My Growing Love of Strange Firearms

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: projectvxn

A cool blend of old and new technology can be found in Mossberg's 464 SPX lever rifle found Here...

I don't own one, yet, but I love the futuristic look of a 100+ year old design...

I've been drooling over one of those for a while now...

But I'm waiting for one chambered in .357 Magnum and have been lobbying Mossberg directly.

I don't know WHAT this entire THREAD is about...

kr54556f13

I have recently hopped into the same boat as you.
It started when I came across the Doubletap pistol.
It comes in 9mm and you can buy a second barrel in .45 auto.
It's a double barrel over under. Half a trigger pull fires one, full trigger pulls the second one, or both at once.
The recoil for a 9mm is insane. ALMOST on par of a 44 mag over a period of 25 rounds. It's not a range gun.
More of a backup carry tiny handgun.
Another one I bought the crazy looking .22 cal Zip gun from USFA.
It's awesome looking and works great with CCI 40gr target ammo and the 10 round mag...
Otherwise, you'll end up with jams and misfeeds from the 25 round mags.
It's hilarious the looks you get when you pull it out at the range.
Check them out! Both are fairly cheap to begin with.
I got the .22 Zip gun for under $100 barely used.
Be prepared for issues with it if you buy it. It's just a great conversation piece.

Hope I'm not staying too far off topic here but I was wondering what all you gun collectors do with the weapons? Are they on display to look at and admire, are they to use at a shooting range, for self defense or killing animals?

I am from the UK so you don't come across many guns here which is why I'm curious as I know nothing about them!

a reply to: projectvxn

Thanks man... been looking at them at your recommendation.


The bomb of a thread... Thank you.

I might pick one up.

a reply to: Buttercup79

I use almost every 200 knifes I have... and try to practice with all 50 firearms... Its just a hobby.


the short of it is this... go to news.google.com search home invasion. None of those are me. And if it ever happens the search will be "Idiots dead trying to invade"

I and others here are normal guys... rather than buying vodka, a stupid large tv, or a stupid car... we buy things that we like that may protect us. Judge how you will...

a reply to: Buttercup79

Guns are simply a way of life for many folks in the states. It something that many Americans take for granted, because they are quite common... They are simply an available tool that we can use, as we see fit. We carry them for protection, we hunt with them, we practice with them. We pass them down to future generations.

There are some who collect them, as a hobby or as an investment. Guns very seldom depreciate, when kept it good condition. Some consider well-made specimens to be a works of art! There is a certain beauty to the craftsmanship and attention to detail, that goes into a finely tuned machine, such as some guns are. There are many, many facets to the world of small arms, as well. So much so, that there is a need for specialists, who focus their accumulation of related knowledge on a specific field or area, of firearms.

Bottom line, is that there is no one gun, that can do all of the above well. So, if you want to enjoy the many benefits of owning firearms, you would need at least a few of them to start off with. And, that usually leads to more and more. Like anything that you get into, you develop a passion, and as your knowledge increases, so does your interest...

I hope I have answered your questions well enough!

a reply to: Buttercup79

I was wondering what all you gun collectors do with the weapons?

I'm not a collector. My weapons all serve the purposes illustrated in the OP.

are they to use at a shooting range

I do my training at shooting ranges with all of my weapons. Fast reload drills, marksmanship, failure clearing procedures, trigger discipline, and other drills necessary in self defense situations whether at home or in street combat. I'm also a hunter so sometimes I will go to the range with the specific purpose of training marksmanship to ensure I hit when I squeeze the trigger.

for self defense or killing animals?

Both. I am not a trophy hunter. I have no use for a dead animals head on my wall. Even a small deer provides a huge amount of meat.

Sometimes 2 legged vermin who want to invade homes, rape, and murder need to be perforated. I understand you may not share that view, but I have a wife and little girl at home I am more interested in keeping alive than a home invader who wants to do God know what to them.

I am from the UK so you don't come across many guns here which is why I'm curious as I know nothing about them!

I am the ATS Forum Subject Matter Expert in the Weapons forum. I have two decades of experience in small arms, I am an armorer, a US soldier, and currently working on my gunsmithing skills. I am always willing to help spread knowledge of weapons, what they can and CANNOT do, and if I don't have the answer I can find it. Feel free to ask any questions you wish via U2U.

a reply to: projectvxn


Vx,

I share your love for the odd and unique!! In the last few years I've also very very much begun to gravitate to older firearms, especially if they're obscure or odd!

