UKIP in Britain - Manufacturing a new Hitler

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: eletheia

You make a very valid and realistic point.

Perhaps though legislation will be introduced to stop UK selling to EU after they leave? Only a suggestion. Like now, it's hard for my company to sell to China - we do do it though but it is discreetly done via a middle man.

Like I said if you have the right product at the right

price, You will do business, if it is on the black market or via a middle man

And again there are 27 countries in the EU perhaps its time to get out of

our 'comfort zone' and sell to some of the other 200 countries "world wide"

a reply to: eletheia

From what I've been hearing about the true state of finances in the EU and USA vs China and Russia then yes you're probably right. And from a sales point of view the Chinese view our products as class, like we do the German's products. Being forced to adapt to new markets would be good for the population, sink or swim, like the British farmers that have been f**ked over by the EU - those who have diversified have prospered. Wise words - I bet you can sell sand to the Arabs, water to fish, kids to Pakistanis, oh wait, I spotted a line back there.

a reply to: eletheia

It'd be hard to sell to a lot of places due to cost of labour being so different. You'd have to promote utmost quality as the reason for the relatively high prices. However my experience of UK manufacturing is that it's #e.

a reply to: and14263

Really? The EU forced you to frack your raft? And caused the flood scattering the used chemicals? How?
Also: Hitler was the fault of the people giving him power, it didn't just "happen", it was a collective mistake. Are you saying British people are starving and feel alienated by the rest of the world? How? Everybody nowadays is Anglophile, why would you feel the need to start a worldwide genocide?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: and14263

Really? The EU forced you to frack your raft? And caused the flood scattering the used chemicals? How?
Also: Hitler was the fault of the people giving him power, it didn't just "happen", it was a collective mistake. Are you saying British people are starving and feel alienated by the rest of the world? How? Everybody nowadays is Anglophile, why would you feel the need to start a worldwide genocide?

Sorry mate I think you've posted this in the wrong thread.

Hitler didn't just happen - EXACTLY what I'm saying.

Keep your head down pal, at least until you finish school.

a reply to: and14263

Dude....
Just read the title of your thread, just.... Wow- dude- wow.

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: eletheia

It'd be hard to sell to a lot of places due to cost of labour being so different. You'd have to promote utmost quality as the reason for the relatively high prices. However my experience of UK manufacturing is that it's #e.

Parts of India are dirt poor..... But its amazing how many young people

in rural areas that look like they don't have two coins to rub together have

mobiles and other technology.

We throw away much that could be reconditioned. Instead of us giving

money to poor countries we could make them technology savvy and self

sufficient?

Problems are only solutions in disguise ..... Where there's a will there's a way

I think the Brits have lost their will and their mojo?

a reply to: eletheia

You speak a lot of sense (means nothing coming from me).

A difference is that they have no restrictions, if they want to make bread and sell it on the street they can. We'd get arrested if we hadn't filled in the correct paper work or got a license. I think this is a small contributor as to why we have lost our mojo.

You're right again though, mojo... truly lacking. The positive drive to do something good. I guess hat thing you need to pull up from the depths on a monday morning going into a sales meeting - mojo.

Instead we watch tv, eat #, do nothing and our mojo dies.

There's depth in this conversation that addresses the sorry state of the youth of today - who are now middle aged with 3 kids.

And he who has no mojo will latch on to something which looks like a light at the end of the tunnel - but is in fact something taking advantage of the mojo-lacking man.

Good insight. I imagine you don't struggle to find work when you are out of a job.

Seems this thread very quickly descended into the typical "racist/bigot" crap and with it being ten pages long now, I can't reply to every stupid point made, otherwise I'd add another 10 pages, so I'll just make a summary and see what the replies are...

