The Mysterious Underground Labyrinth of Hawara (Revisited)

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


Like I said, for strategic reasons. Emptying a deadly wave from a bassin like the Lake of Moeris could last mere hours until water level came back to normal. We are not talking about the annual Monsoon floods, but as the Nile used as a strategic weapon of mass destruction, like how Moses demonstrates it (he was infact raised an Egyptian prince) in Exodus when he wipes out an Egyptian army in an instant by passing a river crossing between two turnable walls.

Ah I think you might wish to view just how much water would come out and at what rate and what the achieved rise would be. I don't think it would have much effect - ie no wave just a small increase in the volume. Do you have the numbers?

Yes, today that is what the Nile looks like. After the construction of the Great Aswan Dam. Back then things were quite different. During the annual floodings, nilometers along the river shows the river could rise by more than 15 meters above normal level. Even higher, but the nilometers don't go higher. Also keep in mind that back then the whole valley and even deep into what is now desert, they transported water in canals and waterways. With artificial lakes like the Lake of Moeris to store the Monsoon floods. According to Herodotus, water would run in to the Lake of Moeris from the Nile during flood season, and emptied throughout the year via canals to an elaboraste irrigation system as far West as Libya.

You might want to check that in meters in 9.5 I believe you are thinking of cubits

Again, you can't possibly have read what I wrote. We are not talking about months of flooding, perhaps mere hours.

I did and you won't get the effect you seem to think, nor the depth and you would be trapped by the enemy.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


Like I said, for strategic reasons. Emptying a deadly wave from a bassin like the Lake of Moeris could last mere hours until water level came back to normal. We are not talking about the annual Monsoon floods, but as the Nile used as a strategic weapon of mass destruction, like how Moses demonstrates it (he was infact raised an Egyptian prince) in Exodus when he wipes out an Egyptian army in an instant by passing a river crossing between two turnable walls.

Ah I think you might wish to view just how much water would come out and at what rate and what the achieved rise would be. I don't think it would have much effect - ie no wave just a small increase in the volume. Do you have the numbers?

Yes, and so would you if you had taken your time to read what I wrote or checked the source. It was massive and could be seen from space, unlike any other manmade structures we know of. 3600 stades perimeter (that's the same as the coastline of Egypt, 1 stadium is 185 meters), 300 feet deep. That's a massive body of water.

Yes, today that is what the Nile looks like. After the construction of the Great Aswan Dam. Back then things were quite different. During the annual floodings, nilometers along the river shows the river could rise by more than 15 meters above normal level. Even higher, but the nilometers don't go higher. Also keep in mind that back then the whole valley and even deep into what is now desert, they transported water in canals and waterways. With artificial lakes like the Lake of Moeris to store the Monsoon floods. According to Herodotus, water would run in to the Lake of Moeris from the Nile during flood season, and emptied throughout the year via canals to an elaboraste irrigation system as far West as Libya.

You might want to check that in meters in 9.5 I believe you are thinking of cubits

archive.org... ==> Here's some modern figures from Rodah. Leaf through the book, it's not the Bible. As I said, these are modern figures (1800's) and don't show the numbers of the unharnessed Leviathan (the Nile). Numbers in the book show variations from about 12 (low) to 20 meters (high), but again, these are modern numbers, and at Rodah.

www.waterhistory.org... ==> This is the Nilometer at Cairo (Roda Island). At Cairo the Nilometer stops at about 10 meters. No use measuring anything above that, you are in disaster land.

www.waterhistory.org... ==> drawing showing their Nile DEFCON scale.

www.reshafim.org.il... ==> Map showing the Nile with Lake Moeris drawn in, the green there is the limits of the Nile during the annual floods, as it was way back. The flooding Nile is called 'Yam Suph' during flood season in the Bible, meaning 'Sea of Reeds'. The Nile literally turned in to a giant moving sea. Remember this is a steady current. Empying Lake Moeris, even when the Nile would be at it's lowest, would be one massive and destructive wave of water.

Again, you can't possibly have read what I wrote. We are not talking about months of flooding, perhaps mere hours.

I did and you won't get the effect you seem to think, nor the depth and you would be trapped by the enemy.

Eat it. It's as sweet as it is bitter. Sweet for me. Bitter for you. ETA:

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Actually I did

I think what you are missing is that the water from the lake won't come out in a 'flood', it will come out and cause a gradual increase in depth, over time. You need to look at the height (altitude) of the lake and the difference between that and where it would enter the Nile.

