Ukip and the BNP connection, by request.

link

An article which may clarify the question.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Ah, but they cleverly dodge the immigration from countries outside of the E.U and very rarely mention this, for fear of exposing their true colours.

No, they don't. It's clear for all to see on their own website and Farage has discussed it before, at length.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
I can only comment on what I have seen with my own eyes, every time Farage appears on T.V to talk about the immigration problem, he only uses the E.U immigrants to prey on the people's fears.

Because the media like to try and stick him to one subject and paint them as a single issue party with nothing else to offer. I recommend doing your own legwork, as you cannot trust most of the media and other parties to try and have an honest debate.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
What other countries are people arriving from in great numbers? All the scaremongering about Romania and Bulgaria didn't come to fruition, so where are they coming from?

The first largest group of residents is India, followed by Poland, then Pakistan, Ireland, Germany then Bangladesh.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
The figures I used are from the ONS for 2013, that's the latest information we have been provided with. If it goes against your own figures, please attach your research and explain.

I'm not disputing the numbers, just the manner in which you tried to sell them. Work related non-EU migration is down, with the largest source of those in 2013 being India, followed by the US and Australia - the Chinese only had 4,800 work related Visa's. During the same period, 155,000 EU nationals migrated here to live and work - this is more than the top ten non-EU sources for work visa's combined. This happens every year.

It's all here in this Government report

While people may not find a direct correlation between certain right wing parties and therefore be dismissive of others concerns on this subject there needs to be some serious consideration and thought given to the matter.

The question is this - out of all the parties out there, who has a platform similar to the BNP, NF, EDL, Britain First ignorant/racist mentality that has put on a veneer of being electable?

Its not Labour, Lib-Dems, the Tories or the Greens for sure.

What Farage has done is put himself in the positon of being right of the Tories in a bumbling sort of Boris Johnston style that never really actually says exactly what he means - deflecting issues very cleverly, and sugar coating some ideas as "reasonable" that may not be so should he ever be in a position to implement them.

Nick Griffin tried that when reforming the BNP but, frankly, everyone knew he was a facist from the get-go and it was never going to work.

Now, I can't say for sure that UKIP are "BNP Lite, the choice of the clever facist", and I most certainly cannot in any way shape or form say that anyone who votes for them is a facist

What I can say, however, is that anyone who berates the "political class" (as Farage calls the other parties), while clearly playing their game and actually selling to people that he's not a traditional politician (when he clearly is) and rides on the "protest" vote that includes a main policy of curbing immigration and getting us away from "johnny foreigner" at any cost - certainly is a little bit suspect.

And what I can say for sure is that UKIP are a party that may not be ultra right wing, but certainly has a proven history of mixing in those circles in European politics, and has the potential to be usurped from within by hardline right wing elements who have positioned themselves in a party with a "respectable" nature.

And thats why I'd never entertain voting for them, and why the sudden rise to prominence bothers me.

That pretty much sums up my exact opinion on the matter almost word for word.

I don't have evidence, I can not Prove it but I can speculate based on an understanding of how political partys work.

I too am very concerned about there rise in popularity and will be pushing hard for strategical voting to limit the amount of Mp's they will gain in the upcoming election.

I find it quite disturbing that as yet they remain quiet on many subjects and as a new party we have no history to base an opinion on

a reply to: neformore

a reply to: neformore

I think, nef, many have given it serious consideration and merely see attempts to relate them to the BNP as petty mudslinging, in the hope some sticks or that people run scared of being called a racist.

But people have had enough of that now, hence the surge. It's very arrogant to try and paint them as fringe or far right etc when they obviously command significant support from the electorate.

A reasonable point but I would ask your personal opinion on this question.

Are people turning to UKIP because they fully understand and believe in the policies and they will run the country in a way that will benifit the population or are they simply sick of Labour and Conservative lies, letdowns and failures and think that UKIP will be any different?


a reply to: stumason

a reply to: nonspecific

If I'm honest, probably both! There will be some who are simply tired of the same old two titting it up all the time, then there will be others who have taken the time to understand what UKIP are about. I don't think it is fair to assume that most people aren't level headed enough to have looked them up.

