Graphic Video Released in “Firing Squad” Style Police Killing of Milton Hall

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Wow great post, really touched on all levels here.
Now we await the snipped reply.

I think cops need training on what rushing is and what walking in a direction is.
Also training that does not end with "if at any time you are even remotely in fear for your life, just waste the mofo"

www.youtube.com...

How we do it Canada

a reply to: Retikx

Well tbh that was a little brutal too, could have easily killed him ramming him into that pole.
What was impressive is cops able to take steps backwards away from the guy just walking and not firing.

a reply to: Retikx

Simple and effective while there may be some risk of killing its much less likely and the all frail cop is protected by a car but I guess that may lead to an accidental death and none wants that ...

a reply to: BASSPLYR

It's clear the man had a knife in his hands. It's not clear that he intended to use the knife to assault the police.

Assault or attack? The guys aggressive "fighting" stance and his threats clearly demonstrated his intent was not to surrender and if the police tried to stop him, which they had the right to do, he would assault them.

You could say that it did not appear the guy's intent was to attack the police with the knife right up until he started approaching the officers on the left. If the guy is in a fighting stance while displaying a knife, makes threats towards you and then begins to close the distance, it is implied that his intention is now to attack.

The guy was not completely surrounded. He had an avenue to walk away from the officers. He chose to stop walking away and start walking towards the officers on the left. If he had the option to walk away from the officers and chose to walk towards them, what intention is implied?

I see , clearly I may add, that the guy is surrounded by the police, because he is brandishing a knife. THe police do not maintain their line on him, in fact it's obvious in the video they start advancing momentarily on him. The police dog trots up a few feet towards him and he quickly retreats a few steps to get AWAY from the dog. The dog is pulled back, he sees this and walks back to his original position. No charging, no deadly intent.

First, the guy was not surrounded. He had a clear option to retreat away from the police towards the right and away from the camera. He could have chose to walk in that direction and did for a few steps. The police did not shoot him while he was walking away for the few steps. I am sure the police would have followed if he walked away but it is clear did not shoot him while doing so. They started shooting when his direction turned from walking away a few steps to walking towards a few steps.

If he had an avenue of retreat, which the officers showed they would not shoot him if he took, why would he then begin to take a few steps towards the officers on the left? What I am saying is that it is reasonable for the officers to assume his intent was to start closing the distance between himself and the officers on the left. If he has an avenue to retreat, and instead chooses to start moving towards the officers it is reasonable to assume he is done with the standoff and is going to attempt to end it one way or another.

their nerves got to them and open up on the guy, showing a lack of discipline. A lack of cool under pressure. And maybe a failure in training. You will say No no the training is perfect that's what they are supposed to do. And I believe they were trained to just say F it and open up at the slightest provocation. To me that's bad training. Will it save their lives. Sure. I can shoot people all day posing minimal threats to me and save my skin sure. It will work for me to. I'll never get injured with that mentality either. Unfortunately I have to be an adult and think things through hand use better judgment or I would be in living in a brand new, very secure apartment with my new roommate who I would have to repeat to each night "No Tyrone!!!! I'm Bi-Lin-Gual it doesn't mean what you think it means!!!!!"

No, I would say they showed an appropriate amount of restraint. They did not just shoot him at the first glimpse of a knife. They did not shoot him as he stood there. The appropriate amount of restraint only went as far as when the guy started closing the distance between himself and the officers on the left.

You are absolutely downplaying the threat this man, armed with a knife, posed to another human being. A knife is a deadly weapon. In the hands of a violent and mentally deranged individual, a knife is a threat that cannot be downplayed by someone who actually has to deal with this guy.

Also, lets talk about crappy firearm discipline. They shoot once, twice, the guy drops the knife sticks his hands up doesn't advance. Nope too late kiddo we get to kill you now legally right or wrong. shoot three times, four times, five times. six times. seven times. eight times. He's now a slack sack on the ground. Shoots 9 times. shoots ten times. I would shoot more but I ran out of ammo. That's piss poor firearm discipline. The military doesn't teach it like that. Most gun instructors don't teach it like that. And I could spend a day with a novice at the range and they would leave with better discipline and judgment then that. Rational people in that situation would not have acted like the police did in this instance.. That's why ration people are upset about this incident.

Any person who knows anything about using a firearm to defend his or her self knows that you fire until the threat is neutralized.