That difference will give you the rate.

You might want to run your idea thru the hands of a qualified hydrologist - they can give you an idea how realistic your idea is.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Actually I did

I think what you are missing is that the water from the lake won't come out in a 'flood', it will come out and cause a gradual increase in depth, over time. You need to look at the height (altitude) of the lake and the difference between that and where it would enter the Nile.

And I think you underestimate the ingenuity of the "gods" of ancient Egypt. Thing is this basin was designed partly to be a weapon, thus it would empty it's full potential by breaking the north and/or eastern wall. These guys were serious. They were able to turn all of Egypt and way into Libya green and instead of what's today desert, the power of the Ankh turned the desert into a lush culture landscape making Egypt the world's grain depot. Not much left of that these days. What you forget is that this lake was manmade and was designed not only for irrigation, but as a weapon with it's pros and cons, so strategy was important: Like you said, the invading army would use all it's force on trying to get into the Pyramid (which would be impossible, given they were short on time), Leviathan was already let lose and rushing towards Cairo "moving at 9 feet per second (2.7 meters per second), a common speed for flash floods, can move rocks weighing almost a hundred pounds. Flash floods carry debris that elevate their potential to damage structures and injure people" [source: www.livescience.com...].

That difference will give you the rate.

If there was a mere ten meter difference from Moeris to the Med, the stored and accumulated kinetic energies alone would mean a literal wall of water with the power of a nuke and at least as destructive.

You might want to run your idea thru the hands of a qualified hydrologist - they can give you an idea how realistic your idea is.

Indeed. But some things are so simple that even you should be able to agree that millions of tons of water let loose all at once bringing with it just about everything it hits, well, it's quite destructive. Don't you think?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


And I think you underestimate the ingenuity of the "gods" of ancient Egypt. Thing is this basin was designed partly to be a weapon, thus it would empty it's full potential by breaking the north and/or eastern wall. These guys were serious. They were able to turn all of Egypt and way into Libya green and instead of what's today desert, the power of the Ankh turned the desert into a lush culture landscape making Egypt the world's grain depot. Not much left of that these days. What you forget is that this lake was manmade and was designed not only for irrigation, but as a weapon with it's pros and cons, so strategy was important:

You are basing this on what exactly? Remember the classical scholars mistook the work of later pharaoh's to think the lake is artificial, you seem to believe this also. The artificial works would have been completed well after the pyramids were already built.

Geological study of the early Faiyum lake

Like you said, the invading army would use all it's force on trying to get into the Pyramid (which would be impossible, given they were short on time), Leviathan was already let lose and rushing towards Cairo "moving at 9 feet per second (2.7 meters per second), a common speed for flash floods, can move rocks weighing almost a hundred pounds. Flash floods carry debris that elevate their potential to damage structures and injure people" [source: www.livescience.com...].

Take a look at the entrance channel which direction is it facing? Upstream or downstream

If there was a mere ten meter difference from Moeris to the Med, the stored and accumulated kinetic energies alone would mean a literal wall of water with the power of a nuke and at least as destructive.Indeed. But some things are so simple that even you should be able to agree that millions of tons of water let loose all at once bringing with it just about everything it hits, well, it's quite destructive. Don't you think?

The problem is you cannot release it all at once and what is the size of the channel you believe this water would come down?

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

... I've made it a goal to visit as many of the sites that are acclaimed as I can, from Mexico to India.

A good idea and one I did myself. If you have a job skill that transports over seas do so working overseas gives you a larger income, more vacation time and best yet it is easier to get to the main sites of interest. If you have no set profession yet consider becoming an ESL English teacher, native speakers are always in demand to teach that subject in foreign countries.

Thanks man.

Yeah, this is actually the back door route to how I got into international development.

I was originally an ancient history nerd, into anthropology, and so on. I began studying various cultures and traveling as much as possible. As a result of this, I began to realize the inequalities that existed, poverty, current political problems across countries, corruption, education gaps, and so on.

My first job abroad was being an ESL teacher in China.

Before that I was a psychology researcher working with Native American tribes here in the US and later a science teacher working with low income immigrant kids.

Then I came back to school to study international development, partly out of my global interest and partly out of wanting to take action. I've met more than one other person who got into global social justice and development through backgrounds such as yours or mine.