This article is quite interesting, Nigel Farage openly admits that he expects to pick up BNP votes in the Rotherham election but "Not the Hardcore ones."

Thats alright then as long as its the good BNP voters he's attracting.

The article is actually about the father of one of the Child abuse victims accusing UKIP of using the child abuse incident to gain political popularity and I personally think it's hard to deny but there a political party at the end of the day and thats what they do.

link

a reply to: nonspecific

Like it or not, but plenty of "ordinary" people voted for the BNP because of no where else to go - there wasn't the bridge there is now between the 3 main centre parties and the far-right, now there is. People can have right of centre views without being pushed out to the fringe, that is what UKIP are targeting, not the knuckle dragging skinheads who hate "brown people", but rather those who felt the other parties had nothing to offer.

a reply to: nonspecific

As for Rotherham, they make a valid point - Labour were in charge and, as mentioned in the report, none of those officials felt they could act out of fear of being branded a racist, which is precisely the environment Labour promoted then and still tries to push now.

I think to blame the labour party for what happened is pushing the point a little(No I do not support the labour party!)

To express my views on using it to gain political favour would violate terms and conditions, there is no excusing it in my opinion.

Have you ever actually read the BNP manifesto? It's pretty scary as it starts of quite reasonable. I was actually a little worried as I was thinking they actually had something.

But then it just got silly. I actually started laughing when they got to the pit about a penal colony on an island somewhere just off the Falkland Isles.

a reply to: stumason

Yes, UKIP are racist like the BNP.

They want their country to be populated, predominantly, by people of the same ethnocultural stock as themselves.

But then, what normal person doesn't?

Have skipped across from the thread that spawned thos one, I was going to reply to that one but in all honesty it's original premise is so preposterous there's little point.

I think what the rise of UKIP has highlighted is what a loaded topic immigration has been and continues to be.Another interesting thing it suggets is how politicians who are thought to have personality who are 'in touch with people' make the headlines more readily than those who don't. Also that we have a deaperate lack of individuals in the UK political scene these days.

Whether it's on Question Time or there are a couple of MPs on the radio expeessing their particular views on the topic of the day the one thing that is almost guaranteed is that if there is a UKIP representative there then accusations of racism and 'little briton' are going to be thrown.

What UKIP have done is to seriously spook the complacency felt by the three main parties in Westminster plus get the issue of immigration and the EU right at the centre of the debate which has often been mentioned in the past but that's about it.

There's something about having an opinion on immigration that is conflated with racism and always has been.As if thinking any restrictions on immigration is the thin edge of the wedge of biggotry and it's been easily shut down with that tactic for years.

Now, immigration is like every other political policy on the agenda.It has both positive AND negative consequences so it makes sense to try and manage it on a way that the benefits outweigh the costs.

Every occasion I've heard Farage or a member of UKIP speak about it they've been at pains to make it clear that there is no problem with the current policy of non-EU immigration and they fully agree support how we grant assylum to those in under threat abroad BUT our open door to the EU is a real problem.

That is UKIPs stated stance on immigration.They're openly opposed to our membership of the EU and want to us to leave.There will be members who have stronger views but there will be across the political. spectrum so to claim this makes them either racist or having closet racist leanings is problematic to say the least.

There are many potential problems that unchecked immigration brings and only a fool would deny that yet until recently the racist card was enough to make it too toxic for any serious politician to get go there. The one thing that UKIP have managed to di where nobody else has is make it a real issue,plus our membership of the EU, that Westminster can no longer afford to ignore despite branding them as just a bunch of cranks and biggots.Dismissing their policies and beliefs as thinly disguised racism is no longer working either.

Cameron only agreed to the Scottish Referendum because he felt he was on ground that was so safe he couldn't lose and his promise of an EU referendum in the next parliament was more to pacify his own back benchers but the debate has moved on, UKIP is wooing many tories who believe the party no longer represents them and the EU crisis has many people wondering if it is such a great thing to be part of.

