Public Education vs. Ignorant Parents

a reply to: beezzer

Here, here! I was schooled in America, but someone made a mistake and put me in a gifted program with an instructor who taught us all formal logic and reasoning skills as part of our gifted program education.

I realized rather quickly that they weren't learning that in the regular classroom, and now as an adult, I see how poorly most people around me are trained in basic thought processes.

The school we have picked out for our son does teach formal logic and rhetoric as part of the curriculum, so he will get those skills taught and not have to simply organically develop them on his own.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Fine if all that was taught was the subjects, but it's not.

And don't pull the highly trained educational professional card on me. I have also been a "highly trained educational professional" in my time, too.

It mostly consists of sticking to the text book, and when you are given Howard Zinn's "A People's History" that is hardly a straight view of things, but it's the text book.

Nobody is giving Zinn to those kids as required reading. But maybe they should as one of a huge multitude of books, as he deconstructs a lot of elitist history.

You say you want to create free and agentic people. People will not have the ability to be self-actualized if they do not have access to enough 1) diversity of experience 2) diversity of people's and cultures 3) diversity of educational input.

Tell me a better place to get that in a structured way over 15 years.

Homeschoolers can't provide enough of all of that and frankly, I bet most aren't themselves Plato and ready to unleash some more enlightened reality to their kids than secular schools.

a reply to: Metallicus

We are simply fighting for our very survival and that of our nation against you and your NWO controllers.

Well said Honest human being (human being!) not some mouthpiece of the state!

Who did? If you are referring to me I provided an educated opinion as someone that works in education. I did not say it was a fact. However, I am willing to bet if we did a real research study my hypothesis would bear true.

a reply to: VoidHawk

and during those movements all talking is banned and they must walk with one hand on the shoulder of the person in front!!! What "fact" do you think that is teaching them?

er...walking into concentraions camps? oh sorry I meant follow the leader to the nearest Iphone vendor or No cooking allowed McDonalds

a reply to: beezzer

Good on you.

As far as I'm concerned, home schooled kids are getting a better educational experience based on a one to one set up that is altered and tweaked to best fit that child.

The only people capable of determining those independent needs are the parents.

You can't teach a child individually in a classroom of 40 kids... no matter how dedicated and determined a teacher is. This is why so many kids are falling through the cracks and graduating high school with 5th grade reading comprehension.

a reply to: ketsuko

We actually belong to a home school community that works in conjunction with a university to develop lesson plans and such. Our son is doing quite well and we have a hands-on input into his education which is self-paced and is actually tailored to his individual strengths and talents.

It's too bad not more people can do what we are doing.

And this is something we are both speaking to.

Most families simply will not teach their kid a huge range of uncomfortable or challenging ways of thinking or actual evidenced historical issues. Most families just download a bunch of personal beliefs, tradition, culture, etc. Then most children, absent either having a bunch of personal experience and study OR a structured community (school for example) that provides a larger range of exposure, will end up just being replicates of their own family's biases.

So why would this be different for home schoolers, or religious schools?

The problem is, you are assuming that parents magically have all of the training necessary to teach myriad subjects. They don't.

You see, education is an profession, not just knowing your kid and his or her strengths, needs, etc. There is a lot of knowledge needed not only on actual topics but also psychology, linguistics, pedagogy, and so on.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: beezzer

Good on you.

As far as I'm concerned, home schooled kids are getting a better educational experience based on a one to one set up that is altered and tweaked to best fit that child.

The only people capable of determining those independent needs are the parents.

You can't teach a child individually in a classroom of 40 kids... no matter how dedicated and determined a teacher is. This is why so many kids are falling through the cracks and graduating high school with 5th grade reading comprehension.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Thank you!

Case in point, we're trying to pace him so he doesn't just read/regurgitate information.

He had algebra and then a roman numeral lesson plan.

We went back and created worksheets using algebraic equations using roman numerals.

If you are referring to me, I stated in at least two posts that I was referring to an educated guess based on experience with people and education. I didn't state fact.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: beezzer

Isn't 99% of this site opinions?

You're right.

And to pass off opinion as fact is dishonest.

But I suppose that's what the really smart people can do.

I just eat crayons and raise my children poorly.

a reply to: ketsuko

It mostly consists of sticking to the text book, and when you are given Howard Zinn's "A People's History" that is hardly a straight view of things, but it's the text book

Aha yes the textbook... Lol... This is literally all you need to home-teach, because its literally all they are using in Schools... Why it took 5 pages to mention a textbook i dont know!

Lol

You can teach an intelligent enough child a subject all the way up to college level before they are even at the age of high school enrollment following the textbooks. If theres ones good thing to have come out of academia its got to have been the textbook... Some are better than others but on the whole theyre really well laid out and densely packed with knowledge. Come age 12 your kids will be using these in classrooms. Some pages are the whole class with excercises etc... The teachers dont need to plan class, they just fpllownthe textbook.... So why dont parents let thei kids stay hkme and buy all the relevant text books and let the child learn them in their own time?