Since then I've worked in Bangladesh in agriculture/food security and the Dominican Republic in non-profit capacity building.

Development, besides international business or politics, is the best way for sure to have a meaningful stable career and keep the travel and cultural focus. In fact, you almost need your and my training to be effective in the work.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Looks like you have a plan. As you probably already know the expatriate life style becomes very addictive - probably because it's great!

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


And I think you underestimate the ingenuity of the "gods" of ancient Egypt. Thing is this basin was designed partly to be a weapon, thus it would empty it's full potential by breaking the north and/or eastern wall. These guys were serious. They were able to turn all of Egypt and way into Libya green and instead of what's today desert, the power of the Ankh turned the desert into a lush culture landscape making Egypt the world's grain depot. Not much left of that these days. What you forget is that this lake was manmade and was designed not only for irrigation, but as a weapon with it's pros and cons, so strategy was important:

You are basing this on what exactly? Remember the classical scholars mistook the work of later pharaoh's to think the lake is artificial, you seem to believe this also. The artificial works would have been completed well after the pyramids were already built.

Geological study of the early Faiyum lake

It would be pretty stupid to build the lake before the Pyramids. You are aware the Nile has an annual flood season. These days Egypt notices little to this because of the Aswan dam that was built not long ago. Water levels doubled turning the whole Nile Valley into a giant lake. Without artificial lakes like Moeris and (possibly five) others just like it deep into the Saharan desert which was criss crossed with canals and dug out lakes, storing the monsoon rain that is brought down the Nile during flood season securing lower Nile through Egypt and arming the Pharaoh's with the powers of gods.

Like you said, the invading army would use all it's force on trying to get into the Pyramid (which would be impossible, given they were short on time), Leviathan was already let lose and rushing towards Cairo "moving at 9 feet per second (2.7 meters per second), a common speed for flash floods, can move rocks weighing almost a hundred pounds. Flash floods carry debris that elevate their potential to damage structures and injure people" [source: www.livescience.com...].

Take a look at the entrance channel which direction is it facing? Upstream or downstream

I fail to see your point. The Pyramids have no above ground entrances. The one they use now was found after having removed several giant stones weighing several tons, and don't forget the mantle. The Great Pyramid can be reached through a subterranean passage that leads to the Pit. They should go down there and use ground radar to find the passage below. Also, they should soon find the tombs (of Adam, Eve and Abel) inside the Great Pyramid.

If there was a mere ten meter difference from Moeris to the Med, the stored and accumulated kinetic energies alone would mean a literal wall of water with the power of a nuke and at least as destructive.Indeed. But some things are so simple that even you should be able to agree that millions of tons of water let loose all at once bringing with it just about everything it hits, well, it's quite destructive. Don't you think?

The problem is you cannot release it all at once and what is the size of the channel you believe this water would come down?

I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

It would be pretty stupid to build the lake before the Pyramids.

Yes it would (in your world).

The lake existed a long time before the pyramids ever came into existence and much of the later construction was well after they were built so not quite sure what your point is....

Without artificial lakes like Moeris and (possibly five) others just like it deep into the Saharan desert which was criss crossed with canals and dug out lakes, storing the monsoon rain that is brought down the Nile during flood season securing lower Nile through Egypt and arming the Pharaoh's with the powers of gods.

Yes but you appear to just be making all this up; yes there were lakes, these were modified to hold back water for future irrigation. I see nothing in this that would allow 'war' floods to be released down the Nile, yes they could release water but it would raise the level of the existing flood only a small degree. and of course if they did that the enemy would just move out of the valley and into/onto the surrounding valley walls.

Again you need the numbers which would show where the problem lies.

Like you said, the invading army would use all it's force on trying to get into the Pyramid (which would be impossible, given they were short on time), Leviathan was already let lose and rushing towards Cairo "moving at 9 feet per second (2.7 meters per second), a common speed for flash floods, can move rocks weighing almost a hundred pounds. Flash floods carry debris that elevate their potential to damage structures and injure people" [source: www.livescience.com...].

Why would it be moving at 'flash flood speed'? What is the level of the lake above the Nile?

[quote]I fail to see your point.

That isn't surprizing as you have failed to look at the situation on the ground. To put it another way where does the water go when it leaves the lake? Do you know?

The Pyramids have no above ground entrances. The one they use now was found after having removed several giant stones weighing several tons, and don't forget the mantle. The Great Pyramid can be reached through a subterranean passage that leads to the Pit.