However while I own bolt actions I do not share the belief that they are intrinsically more reliable or better than semi automatic firearms! There is a caveat to this however. I do maintain the "standard" armory which is my grab if zombies, the brady campaign, or jehovah's witness' this way come kit.... (HAH)

In this kit which very much conforms to the rules of infantry combat (2 is 1, 1 is none. If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid. what do you feel when you line the enemy up in your sights and pull the trigger, RECOIL. et cetera ad nauseum) In this I maintain a his and hers set of the MSR and HD basics as well as a couple mossberg 22 caliber semi automatic rifles for fun and for gentle introduction of newcomers into the sport.

But these aren't my passion anymore.

What gets my blood pumping these days is stuff like the raging judge (So jealous.... It'd be worse if you had the russkie 12 gauge)

the Phillips and Rodgers Medusa revolver (A version of that built on a chiappa type setup for .410 all the way up to 460 rowland 45 win mag acp super and etc in a hard case or better yet the mummy style gun roll with a stock kit based off the Knight's armament suppressed revolver and a 2.75 3.5 5 7.5 9.5 16 and 20 inch interchangeable barrel set..... Heaven in a revolver)

the Remington Model 10 and 29 true breakdown pump shotgun. John Pedersen designed this gun.... It's neat, and unlike most breakdown shotguns the magazine tube and barrel assembly come out as one unit. It also bottom ejects which I like being a leftie and all. (You'll be seeing a version of this pop up eventually on whatever home build site is the home of the gifted at that time)

The FN-D / KG. M-37 BAR and the Darne machine gun in it's various guises.... Neat little boogers Both of them... It's really too bad the guy on weaponsguild took down his info on the FN-D plate build type receiver he did. He basically used the same concept the 1919 and Ma deuce machine gun receivers were built on to build an FN-D kit. In case you are wondering the FN-D version of the BAR has a pistol grip quick change barrel system and a couple other goodies. Highly Neat, and unfortunately pretty darn incompatible with the Ohio Ordnance Works Semi Auto Reciever kit.

And Finally on the old list..... The FNA-b43 SMG (Delayed blowback.... Nifty), The original belt fed Thompson, The Pasam Machine Pistol (AKA the cherry on top of the sex on a stick that is the broomhandle mauser), The LMG 25 Machine gun, and most importantly the FG-42!!

Newer guns that really catch my attention are anything bullpup especially if it's russian chinese or home built. (Oh speaking of russian anyone who wants an actual diagram of the internal workings of the TKB-022PM just PM me and I'll send it to you)

Every czech machine gun that springs from the zb-26/bren line most especially the VZ 52 LMG/GPMG (And you thought american gun designations were crazy ... check this out 3 of my favorite guns are the VZ-52, the VZ-52, and THE VZ-52!!! why did I list the same gun 3 times? I didn't One is a pistol, one's a battle rifle, and one's an LMG/GPMG!!! Yup 3 guns all VZ-52) and the UK 59.

The Vz 52 rifle and mas 49/56 are also rapidly becoming 2 more favorites of mine. Oh and the VZ-58.... I gotta say Czech pistols and rifles really are a cut above the rest. This is why it scares me and saddens me to see them starting down the path to the mediocre side in buying guns from companies like FN, Beretta, and HK. (before the hate mail starts or the U R TEH DUMB U LIKE FN TEH FN-D messages flood in... realize I'm a huge fan of their past work but the entire region other than poland and the czechs turned their brains in in the mid 50's for the most part... coincidentally right around when they "agreed" to 7.62 Nato standard...)

Oh yeah.... slightly off topic .... but 7.62 nato.... NOT A FULL POWER CARTRIDGE... Which is sad because even with a weaker cartridge our guns that fire it are by and large heavier less durable and up to an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more expensive than things like the PKM ROFL....

I'm a big fan of things like the PM-63 rak, 6.5x25 CBJ refits, Especially the B&T MP9 version..., and the model 11/14 machine pistol designed by Russel S. Robinson.... I'm also a Huge fan of the HK 21,22,23 E series as well as the non snafu'd early Cetme Ameli and the Amazing but pretty much totally unknown XM 234 248 which really should be our issue LMG to this day!

Unfortunately the brits let the DOD buy Robinson and he spent the next decade or two working on the cursed m73/219 .... (old tanker joke from that era do you know why the upgrade m73 is called the m219? because its 3 times as CRAP as the original...) Oh and the "NEW" .338 norma magnum belt fed currently being pimped.... Yeah Russel basically the same thing in 50 caliber.... in NINETEEN FORTY THREE!!!!

Now those of you that haven't pulled the rip cord with the TLR tag on it yet may wonder where this is going...