1. First of all, the accusation that UKIP are "full of racist/bigots/xenophobes" - whilst some party members (of all ranks) have said some stupid crap, the vast majority are normal folk with quite common points of view. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, because I can produce plenty of examples of Labour, Tory and even Lib Dems saying some really stupid crap too and, in some cases, far worse than anything said by a UKIP member
   
   
2. The assumptions made by some posters based on nothing more than what pictures we have in our Avatars are libellous. How judgemental and condescending is that? Rather than judging a person on what they say and do, you make assumptions on their character based on a picture. It's idiotic and speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.
   
   
3. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about what UKIP are and what they stand for - from people, it seems, who have not done one jot of their own legwork and just make assumptions based on what the opposition to UKIP say.
   
   
4. There was a claim that under the current Tory led Government, taxes have gone up. No, they haven't - they've actually been cut. The personal allowance has increased, as has the 40% threshold. NI has increases slightly, but my take home pay has increased even in years I had no pay rise, so the net result is a tax cut.
   
   
5. There were posters claiming that UKIP is nothing more than a front for "BNP" types, but when repeatedly challenged to back that up, the poster concerned refused to answer and instead claimed it OT and to start another thread. This is childish and petty behaviour that would make even the most slippery MP hang his head in shame. First off, it isn't OT, as that is the general topic of the thread - are UKIP fascists? Secondly, if you bring a point up and it is challenged, claiming it as OT and refusing to back up your claims damages your credibility and makes people not even bother to listen to anything else you have to say.
   
   
6. There are claims that the UK is like 1930's Germany. Not even close and this betrays a total lack of understanding about history. After WW1 and before Hitler swept to power, Germany was on it's knees,. was bankrupt and had hyperinflation that made their currency worthless. Bread rose in price to millions of deutschmarks! How is this remotely comparable to the UK today? If anything, we are the strongest performing economy in Europe right now. It's just hyperbole on the part of the OP to try and shore up his rather weak premise and not based in any reality.
   
   
7. There are claims - again by the OP - that British manufacturing is "#e". Really? Then why is there a global demand for the high end products we make, such as cars, aircraft components, heavy machinery, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and other high tech products? Again, betraying a total lack of knowledge.
   
   
8. There are also claims that UKIP will somehow damage democracy - again, this shows a total lack of any understanding of UKIP. In their preliminary manifesto, they actually plan to introduce a proper method of recall for MP's, not the watered down piece of crap being brought in by the current lot. They also plan to address the democratic deficit to do with how the UK's 4 nations are governed - if you don't know what this means, then you need to play catch up.
   
   
9. The Green party? Crazyewok was right to bring up some of their tree-hugger idea's and in the EU or not, these will destroy our economy more than anything UKIP ever plan to do. They'd have us all heating our homes with the power of our own farts if they could.
   
   
10. The assumption our economy would be damaged outside the EU is as theoretical as all the hoo-hah that was posted about Scotland before the referendum. Depending on how any exit was done, it might actually bring a benefit with the reduction in nonsensical but costly regulation along with the freedom to negotiate our own trade pacts with those countries of our choice. There is no reason why we could not have a free trade agreement with the EU after an exit - Norway does as do other nations and they get along just fine.
    

a reply to: nonspecific

It was aimed at the OP not you, so I will explain nothing

originally posted by: stumason
Seems this thread very quickly descended into the typical "racist/bigot" crap and with it being ten pages long now, I can't reply to every stupid point made, otherwise I'd add another 10 pages, so I'll just make a summary and see what the replies are...

1. First of all, the accusation that UKIP are "full of racist/bigots/xenophobes" - whilst some party members (of all ranks) have said some stupid crap, the vast majority are normal folk with quite common points of view. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, because I can produce plenty of examples of Labour, Tory and even Lib Dems saying some really stupid crap too and, in some cases, far worse than anything said by a UKIP member
   
   
2. The assumptions made by some posters based on nothing more than what pictures we have in our Avatars are libellous. How judgemental and condescending is that? Rather than judging a person on what they say and do, you make assumptions on their character based on a picture. It's idiotic and speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.
   
   
3. There seems to be a lot of misinformation about what UKIP are and what they stand for - from people, it seems, who have not done one jot of their own legwork and just make assumptions based on what the opposition to UKIP say.
   