Oh really - and where is that then?

They should go down there and use ground radar to find the passage below. Also, they should soon find the tombs (of Adam, Eve and Abel) inside the Great Pyramid.

strange they cannot find an opening in the limestone - Adam and Eve huh? Well I see you are a fantasist.

If there was a mere ten meter difference from Moeris to the Med, the stored and accumulated kinetic energies alone would mean a literal wall of water with the power of a nuke and at least as destructive.Indeed. But some things are so simple that even you should be able to agree that millions of tons of water let loose all at once bringing with it just about everything it hits, well, it's quite destructive. Don't you think?

Wow 33 feet and what is the difference from the lake to Cairo which you seem to feel is the target area?

I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

Why don't you make up a diagram of this mysterious arrangement taking into consideration the various elevations involved - I mean you have done that right?

edit on 8/11/14 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


It would be pretty stupid to build the lake before the Pyramids. You are aware the Nile has an annual flood season. These days Egypt notices little to this because of the Aswan dam that was built not long ago. Water levels doubled turning the whole Nile Valley into a giant lake. Without artificial lakes like Moeris and (possibly five) others just like it deep into the Saharan desert which was criss crossed with canals and dug out lakes, storing the monsoon rain that is brought down the Nile during flood season securing lower Nile through Egypt and arming the Pharaoh's with the powers of gods.

But even if you continue to ignore the copious geological data definitively showing that the lake has existed for several thousand years prior to the first pyramids being built, the first written records mentioning it are from roughly 500 years prior to the construction of Khufu's pyramid at Gaza during the time of Menes. There simply is nothing in either the geologic or historic record to support your hypothesis. The simple fact is that when the lake was still freshwater that it was considerably smaller except for when the Nile flooded and it acted as a fill reservoir during these periods often being completely dry except for when there were high flood waters. It wasnt until a mil,Emma after the construction of the pyramids at Giza ( around 2300 BOE) that work was doee to widen and deepen the lake as well as creating the canal. There are records of this happening but the lake itself is completely natural and this is a fact whether or not you want to accept the geologic data or written record of the AE.

I fail to see your point. The Pyramids have no above ground entrances. The one they use now was found after having removed several giant stones weighing several tons, and don't forget the mantle. The Great Pyramid can be reached through a subterranean passage that leads to the Pit. They should go down there and use ground radar to find the passage below. Also, they should soon find the tombs (of Adam, Eve and Abel) inside the Great Pyramid.

This entire viewpoint is predicated on pure conjecture and nary a fact in site to support it. And then you try to add Adam, Eve and Abel into the mix which is just mind blowing to me being the first I've ever heard of anything of the nature. As the creation story of genesis is borrowed heavily from earlier Sumerian texts I fail to see how you are connecting them to these structures period let alone wht it has to do with your fantastical tale of Leviathon flooding protecting the Egyptian elite. How many people are hiding in the Pyramid? How many cubic feet of area is within? If its airtight as you claim, then these variables need to be calculated to see how long your prescribed group can survive within the airtight confines as they use up the rather limited supply of O2 and exhale copious amounts of CO2 into the chambers. Even if the time frame you be,I've they would need to hide out is as limited as you claim you need to account for the time they would relocate to within the pyramid, the time it takes to seal the e trance from within, how long they would be hiding as well as how long it would take to unseal the entrance/exit. If the Pharoah along with his court high priests and requisite guard are within they aren't going to emerge the moment the flood passes and if the pyramid needs to be airtight then it stands to reason that is because the water would reach a height necessitating the airtight structure as well as time for the water to recede. Without having all of those numbers, the entire story hinges on so much co hectare and suspension of scientific fact that it simply seems incredibly implausible. Can you support this with the apropriate numbers and calculations to push this inside the real of reality or are we to just take your word that its all true as opposed to everything in the historical and geological record that stands in stark contravention to your postulation.

I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

Again, citations, calculations numbers?! Anything that supports this beyond conjecture? It makes for a great story, perhaps you and Graham Hancock could coauthor a book together. This is right up his or Bauval's alley.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

It would be pretty stupid to build the lake before the Pyramids.

Yes it would (in your world).

The lake existed a long time before the pyramids ever came into existence and much of the later construction was well after they were built so not quite sure what your point is....