Basically I've come to the inescapable conclusion that the so called plateau we've reached in small arms tecnology only exists in the minds of the hide bound mediocre and uneducated. This should be obvious to a trained observer actually willing to take a hard and jaundiced look at the actual facts such as they are vis a vi the small arms technology world.

Those facts are... Guns are getting more expensive, heavier, and less durable at a disturbing rate! Are we able to place shots more Accurately and Precisely? Absolutely! However, this is IN SPITE OF the degradation in overall design quality of the firearms being produced! Considering the Advances in Materials science and machining its literally glaring obvious that it's the design that's the problem when guns firing in many ways much more consistent ammunition that in most cases is less energetic and smaller than the ammunition fired by the old guns people compare them to at straight across equivalence!

Technology hasn't plateaued.... instead we've reached several evolutionary deadends simultaneously with losing vast amounts of institutional knowledge, information, and lessons learned from the past! We're also reaping the consequences of literally 80 years of for the most part picking the wrong freaking gun at every key juncture for the entire 80 years too!

If anyone's interested I can provide a specific example from very recently that should anger anyone who hates waste and willful stupidity.

And before anyone is tempted to call me a monday morning quarterback please understand that I've been actiively engaged in working with firearms technology for a long time now, and am finally on the cusp of putting out SEVERAL projects any one of which I'd challenge most of the other posters on this site to outdo with UTTER confidence that they couldnt.

a reply to: roguetechie

Phillips and Rodgers Medusa

Of all you listed, this one is my favorite.

But with only 500 made in the world and most being outside of the US, it is unlikely that I will ever get my hands on one without coughing up a crap ton of money.

I have a better chance of getting a hold of a Ma.Te.Ba. Unica 6 Auto-revolver. For those interested:



This weapon was designed by Emilio Ghisoni

You can find a lot more about Ma.Te.Ba weapons and Emilio Ghisoni at www.matebafan.com...

Emilio Ghisoni designed the Chiappa Rhino. One of his last designs before he died in 2008.

a reply to: projectvxn


Lol I just about listed the mateba unica !!!

Oh and on the Medusa note, there's a thread on the high road about them. What makes it worth mentioning is Johnathan Phillips the engineer of the gun and IP owner actively participated. He posted a pic of his Medusa carbine... (love at first download!). The IP actually expires soon and he's amenable to restarting production. Also the untimely demise of Phillips and Rodgers was caused by colt screwing them into bankruptcy. Also vxn they made some conversion cylinders for a very common and affordable wheel gun. They're usually under 2k on gunbroker and are found using search string Phillips and Rodgers conversion cylinder. Also there's a Medusa up for sale now.

Sweat equity ghetto Mateba aka Maurice "the gangster of luv"

That should get your wheels turning....

HINT: The rhino could get a nose piercing.... (talk to Mr. Phillips and you could very easily end up with something truly revolutionary!)

As if posters here don't think I'm weird enough already... another firearm i'm currently putting time and money into is the mas49/56 series of rifles. My biggest regret is not having found them sooner before the bubba brigade savaged them. My plan is to do a couple variations with them. One with a custom folder in the style of bm-59 mixed with ac-556 side folding stock (think the gun from the A team!) And the other, well she's gonna be my AT&T GUN (Reach out and touch someone).


Finally VX please check your inbox.

Thanks for the replies :-)

I love my Shansei .45 cal mauser pistol.
AND I am putting an SPAS 12 stock on a Saiga 12,because I want to.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Cav i salute those choices lol.

And really for the UK poster this exchange should help you understand a large portion of the people of the gun.

We are thinkers, and lovers, men and women, Doctors and dog catchers, Nerds and Cool kids. Most of all though we're just plain PEOPLE!

The hate, lies, vitrriol, and utterly disgusting BIAS shown against and BIGOTRY towards gun owners is just as unfounded as the "science" of phrenology that so many touted as a reason to disregard the pain and anguish of this or that group of people in the 19th century....

Funny enough, take the cities with the strictest gun control out of American violent crime stats and we go from one of the most dangerous nations to the 4th SAFEST NATION ON EARTH!

Does that mean all gun owners are kind, responsible, well adjusted individuals? Most definitely not...

Violence resides in the dark places inside each of us. Whether a gun or a garden tool is used to perpetrate this violence on others, it's still horrible. And honestly you will find that on average the people of the gun are not violent people. What I think throws many people especially people on the outside looking in is that we do not equivocate or use flowery language when it comes to spinning hypothetical scenarios or when asked point blank whether we'd kill rather than be victimized.