In the the thread that bred this one there was strong suggestion that the whole anti UKIP approach that the BBC and broadsheets seem to take is carefully managed by the media to create an anti hero in Farage so us the witless sheep who live in the UK will see him as some kind of anti-establishment,Robin Hood type (or Adolf Shucklegruber according to that threads author) and he'll become a kind of saviour in our eyes... well of course except for those that little bit cleverer who see what the TPTB our up to and expose it by creating a thread.(Btw, I'm not referring to the OP of this thread).

In fact, the media attention that UKIP have got in the last year is as a result of loxal by-elections at the start of the year where they did far better than anyone expected. Not winning but by replacing the Lib Dems as the party of the protest vote. That wasn't a MSM created victory but probably a result of the LibDems being in government so being protested against for once along with the tories but also the tuition fees move u-turn may well have led a number of people to vote against the Lib Dems. In itself it probably wasn't that significant as the party in government often get hit in the by-elections but it freaked out the main 3 parties who certainly don't want a 4th player on the block. Cameron began to make UKIPlike concessions because he had visions of backbenchers jumping ship and all three leaders began to attack Farage more vocally giving him the exposure he couldn't have dared hope for.. as for the MSM they were bound to relish the whole thing as there was a real story to reports in the year before a general election for a change.

Best of all Farage has a distinct public image that the tabloids dream of. He's a British archetype in every sense down to the pint, smoking a fag who'd sooner be down the pub.He always 'says it like it is' in a similar fashion to Boris and whilenit may well be true that some of their candour is carefully managed they both still come out with enough of the hip to believable (Boris more so, can't imagine any PA, spin merchant saying remember and insult Liverpool they'll love you for it lol). In contrast to the career politicians like Cameron and Milliband who will always say the 'right and expected' people genuinely do warm towards the Farages and Boris Johnsons but claim that people like them simply because of that and the carefully created image the media has presented us withbis frankly insulting.

In know that much of that isn't exactly what the OP was claiming but I do think theres has been a reaction in all directions to UKIPs popularity. The tabloids love the image, the broadsheets paint them as a one trick pony and Westminster and mps from. all parties use the racist, biggot card as soon as they say anything remotely reasonable or sensible.

You saw exactly the same thing in Scotland recently, it was fine while the polls put the No vote in the lead but once the SNP hit the 40+ % ratings then the Westminster politicians began to paint independence as a form of nationalism.I'm Scottish and knew I'd vote no long before but if I'd been undecided then the reaction of Westminster and the whole 'better together' campaign (until big Gordy weighed in I was beginning to believe BTG was secretly working for Alex Salmond) was lame at best and at times almost shameful.Alex Salmond, although I've never liked him much, is a highly respected and skillful politician who Camerob couldn't afford to take on directly nor dismiss or denegrate too enthusiastically but I've little doubt he'd have treated him the way he has Farage if he thought he could..In the same way I expect he made his EU referendum pledge with the same misplaced confidence he had when he agreed to the Scottish one believing he couldn't possibly lose but.

In all honesty I don't think you can equate UKIP with the BNP because of a claim that the BNP like some of their policies. Surely then tye BNP have a lot in common with the SNP both being nationalist but only a fool would entertain such a notion so you can't really make that claim with UKIP. All the evidence, what UKIP states themselves plus the pains that so many take to paint them such, suggests that theres no racist or biggoted undercurrent in UKIP but rather the traditional response

a reply to: fastbob72... that every politician or party gets if they say anything against immigration.

Personally, I think UKIP may just do well enough to be the only choice form a coalition government next year but it's unlikely all the same. What is true though is they've shook the political scene much more than they or anyone else. could have predicted possible.

I really hope that the referendum in Scotland and the real tremors UKIP are causing in Westminster will shake the old guard out of their complacency and get more people interested in politics again.

The main 3 partys were happy that the public were disillusioned and unable to see anyway voting could ever change anything but the likes of Salmond and Farage have seriously spooked the people who live in the Westminster bubble and I hope it wakes up people south of the border the way it did North.UKIP have managed to shake the sense of security the rest have aassumed and took for granted and the whole 'mad, bad and racist' name they've been getting in the media shows just how shook up party politics has become in the UK. Long may it continue. !!!!