OK then, where is it? I'm not sure we are talking about the same Lake. What you see today is basically a little pond with connected marsh land www.eosnap.com... If we are to believe Herodoth and others, back in Egypt's glory days, all of Egypt was green, deep into Libya and Sudan. At the time of Herodotus, it's perimeter was 3600 stades, that's quite a large lake compered to the silted pond you see today going by that name. For fun, do the math with those numbers: 3600 stades x 0.185 (km) = 666 km (sounds familiar?). Herodotus also speaks of two massive pyramids built in the geometrical middle of it, 600 feet high, half submerged. That'd be higher than the Great Pyramid, which is (or rather was) a mere 481 ft in comparison, so I am sort of sceptical to it, he claimed to have seen it, then again, he also saw the Tower of Babel. I am not sure what they call Lake Moeris today quite fits the description of Herodotus. But anyway we twist it, and given Lake Moeris is the lake we call by that name, it is today silted down storing more sand and dirt than water. Herodotus says they dug out the lake.

But where are the two giant centre pyramids? I guess they were designed to fall in the event the northern wall was broken and the lake would be emptied into the valley.

Without artificial lakes like Moeris and (possibly five) others just like it deep into the Saharan desert which was criss crossed with canals and dug out lakes, storing the monsoon rain that is brought down the Nile during flood season securing lower Nile through Egypt and arming the Pharaoh's with the powers of gods.

Yes but you appear to just be making all this up; yes there were lakes, these were modified to hold back water for future irrigation. I see nothing in this that would allow 'war' floods to be released down the Nile, yes they could release water but it would raise the level of the existing flood only a small degree. and of course if they did that the enemy would just move out of the valley and into/onto the surrounding valley walls.

Again you need the numbers which would show where the problem lies.

OK. Theoretically, if the lake was circular, it would be roughly 212 km across (to comparison Lake Victoria is 250 km across), covering an area of roughly 35 000 square km, and given the measures of Herodoth, it was a walled pool and it would be 300 feet deep, let's say 100 meters, we're talking about a body of water 3 500 cubic kilometers. Turn the Ankh, Nile becomes Leviathan. Turn the Ankh again, pull a few levers and pull and push here and there and Egypt becomes the world's grains storehouse. We need this knowledge today, we could turn Sahara into grain fields. You see all these things the Egyptians keep in their hands in the papyri they mean something. It shows their god-like power. They weren't making things up, they held these powers, through masonry and ingenuity.

Like you said, the invading army would use all it's force on trying to get into the Pyramid (which would be impossible, given they were short on time), Leviathan was already let lose and rushing towards Cairo "moving at 9 feet per second (2.7 meters per second), a common speed for flash floods, can move rocks weighing almost a hundred pounds. Flash floods carry debris that elevate their potential to damage structures and injure people" [source: www.livescience.com...].

Why would it be moving at 'flash flood speed'? What is the level of the lake above the Nile?

It's elevation is more than enough to sustain the momentum of a body of water like the one in question. You've never lived near a river that floods, have you? Well I have lived with annual floods all my life, and you wouldn't believe what destruction rivers, brooks and canals can wield. Like you said yourself, go through the numbers again. And go rafting once, it'd do you good. And do a simulation in your head.

I fail to see your point.

That isn't surprizing as you have failed to look at the situation on the ground. To put it another way where does the water go when it leaves the lake? Do you know?

Have I? I am talking of Herodotus' Lake Moeris. I am not sure the one you can find on maps and satellite images fits the description of Herodoth. There is more to find. Much more.

The Pyramids have no above ground entrances. The one they use now was found after having removed several giant stones weighing several tons, and don't forget the mantle. The Great Pyramid can be reached through a subterranean passage that leads to the Pit.

Oh really - and where is that then?

Obviously it has never been used. Like it took 5000 years to find the above ground entrance, I guess they figure it out sooner or later.

They should go down there and use ground radar to find the passage below. Also, they should soon find the tombs (of Adam, Eve and Abel) inside the Great Pyramid.

strange they cannot find an opening in the limestone - Adam and Eve huh? Well I see you are a fantasist.

Dreamer or keeping an open mind perhaps?

Wow 33 feet and what is the difference from the lake to Cairo which you seem to feel is the target area?