   
4. There was a claim that under the current Tory led Government, taxes have gone up. No, they haven't - they've actually been cut. The personal allowance has increased, as has the 40% threshold. NI has increases slightly, but my take home pay has increased even in years I had no pay rise, so the net result is a tax cut.
   
   
5. There were posters claiming that UKIP is nothing more than a front for "BNP" types, but when repeatedly challenged to back that up, the poster concerned refused to answer and instead claimed it OT and to start another thread. This is childish and petty behaviour that would make even the most slippery MP hang his head in shame. First off, it isn't OT, as that is the general topic of the thread - are UKIP fascists? Secondly, if you bring a point up and it is challenged, claiming it as OT and refusing to back up your claims damages your credibility and makes people not even bother to listen to anything else you have to say.
   
   
6. There are claims that the UK is like 1930's Germany. Not even close and this betrays a total lack of understanding about history. After WW1 and before Hitler swept to power, Germany was on it's knees,. was bankrupt and had hyperinflation that made their currency worthless. Bread rose in price to millions of deutschmarks! How is this remotely comparable to the UK today? If anything, we are the strongest performing economy in Europe right now. It's just hyperbole on the part of the OP to try and shore up his rather weak premise and not based in any reality.
   
   
7. There are claims - again by the OP - that British manufacturing is "#e". Really? Then why is there a global demand for the high end products we make, such as cars, aircraft components, heavy machinery, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and other high tech products? Again, betraying a total lack of knowledge.
   
   
8. There are also claims that UKIP will somehow damage democracy - again, this shows a total lack of any understanding of UKIP. In their preliminary manifesto, they actually plan to introduce a proper method of recall for MP's, not the watered down piece of crap being brought in by the current lot. They also plan to address the democratic deficit to do with how the UK's 4 nations are governed - if you don't know what this means, then you need to play catch up.
   
   
9. The Green party? Crazyewok was right to bring up some of their tree-hugger idea's and in the EU or not, these will destroy our economy more than anything UKIP ever plan to do. They'd have us all heating our homes with the power of our own farts if they could.
   
   
10. The assumption our economy would be damaged outside the EU is as theoretical as all the hoo-hah that was posted about Scotland before the referendum. Depending on how any exit was done, it might actually bring a benefit with the reduction in nonsensical but costly regulation along with the freedom to negotiate our own trade pacts with those countries of our choice. There is no reason why we could not have a free trade agreement with the EU after an exit - Norway does as do other nations and they get along just fine.
    

Hi there, I think I may be number 5, I am happy to discuss on this thread. I never intended to duck out of the argument I just thought it would be better to start a new thread.

I was pretty drunk last night so sorry if I came across a little negative or argumental in an aggressive way the I appologise.

You first then, I still say that the views of UKIP are too right wing for me although on the surface they seem to make a lot of sense.

Are you aware of Britain First and if so what are your views?

Seems to me you will lose your freedoms either way: you can continue to allow immigration unabated and native Britons will be bred out of a majority or just maybe you will get a xenophobe bent on combatting it. You (the people) were set up to lose. I think there's still time left to curtail immigration and allow Britain to remain culturally and historically the same but only if it's enacted swiftly and strictly enforced.
The consequences of not doing so will result in Sharia law once a Muslim majority is established. Sadly, most would rather close their eyes and pretend their children won't be disinherited of their own country.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
Seems to me you will lose your freedoms either way: you can continue to allow immigration unabated and native Britons will be bred out of a majority or just maybe you will get a xenophobe bent on combatting it. You (the people) were set up to lose. I think there's still time left to curtail immigration and allow Britain to remain culturally and historically the same but only if it's enacted swiftly and strictly enforced.
The consequences of not doing so will result in Sharia law once a Muslim majority is established. Sadly, most would rather close their eyes and pretend their children won't be disinherited of their own country.

Is this a joke?