You might want to try that again, you commnts are missing.

a reply to: KROandSOTV

a reply to: nonspecific

I have broke ATS what is happening

I think it is because your views are fundamentally flawed and ATS is stopping you from expressing them to save you looking foolish.

Try changing your opinions and see if that works

a reply to: KROandSOTV

I will vote for UKIP at the next election. I am proud to say that and have done ever since the Conservatives and their little rich boys brought in the bedroom tax. We are living in a time when people are becoming poorer and poorer with each passing year. A large portion of people, people I like to call the X-Factor generation (this isn't a slight or an insult just read on) try to ignore the truths that they will most likely never own a home, never have a place where they can be free and at peace in their golden years. the name for the X-Factor generation comes from the fact that, we as a nation, (large portion of it) are watching reality tv shows (all scripted and fake. Nothing on the television is ever real) to blind ourselves from the truth.

We are being forgotten. While the rich continue to increase their wealth, whilst David Cameron, his party and even Labour fight it out promising different things and questioning each other they know that both have been and will always be held in a strangle hold of their party backers, the EU or even America (see Tony Blair). So why UKIP? A Chance.

We have had Labour and they screwed up. We have Conservatives and they are screwing us. Lib Dems are about as likely as a plastic bag staying on the ground during a tornado. We need to step away from the world, we need to put our needs and the needs of the BRITISH, and I mean all colours black, white, yellow, green, blue, whatever - As long as they are British citizens, first and before all other nations.

Let the people of the United Kingdom care for themselves and the rest of the world can come second. Its that simple. The EU is a scam, we can leave and join the World Trade Organization and still trade with the rest of the world and make our own laws. UKIP IS THE TOMORROW WE WANT AND THE FUTURE WE NEED. (I came up with that based on the Batman quote - Sent it in and got a thank you from UKIP)

originally posted by: neformore
While people may not find a direct correlation between certain right wing parties and therefore be dismissive of others concerns on this subject there needs to be some serious consideration and thought given to the matter.

The question is this - out of all the parties out there, who has a platform similar to the BNP, NF, EDL, Britain First ignorant/racist mentality that has put on a veneer of being electable?

Its not Labour, Lib-Dems, the Tories or the Greens for sure.

What Farage has done is put himself in the positon of being right of the Tories in a bumbling sort of Boris Johnston style that never really actually says exactly what he means - deflecting issues very cleverly, and sugar coating some ideas as "reasonable" that may not be so should he ever be in a position to implement them.

Nick Griffin tried that when reforming the BNP but, frankly, everyone knew he was a facist from the get-go and it was never going to work.

Now, I can't say for sure that UKIP are "BNP Lite, the choice of the clever facist", and I most certainly cannot in any way shape or form say that anyone who votes for them is a facist

What I can say, however, is that anyone who berates the "political class" (as Farage calls the other parties), while clearly playing their game and actually selling to people that he's not a traditional politician (when he clearly is) and rides on the "protest" vote that includes a main policy of curbing immigration and getting us away from "johnny foreigner" at any cost - certainly is a little bit suspect.

And what I can say for sure is that UKIP are a party that may not be ultra right wing, but certainly has a proven history of mixing in those circles in European politics, and has the potential to be usurped from within by hardline right wing elements who have positioned themselves in a party with a "respectable" nature.

And thats why I'd never entertain voting for them, and why the sudden rise to prominence bothers me.

What drivel.

UKIP are not Facist
UKIP re not RAcist
UKIP are not Bigoted

The sudden rise of 4.7million immigrants over 13yrs bothers me and countless others.

The Left went out of there way to invite immigrants remember Peter Mandleson.

And why did they do that? To rub the noses of the right wing about migrants.

What i suggest you do is look at UKIPs manifesto

regarding Fisheries Farming Defence Overseas aid TAX but no left wingers just look at the one Immigration.

Well mucka hopefully UKIPs rise will rub the noses of the socialist left , did i just say socialist the same word the the NAZIS used in their name !.

And finally i just want to have a vote to have the chance to get out of the EU and be free again.

No more ECHR