Again. You can't possibly have lived anywhere near a river and experienced annual floods and the odd ten and fifty year floods and so on, much less flash floods and stuff like dams breaking or stuff like tsunamis. The Nile when used as a weapon becomes Leviathan. The Red Dragon. The Mesopotamian rivers becomes it's sibling Tiamat. When Anu and Ellil caused the Flood (a similar event to what we are talking about), they turned the Mesopotamian rivers into the Kashushu weapon, and only Atrahasis (Noah) survived from the plains. Think about what would have happened if IS had broken that dam they were in control of for a while. Or the Hoover dam or Aswan? Elevation goes out the window as long as it goes down, it runs that direction.

I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

Why don't you make up a diagram of this mysterious arrangement taking into consideration the various elevations involved - I mean you have done that right?

I'm working on it

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

Why don't you make up a diagram of this mysterious arrangement taking into consideration the various elevations involved - I mean you have done that right?

Here you go. That's the diagram for you.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
I am not talking about a canal, but a valley, they naturally placed the lake such that it would be high enough and with a valley to lead the water to Gizeh. Never say never. There be dragons, mind you, in this case the bloody Leviathan.

Why don't you make up a diagram of this mysterious arrangement taking into consideration the various elevations involved - I mean you have done that right?

Here you go. That's the diagram for you.

Thanks

You do realize that you've place the lake in eastern Libya - what a couple hundred kilometers from the Nile valley??

a reply to: Hanslune

Yes, that should be about where Herodotus described it-- and it's a lot of water, besides lakes are often used as natural borders between nations. The excavated sand was sent into Libya together with water for irrigation. You are aware this is 2500 years ago, and the borders of Africa you see today were made by two guys with a straightedge and a case of brandy not too long ago?


ETA: Water was fed into the lake through a network of canals (obviously too small to be seen in the map) that would be open during flood season and closed at low Nile. This actually harnessed the Nile giving the kings of Egypt the power to control the water level to an extent, and as I postulate using it like a weapon. Looking at the terrain in the picture and given my placement of the lake is about right, this weapon was once used sometime after Herodot lived in the fifth century BC. Explaining how there are only ruins left of the civilisation of the gods today.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


OK then, where is it? I'm not sure we are talking about the same Lake. What you see today is basically a little pond with connected marsh land www.eosnap.com... If we are to believe Herodoth and others, back in Egypt's glory days, all of Egypt was green, deep into Libya and Sudan. At the time of Herodotus, it's perimeter was 3600 stades, that's quite a large lake compered to the silted pond you see today going by that name. For fun, do the math with those numbers: 3600 stades x 0.185 (km) = 666 km (sounds familiar?). Herodotus also speaks of two massive pyramids built in the geometrical middle of it, 600 feet high, half submerged. That'd be higher than the Great Pyramid, which is (or rather was) a mere 481 ft in comparison, so I am sort of sceptical to it, he claimed to have seen it, then again, he also saw the Tower of Babel. I am not sure what they call Lake Moeris today quite fits the description of Herodotus. But anyway we twist it, and given Lake Moeris is the lake we call by that name, it is today silted down storing more sand and dirt than water. Herodotus says they dug out the lake.

Herodotus lived about 2,000 years after the pyramid was built

Herodotus on Lake Moeris

This paper on the subject points out the errors he made. It can be read on line for free but you have to register

Here is a link to a free book on the same problem

But where are the two giant centre pyramids? I guess they were designed to fall in the event the northern wall was broken and the lake would be emptied into the valley.

Herodotus was reporting what he had been told, just like now people make stuff up, people made up stuff back then too.

It's elevation is more than enough to sustain the momentum of a body of water like the one in question. You've never lived near a river that floods, have you? Well I have lived with annual floods all my life, and you wouldn't believe what destruction rivers, brooks and canals can wield. Like you said yourself, go through the numbers again. And go rafting once, it'd do you good. And do a simulation in your head.

Ah you dodged the question on the elevation of the lake versus the elevation of Giza, lol. No go back and look that up its important......

Obviously it has never been used. Like it took 5000 years to find the above ground entrance, I guess they figure it out sooner or later.

The above ground entrance location was lost in antiquity but - no sign of any other one. Reminder the Pyramid is built on solid limestone if it has been tunneled into it would show up.

Dreamer or keeping an open mind perhaps?

What about tombs of Adam and Eve? If so what about the 'tombs' of those mythical beings elsewhere?