Do you honestly belive that sharia law will consume the United kingdom and that imigration is a new concept over here? I will be really carefull here as I see that your a mod and respect that but I fail to see how you feel this will happen. I would be interested in your reasoning and look forward to taking this further.

a reply to: nonspecific

Indeed you were number 5

Ok, me first - I think a good deal of what UKIP say does ring a chord, although I don't agree with all of it. I personally don't like their idea of scrapping HS2, for example and I think their policies on "green" energy are questionable. Yes, they may be "right", but describing them as "right wing" is wrong - they do represent what many in the country feel, which would make them centre-right.

I'm not 100% convinced by them, I might give them my vote next year or I may stick with the Conservatives - I'm not entirely convinced we should leave the EU although I do think it needs wholesale reform. If it is unwilling to change, then perhaps we should leave.

However, accusations they are racist aren't founded in the slightest - for example, they actually propose to extend the same rights and privileges that our home-born soldiers get to those recruited from overseas. Currently, even if you've served in the British forces and come from a Commonwealth country, there is no cast iron guarantee you will be allowed to stay in the UK and be granted the same rights. If they were racist, the surely by logical extension, the current crop in Parliament are even worse?

As for Britain First, I have heard of them but haven't really looked at them. Just checking out their website though doesn't fill me with much promise - it is not well laid out, has scant info and I do get a certain "BNP" vibe off some of the writing - one of the video's is titled "Jayda Fransen confronts lying Tories and Muslims" and add that to their PCC election leaflet for Rochester and it sends the wrong message. Not to mention there is a picture with her and her associates, who seem to like to "confront" lots of people of colour....

Some very well made points and this for the last time is why I will say this should be a seperate thread.

Ukip has quickly become the fourth party in the Uk and although I strongly disagree with you (and them) I would really enjoy bashing this out on a thread that does not call Nigel Farage the new Hitler.

I think we would both find that we have far more in common than we think and it could be a vey interesting thread.

I will start one and get all those shiney shiney flags

a reply to: stumason

originally posted by: stumason
Seems this thread very quickly descended into the typical "racist/bigot" crap and with it being ten pages long now, I can't reply to every stupid point made, otherwise I'd add another 10 pages, so I'll just make a summary and see what the replies are...

1. First of all, the accusation that UKIP are "full of racist/bigots/xenophobes" ...
   
   
2. The assumptions made by some posters based on nothing more than what pictures we have in our Avatars are libellous. How judgemental and condescending is that? Rather than judging a person on what they say and do, you make assumptions on their character based on a picture. It's idiotic and speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.
   
   
3. There are claims - again by the OP - that British manufacturing is "#e". Really? Then why is there a global demand for the high end products we make, such as cars, aircraft components, heavy machinery, chemicals, pharmaceuticals and other high tech products? Again, betraying a total lack of knowledge.
   

To make the assumptions I made I didn't just use the avatars as my information, I took a feel from their/yours knee jerk reaction/assertive replies to my OP.

It's probably widely agreed that assuming things based on a posters avatar AND their knee jerk/assertive reactions to my OP is wrong, especially as the assumptions I voiced about you and two others are pretty negative.

What you do know though is I am right, so right. And it does your head in.

Three people, even if I'm wrong about one of them (pretty certain I'm not) then that still means I'm right 66% of the time.

As for British manufacturing - the men/women have the skills. Training to BS EN 9606 is pretty much a minimum in big corps nowadays. However it's the work ethic. The ethos is to get stuff out quick to increase productivity, quality being a third or fourth on the list of importance. On the face of it quality is forefront in Brit engineering, all big places have ISO9001 logos banded around- but it means very little. Behind the logos are over worked undervalued people who inevitably under perform.

This is an extreme way of putting it, it's not universal across all manufacturing. But that's the general root of the thought I'm having.

I edited your post down by the way so this one wasn't real long.

a reply to: stumason


Just to loosen the tension an anagram of your name is

Am so nuts...

another thread

a reply to: nonspecific

Once Muslims become a majority I absolutely believe it will fundamentally change England, politically, culturally and economically. Perhaps it won't be Sharia law per se but you will be transformed in to something resembling every other majority Muslim nation. Democracy and Royalty are not things valued in Islam.
Can Britain afford to be wrong?