This most likely stems from the fact that most gun owners are acutely aware that a firearm CAN kill... (No they're not designed to.... or if they are the OVERWHELMING majority of legal gun owners use them wrong.) Because we engage in a hobby that is so plainly capable of doing grievous harm or even taking a life, it encourages a level of thoughtfulness. I believe this thoughtfulness doesn't go away the second the person steps back off the firing line and puts their gun back in the case. Honestly I wish driving instructors were HALF as intense about teaching their charges as firearms instructors and range masters are! Honestly there's not a man portable projectile weapon I know of that packs the energy or sheer potential for mayhem as a 1993 Toyota Corrola.

And like a couple of other people have touched on for many of us guns are art.... We get the same pulse pounding when someone uncases a Howa made AR 18 at the range as car guys get when that all original shelby or 60's vintage italian sports car pulls in next to them at a car meetup.

I'll be the first to admit that I have an aversion to violence. I'll also be the first to admit I love guns! Especially military style firearms! Why? TBH I don't know or care why I find them as enchanting and beautiful as I do!

Nor should I EVER have to justify to anyone why I "want or need" x amount or y type of gun anymore than someone who likes art should justify why they like rodan more than picasso or why they should be "ALLOWED" to buy another art piece when they already have several. It's asinine to expect an art enthusiast to do these things and it's equally asinine to keep a gun enthusiast from enjoying their hobby without having to justify to someone else why or how many pieces they shoyld have in a collection.


If someone wants to try and say that's not a fair comparison.... I'll point out that you can substitute high performance vehicles for art and really ..... if you do that... there's MUCH more reason to question someone's purchase of a street legal car that can go 200 mph.... (Ask the Hogan family! Nick's dad owns several bonafide machine guns... I'd bet more even than the number of cars nick hogan owned at one point. Yet which was it that so irresponsibly killed someone?)

Even better yet, I'm not legally allowed to just set up targets in a busy residential or commercial area and blaze away at will. But My guess is there's a designated vehicle throughway within 100 meters of nearly every poster on the site! And mind you a vehicle even at posted speed limits is capable of killing 10 20 30 or more people in seconds!

Just remember this next time you hear people with only their own interests at heart extolling the rainbows and unicorns a disarmed populace would make a daily occurrence!

Also remember that Diane Feinstein whose practically the face of gun control in the US is on the record as saying She carried concealed back in the day. And that she wouldn't have thought twice about killing someone who wished her harm! This the woman who also openly admits that if she had the votes in the 90's she was in favor of universal confiscation!

This shouldn't really be a surprise though since her home state of california and it's scumsucking hypocrite legislators voted to exempt themselves from the sweeping gun control measures they so enthusiastically voted to subject the law abiding citizens of the state to!

These thngs and more need to be remembered whenver the subject of americans and guns come up.

If you like odd one-off firearms, take a look at the Impro Guns blog : homemadeguns.wordpress.com...

a reply to: TheDarkTurnip

Odd is one thing.

Monstrosities are entirely different.

Those are guns made by criminals and their reliability and usefulness are suspect for anything outside of stopgap measure for murder in a pinch.

my growing love of strange firearms

Okay .. I've posted this elsewhere before ... but I'll post it again here. I have a Glock 9 mil for when firepower is really needed but I would LOVE to own something like this antique knuckle duster ...



It would fit nicely under a lace pillow on my bed and it could shoot or stab an intruder, and I could use it like brass knuckles if I had to. (I don't have much 'punch' left in me these days but I would still love to own something like this). This is on my 'christmas wish list'. Maybe someday ...

a reply to: FlyersFan

Did some research on these.

Some of them are percussion, others designed later, like this one, are cartridge 22 or 32 shorts.

They have no barrel and they were designed for street muggers long ago. The issue they had was that the cylinder firing would burn your hands, and sometimes explode injuring the shooter.

Other times the bullet would strike the knife and send it folding toward the fingers of the shooter. Or the entire gun would fold backward toward the shooter, and with percussion firearms this was a real issue because every so often you'd get a cylinder cook off where all the rounds would fire after the first round was ignited. There's a reason this design was never popular.

originally posted by: projectvxn
There's a reason this design was never popular.

Yes but .. it's so darn CUTE! (Sorry, I'm a girl ya' know). Maybe someone could come up with a new modern design of this antique knuckle duster. I'd love one.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The knuckle duster was designed as a means to create a "Swiss Army Gun", so to speak.

The reason this design wasn't modernized is because it simply isn't necessary outside of novelty items.

I would recommend the North American Arms Black Widow, single action mini revolver.