many religious beliefs have some believable indications of extra terrestrial visitation. Many may say that some passages in religious text are simply flights of fancy, oh unless it happens to be their own religion - smirk. This is simply an assumption, not a proof, they are simply assuming that since some parts of religious texts may not have a physical reality that the entire text is suspect.

Some skeptics may point to the Fermi Paradox,

Fermi Paradox

The biggest problem with Fermi's paradox is How do the researchers know they have access to ALL forms of evidence, very clearly there are secret government programs which only a select few can have access, so we can deduce that there is information to which most researchers have no access, nor can they obtain the information from others that do have access, and unless you can have access to all information one cannot claim that "all evidence points to No ETs"?

Also, they make the assumption that ETs are visiting the earth for the first time and that if they are visiting for the first time they would want to make it known to everyone. This is argument is highly Anthropocentric, simply because we would want to make our presence known does not imply other possibly more advanced species would do the same. Hence, possible ET craft would not necessarily broadcast their location to everyone. If so then how would these researchers detect them? Without free untampered, access to a worldwide set of sensors like radars, satellite imagining, radiation detectors, etc, it would be difficult for a well-intentioned researcher to detect such craft.

Also, how certain can you be that information and evidence we do have has not been tampered or manipulated? These researchers rely on the assumed honesty of those who receive raw data from space craft, (the very assumption that NASA receives "raw" data may also be suspect) , which, as we have seen in the last couple of years, is lacking and or researchers may be coerced into ignoring, manipulating, deleting, unfavorable data.

In addition, some researchers may have contacts with researchers in secret projects or government officials that have access to such information, and they may ask them to state that given all the information they have access to, whether or not ETs are currently visiting the earth. Then it becomes a question of trust, not to mention that without access to such evidence not only do you have to trust the person, but you also have to trust in their ability to analyze the information and come to a rational conclusion.

Finally, even if some of the evidence can be proven to be accurate, many researchers do not look at the available evidence in detail, nor to they submit the evidence to analysis to determine if indeed certain structures on other planet are artificial or that radar returns are from actual solid objects and not atmospheric scatter or malfunctioning equipment.

I see that some of the modern strategies the secret government employs to keep ETs secret is to shift societal norms, gangstalking dissidents and ET believers, neural monitoring so as to render those who do research in the UFO field incapable of performing rigorous research or developing new ideas, hiring skeptics to post online in forums and message boards, chat rooms, news comments sections 24/7, praising and rewarding those who hold skeptical beliefs and ideologies, especially those who develop new methods of obfuscation.

The truth is out there available to almost anyone and that is what scares them the most.

Remember if the secret government is bleeding money, power, influence, and support, then we can kill it. We just have to find the analog of dropping a huge log on it's head, just like the movie Predator 1987.



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 12:25 AM
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a reply to: deloprator20000



Remember if the secret government is bleeding money, power, influence, and support, then we can kill it.

What if it isn't?
Scary thought?



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 02:53 AM
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a reply to: JadeStar
That is all still based on life as we know or claim it to be.

It might be 100% correct but might not. Given the size, age and our knowledge of the universe, there are many more possibilities that could occur.


edit on 11/23/2014 by roadgravel because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 04:02 AM
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a reply to: mirageman

If you think about it, they can't really just come here, and say "Hello, yes, we are extra-terrestrials, and yes we are real..." and then leave. They would have many concerns such as:

The effect their visit would have on the populace and on the course of Earth's future
The security risk posed by humans knowing the whereabouts of their world
The danger of them sharing their technology (and secrets) with us
The means by which they expose themselves

Its not just a simple "visit" it would have to be a highly organised and orchestrated "event" and I'm sure we would have to meet many "conditions" just to make communication and interaction occur.

An invasion is another story - we can be willing, or, they would opt to take us by force.

If we were to "make contact" first, we could present ourselves as a threat to their world, and they might simply obliterate us with no questions asked.
edit on 23-11-2014 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 05:04 AM
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originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: JadeStar
That is all still based on life as we know or claim it to be.

It might be 100% correct but might not. Given the size, age and our knowledge of the universe, there are many more possibilities that could occur.



One can only look for life as we know it based on the known universe and its physical limitations. That's called science. Its fun to imagine all sorts of bizarre stuff from sci-fi or new age teachings but:

1) It doesn't help us get any closer to finding it if it does not conform to the laws of physics and chemistry. Aliens are not going to be some supernatural beings. They will inhabit the same universe with the same universal laws as we do.

2) There's every reason to believe that life as we know it is very common. Why not go after the low hanging fruit? We've got to start somewhere right?
edit on 23-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 05:14 AM
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originally posted by: Phage



So there is not one Habitable Zone concept there are actually several.
a reply to: JadeStar

And to use a local colloquialism; "Dat's the tricky part, brah."

When are we going to be able to find moons around exo-planets? They are there of course but...


BTW: I forgot to mention that I have been working on some ideas of how to look for a moon around Upsilon Andromedae A d (one of the nearby gas giants in a habitable zone orbit just 44 light years away - it was one of the first exoplanets discovered in 1999 when I was 7 years old
)





Without going into too many technical details there -may- be a way by using highly sensitive radial velocity data, to tease out a moon with detailed spectral data from Upsilon Andromedae A coming from the upcoming European Extremely Large Telescope (E-ELT) in Chile (the one they blew the top of the mountain off to begin to build this year.).