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

The problem is, you are assuming that parents magically have all of the training necessary to teach myriad subjects. They don't.

The problem is you are assuming that these parents have IQ's under 80 per se.

For parents whose intellectual capabilities fall on the other side of the bell curve, they're quite capable of teaching their children a myriad of subjects based on the curriculum set out before them... with the added bonus of knowing in great detail the individual needs of their child (strengths and weaknesses).

Is it for all parents ? Of course not.

But to make the blanket statement that it cannot be done by anyone who isn't in possession of 15 post-secondary degrees is simply unsubstantiated supposition.

a reply to: tavi45

you should be more worried about the corruption of the pharmaceutical industries than anything to do with education.

So your ideal teaching environment allows for local student led action to ban pharmaceutical lobbyists of their power in the buying process of Governmments. Or are you trying to wash your hands by saying its not educations fault. When was the last time you heard of a US school saying "we're on strike until we stop our soldiers being killed overseas to keep the US petrodollar afloat or to keep the drugs flowing back into the US from Afghanistan"

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Before modern education most people were barely literate

So before 1905 people were barely literate. So did this modernization make them better consumers or better critics of the society they were told to have from above?

I disagree, you are conflating intelligence with actual skills or understanding.

Your argument would be like saying "ah because this person has an iq of 150 therefore they don't need to study medicine to be a practicing doctor, because they are smart!"

Do you see why that doesn't quite work?

Education is incredibly challenging.

You noted that someone could follow a curriculum.

Perhaps, but that's not even being a real educator. This is what I mean, a "real" educator could write the entire curriculum from scratch, something a random high iq parent would find very difficult to do.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

The problem is, you are assuming that parents magically have all of the training necessary to teach myriad subjects. They don't.

The problem is you are assuming that these parents have IQ's under 80 per se.

For parents whose intellectual capabilities fall on the other side of the bell curve, they're quite capable of teaching their children a myriad of subjects based on the curriculum set out before them... with the added bonus of knowing in great detail the individual needs of their child (strengths and weaknesses).

Is it for all parents ? Of course not.

But to make the blanket statement that it cannot be done by anyone who isn't in possession of 15 post-secondary degrees is simply unsubstantiated supposition.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Before modern education most people were barely literate

So before 1905 people were barely literate. So did this modernization make them better consumers or better critics of the society they were told to have from above?

Despite the fact that most people are still utterly brainwashed across the board, more people are aware of real history and global affairs than ever before.

Is public school perfect in creating critical thinkers? Not by any means.

Do I think that the brainwashed and low information families all home schooling their kids would solve that or make more critical thinkers? Hell no.

You can't consider what your or a few select families' abilities or critical thinking are. You have to think if homeschooling was scaled to all families. Utterly impossible, one, and most families aren't all about education and critical thinking. The kids would actually be worse off.

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: xuenchen

Hehe my apologies. I just see you posting so much anti Democrat pro Republican stuff. My apologies. Are you independent?

What exactly did I deflect? People on here constantly use that term to invalidate things without responding to the point.

Let's abandon the partisan stuff. It's my fault for bringing it up.

Do you disagree with the point on personal responsibility? If so, why?

You mention personal responsibility in different situations, all apparently pointing at the student level and options parents have for schooling.

Assuming that's accurate, I would say personal responsibility starts at the educator level.

The educators are supposed to be teaching and administrating, not casting blame at parents and students.

The personal responsibility comes by example, as the educators are the ones getting paid the big money for "teaching".

Yet the educators keep an endless loop of blame on parents, parents of parents, parents of parents of parents etc. and students with an array of endless loop excuses for students' failures.

The educators are supposed to have answers and solutions for every possibility and situation.

Bureaucracy breeds anonymity and thus no personal responsibility, hence convenient excuses for failure.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Your argument would be like saying "ah because this person has an iq of 150 therefore they don't need to study medicine to be a practicing doctor, because they are smart!"

Illogical analogy.

You noted that someone could follow a curriculum.

Perhaps, but that's not even being a real educator. This is what I mean, a "real" educator could write the entire curriculum from scratch, something a random high iq parent would find very difficult to do.

That's what your degrees are for... to create an entire curriculum, have it passed by state/federal regulations... and then dole it out to the system to be utilized by educators to teach their students with.

You've created a bit of a conundrum with your own argument.

a reply to: ketsuko

Or maybe it's because people don't care enough about knowledge to remember what they learned. I remember a ton from school because I didn't let my brain rot. My friends remember almost nothing. They have college degrees. I don't. Funny it seems like learning might have a lot to do with the attitude and effort of the individual.