Eta: Being a Mod means nothing in terms of whether my opinion has value or not nor should it change your response. If I'm wrong I need to be called out like anyone else. Little secret: Mods are members first, staff second.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: nonspecific

Once Muslims become a majority I absolutely believe it will fundamentally change England, politically, culturally and economically. Perhaps it won't be Sharia law per se but you will be transformed in to something resembling every other majority Muslim nation. Democracy and Royalty are not things valued in Islam.
Can Britain afford to be wrong?

Eta: Being a Mod means nothing in terms of whether my opinion has value or not nor should it change your response. If I'm wrong I need to be called out like anyone else. Little secret: Mods are members first, staff second.

I was reffering to the fact that your time as a member and attitude put you in the position to be a mod and was respecting that.

Also having a mod in conversation is a bit like having a police car behind you whilst driving. You know damn well you have done nothing wrong but you still feel like you have to be on best behaviour

a reply to: nonspecific

Go for it, I'll join in....

originally posted by: and14263
To make the assumptions I made I didn't just use the avatars as my information, I took a feel from their/yours knee jerk reaction/assertive replies to my OP.

It's probably widely agreed that assuming things based on a posters avatar AND their knee jerk/assertive reactions to my OP is wrong, especially as the assumptions I voiced about you and two others are pretty negative.

Knee jerk? What sort of reaction did you expect when you typed a whole load of crap when it was obvious you didn't actually have a clue what UKIP stood for - you yourself admitted that you were taking your info from two MP's in opposition!

Bottom line is, you made wide ranging and incorrect assumption based on nothing for me, other posters and UKIP.

originally posted by: and14263
What you do know though is I am right, so right. And it does your head in.

Er, no. You couldn't be more wrong and you've done precious little to show why you are "right" while at the same time displaying many reasons why you are wrong.

originally posted by: and14263
Three people, even if I'm wrong about one of them (pretty certain I'm not) then that still means I'm right 66% of the time.

What are you gibbering about? Are you honestly still sticking to the line that your assumptions are correct? What an arrogant statement! This is a typical left-wing tactic - see someone with a Union Flag in their avatar, so throw accusations about them being a racist/bigot/xenophobe around.

You couldn't be further from the truth, chap.

I have no issue with anyone based on their race, religion or colour - check my posting history and you will actually see I have defended Muslims against the more xenophobic members here and I know it is cliche, but I do genuinely have friends who are Gay, who are black and who come from other countries. I have no problem with immigration, I work with a chap from Ghana, another from Malta, another from the Ukraine and all have valuable skills which are an asset to this nation. This is the exact same position for UKIP - immigration is fine if it is controlled and in interests of the country by filling skill gaps.

originally posted by: and14263
As for British manufacturing - the men/women have the skills. Training to BS EN 9606 is pretty much a minimum in big corps nowadays. However it's the work ethic. The ethos is to get stuff out quick to increase productivity, quality being a third or fourth on the list of importance. On the face of it quality is forefront in Brit engineering, all big places have ISO9001 logos banded around- but it means very little. Behind the logos are over worked undervalued people who inevitably under perform.

Another crass generalisation based on nothing. In high end engineering, we're world leaders and I know people who work for some of these firms and they take great pride in what they do. My own employer, while being focussed on profitability, still insists on getting it right first time, not pushing it out regardless. Doing otherwise does brand damage which is far more costly than anything else in the long run.

originally posted by: and14263
This is an extreme way of putting it, it's not universal across all manufacturing. But that's the general root of the thought I'm having.

Key word here - thought. Your thoughts do not translate into fact. What evidence do you have to back up your position? Are you in engineering? Have you worked for Rolls Royce, or Jaguar, or BAe, or General Dynamics, or Thales, or JCB or any of the other big, high end manufacturers or technology companies in this country?