Rendition of hypothetical habitable moon of Ups And A d based solely on TIF:


But with a little tidal heating from Ups And A d it could very well look like this:






edit on 23-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 06:10 AM
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originally posted by: SystemResistor
a reply to: mirageman


An invasion is another story - we can be willing, or, they would opt to take us by force.

If we were to "make contact" first, we could present ourselves as a threat to their world, and they might simply obliterate us with no questions asked.


Invasions make great sci-fi but any species who could get here would not likely see us as a threat. They would always be further along than us no matter how advanced we became.



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: roadgravel
a reply to: JadeStar
That is all still based on life as we know or claim it to be.

It might be 100% correct but might not. Given the size, age and our knowledge of the universe, there are many more possibilities that could occur.



One can only look for life as we know it based on the known universe and its physical limitations. That's called science. Its fun to imagine all sorts of bizarre stuff from sci-fi or new age teachings but:

1) It doesn't help us get any closer to finding it if it does not conform to the laws of physics and chemistry. Aliens are not going to be some supernatural beings. They will inhabit the same universe with the same universal laws as we do.

2) There's every reason to believe that life as we know it is very common. Why not go after the low hanging fruit? We've got to start somewhere right?


I'm just saying human arrogance says we know much about the universe - reality is that we probably don't. Sure we can look for that which we understand but I am saying we need to keep an open mind.

We don't even know if the laws of the universe are uniform. You'll say they are but no one actually knows. We also probably don't know all the laws anyway.



posted on Nov, 24 2014 @ 12:44 AM
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originally posted by: roadgravel
We don't even know if the laws of the universe are uniform.


Actually we do. The light from other parts of the universe tells us so.

My field of astronomy contributed greatly to that understanding over the last 200 years.

To say otherwise is to ignore pretty concrete science. Just because you might not understand it doesn't mean that humanity in general doesn't understand it.

Even some of the more esoteric parts of Einstein's work like time dilation, the geodetic effect and frame dragging have now been proven through repeated observation.

If you want to learn how we know what we know I can suggest some books.


edit on 24-11-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 29 2014 @ 01:40 AM
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a reply to: yuppa




Fist reason they do not reveal themselves is the GOvernment will not allow them to do so.


I do not buy into the whole evil government thing. Administration is simply not that exciting. Yes, there are very rich people looking to get even more very rich, but greed is rampant in ever avenue of society, fueled by insecurity and perceived isolation. The question is, if these beings are capable of interplanetary travel, their technology must be hundreds or even thousands of years ahead pf us. "...will not allow them..." infers some sort of control. How much control can our governments exert over races that are capable of things that we are not even aware of?



Abductions. Actually these are all government sanctioned and they implant false memories to cover up the experiments.


Is there anything other than speculation that supports this theory? We know governments abduct and torture people, why are they not given false memories then, if that is indeed something governments are capable of?

You must be very careful of just following the "it's THE GOVERNMENT" herd. The government is made of people - confused and misguided, perhaps, but still people. What motivates them is nothing unfathomable, and so their activities can be discerned. They seek power, certainly. They seek control over resources, yes. They use deception and manipulation to get what they want, of course! But in your everyday life, how many people do you encounter who do not do these things, to some degree?

Secret space programs I also find very unlikely. Why spend billions on a fake space program that uses conventional technology, when you could be showing off your real capabilities? Of classified projects we are all aware. But even these conform to the limits of human ingenuity. In a world where every major government wants to impress and intimidate the others, why keep something so advanced secret?

These black triangles that you mention, are they related to the Phoenix lights incident? If so, I believe there are indications that this was part of an ET maneuver to coincide with some abductee coming forward and writing a book about how these aliens are really the progenitors of life on Earth, how we are their "experiment" and they are now here to claim back their property... Now that is what I call implanting false memories!



The offshoot civilization currently orbiting cloaked use their mind tech to that end in exchange for informaton.


I have no idea what you mean by offshooot civilization. There are billions of stars with potentially inhabitable planets in our region of the galaxy. We can only guess how many intelligent races are really out there.

And what information could these "cloaked orbiters" possible want that we are not already beaming into space as part of our brilliant satellite communications network? Anything within a few light years would be able to discern our fears, fantasies, our desires, our secrets, everything! We treat space as if it is just an empty wilderness. Maybe we should start viewing it more as a big, bustling metropolis...



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 02:37 AM
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IF humans found evidence of aliens and made first contact - the powers that be would keep it secret from the general public.

Why? As quoted in MIB "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Imagine all the extreme religious devotees, if aliens presented themselves and said "we created Earth"
where does that leave God?

Islamists would chimp out and blow everything up. Kim Jong-Il would accuse the US Gov't of lying/or take credit for
creating the aliens. Everyday people who put their faith in a higher power would be devastated: imaging all the money, time
effort and trust you put into God, Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Buddha etc that little part in ourselves that says "if you do bad things, bad things will come back to you" or even that if you go around murdering people you won't get into Heaven...all gone.



posted on Dec, 3 2014 @ 02:40 AM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: roadgravel
We don't even know if the laws of the universe are uniform.


Even some of the more esoteric parts of Einstein's work like time dilation, the geodetic effect and frame dragging have now been proven through repeated observation.

If you want to learn how we know what we know I can suggest some books.



What books could you suggest? I just watched Interstellar and it seems to touch what you've spoken about - but I only have a basic understanding



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