Adam?
Judaism: Midrash says Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron, West Bank
Sunni Islam: Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron, West Bank
Shia Islam: Imam Ali Mosque, Najaf, Iraq


Eve?
Judaism: Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron, West Bank
Islam: Tomb of Eve, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia


You really need to do the engineering calculations on this....just sayin'

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Hanslune

Yes, that should be about where Herodotus described it. The excavated sand was sent into Libya together with water for irrigation. You are aware this is 2500 years ago, and the borders of Africa you see today were made by two guys with a straightedge and a case of brandy not too long ago?

Quite, but we are using modern terminology to express location due to necessity:

Why did you put lake Moeris in eastern Libya - again hundreds of kilometers away from where it is located - you can see it on the map you used that 'goiter' (lol) to left of Nile short of the Delta.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


OK then, where is it? I'm not sure we are talking about the same Lake. What you see today is basically a little pond with connected marsh land www.eosnap.com... If we are to believe Herodoth and others, back in Egypt's glory days, all of Egypt was green, deep into Libya and Sudan. At the time of Herodotus, it's perimeter was 3600 stades, that's quite a large lake compered to the silted pond you see today going by that name. For fun, do the math with those numbers: 3600 stades x 0.185 (km) = 666 km (sounds familiar?). Herodotus also speaks of two massive pyramids built in the geometrical middle of it, 600 feet high, half submerged. That'd be higher than the Great Pyramid, which is (or rather was) a mere 481 ft in comparison, so I am sort of sceptical to it, he claimed to have seen it, then again, he also saw the Tower of Babel. I am not sure what they call Lake Moeris today quite fits the description of Herodotus. But anyway we twist it, and given Lake Moeris is the lake we call by that name, it is today silted down storing more sand and dirt than water. Herodotus says they dug out the lake.

Herodotus lived about 2,000 years after the pyramid was built

Yes, and the lake was intact at his time. Not any more. Like I said in my above post, it must have collapsed at some point leaving only ruins and a trail of silt.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Hanslune

Yes, that should be about where Herodotus described it. The excavated sand was sent into Libya together with water for irrigation. You are aware this is 2500 years ago, and the borders of Africa you see today were made by two guys with a straightedge and a case of brandy not too long ago?

Quite, but we are using modern terminology to express location due to necessity:

Why did you put lake Moeris in eastern Libya - again hundreds of kilometers away from where it is located - you can see it on the map you used that 'goiter' (lol) to left of Nile short of the Delta.

I give up. You just don't get it. What's called Lake Moeris today is a pond left from when the original lake was emptied sometimes after Herodotus lived and described what he saw. Go read the source itself, you don't need people explaining it. Herodotus Histories book II it's easily available. Read the damn thing, it's not like you have to read the whole book, you should know the verses by know. Herodot explains he witnessed it with his own eyes, and found the whole thing way way more impressive than anything he had seen in Egypt or Greece and back then all of the seven wonders stood solid, meaning this must be the eight wonder. The Dragon himself. Leviathan, complete with divine powers, hooks in the jaws number of the beast, and it's tongue like a raging flood.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: Hanslune

Yes, that should be about where Herodotus described it. The excavated sand was sent into Libya together with water for irrigation. You are aware this is 2500 years ago, and the borders of Africa you see today were made by two guys with a straightedge and a case of brandy not too long ago?

Quite, but we are using modern terminology to express location due to necessity:

Why did you put lake Moeris in eastern Libya - again hundreds of kilometers away from where it is located - you can see it on the map you used that 'goiter' (lol) to left of Nile short of the Delta.

My question is why would they construct something that would as easily be used against them as for the proposed method of protection. An invading force could simply break the earthworks then follow the devastating flood to attack the weakened Egyptians. Even if a warning made it there an army marched west for defense they would be marching in the path of the flood or marching around and losing time to reach the lake for defense. I have no doubt that the lake was artificially expanded to hold water as high in tthe landscape as possible. But agriculture irrigation metering it back out slowly and as necessary makes more sense than conjecture it was built to be the AE equivalent of a nuke.

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Looks like you have a plan. As you probably already know the expatriate life style becomes very addictive - probably because it's great!

Yeah it is pretty amazing. I wouldn't trade my travels for the world. And, there is a difference as you know between taking small vacations abroad, which is still great, and living in a culture and embedding oneself for a while. Most people can't either take the time off to go longer, don't have the money to take a big break in work, or have responsibilities/illness/family things that keep them from doing so. That's why to od it most of us have to work abroad and go full expat. Are you still living abroad?