It is very easy for you to assume the guy would have dropped the knife after two or three shots. There are incidents where a person keeps advancing even after being shot. If we have learned anything from the "21 foot rule" it is that a person with a knife can close 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. When you start adding in pauses to assess the situation, you can see that a determined person who wants to stab you will use these pauses to their advantage.

You keep saying that training at the range is the same as actually being put into a shooting situation. There is no way that you can recreate the same physiological changes that happen under a highly stressful "fight or flight" response. Sure, when you put time limits on draw and fire drills or even use sim-rounds and instructors who try to get you, it still does not fully recreate the experience because in your mind, you know you will be walking away after the drill.

Yes, training may help diminish the effects of "fight or flight" on the body but you can never completely eliminate them. It is impossible.

Anyone who thinks I am making things up can read this p aper. If you don't trust that source, there are countless more. All of these effects can add up and cause different results in different people. Again, training attempts to minimize these effects but even the most highly trained Special Forces, who receive years and years of constant and intensive training, still have these effects when in a stressful situation. These years and years of training are way more than any patrol officer or rifleman in the military receives.

Even the basic infantryman in the military does not hit everything he shoots at. That's why they train things like "covering fire," "fire and maneuver" and "superior volume of fire." I am no expert on military tactics but the basic premise of these seems to be to have one element suppress the enemy while another element maneuvers to close with and destroy the enemy from a more advantageous position.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Well tbh that was a little brutal too, could have easily killed him ramming him into that pole.
What was impressive is cops able to take steps backwards away from the guy just walking and not firing.

Can we see the mentality here?

If doesn't matter what is done, there is always a second guess or claim of brutality.

Let me ask you this. How brutal is stabbing or slashing someone with a knife?

Why is the man's actions, who is threatening people with a knife, totally excused?

Obviously a cup of coffee is worth more than a homeless persons life in the US wonder how many shots would of been fired if he stole a donut as well.

a reply to: areyouserious2010

His actions are not excused, don't get that twisted.
Just that what he did, does not call for the death of him.
He obviously needed help, pumping enough lead into him that you can write a paper isn't the help he needed.

The way the Canadian police was 100% better then what these cops did, cause the man didn't get shot 40+ times.
I was just saying that the outcome of what happened still could of been bad, but it wasn't so all is well.
Can't say the same about the issue at hand.

And yes stabbing can be brutal, but I don't use hypothetical situations to justify deaths.

a reply to: Sremmos80

His actions are not excused, don't get that twisted.

When you only question the actions of the police, who are reacting to the man with the knife, and not question the actions of the man with the knife, there is something wrong.

And yes stabbing can be brutal, but I don't use hypothetical situations to justify deaths.

Hypothetical? If a person threatens to shoot you and starts raising a firearm in your direction, is it only hypothetical that they will shoot you? If you are armed with a weapon are you going to use it to defend yourself? Are you willing to bet your life on the fact that they are bluffing?

a reply to: khnum

Obviously a cup of coffee is worth more than a homeless persons life in the US wonder how many shots would of been fired if he stole a donut as well.

If they guy would have peacefully dealt with the situation, instead of deciding to pull out a knife and threaten the police, the incident could have ended completely differently. It could have even ended with the police and coffee shop letting him off with a warning or summons to appear in court later. It did not end this way only because the guy decided to pull out a knife and threaten the police.

The police had every right to stop the guy based on the initial call from the business.

a reply to: Another_Nut

There is no such creature as a good cop. 6 cops and where was the "one" good cop to say "STOP" this is a mistake! Not one out of 6. Same situation with the homeless individual out in Albuquerque NM. a few months ago. They murdered him too. I have seen too many videos like this incident. One shot and every cop has to get into the action. Wild animals are treated more humanely than the police treat their fellow human beings. No tazer used, no capture net used, not even a tranquilizer dart that would be used on a nuisance wild animal. "There is no such creature as a good cop"...... They are in the business for the thrill and action of the job and eagerly await the time they can pull their weapon and experience the thrill of the kill......

a reply to: areyouserious2010

Cause the man was mentally unstable and the cops are suppose to be in sound mind so yes they and their actions are going to be held to a higher standard and scrutinized much more then the man that was killed.
Cops are there to put the man in front of a judge so he can answer to his actions, not to kill people over them.

And yes it is entirely hypothetical until the action actually takes place. You can say what if he charged, what if he did this, what if he did that, doesn't mean that was intentions.
But at the end of the day, only one side actually did something.
Guess seconding guess the cops actual actions isn't as bad as assuming the actions of another....
And I'm done if you don't respond to this post as a whole, had my fair share of snipping matches and now refuse to partake

a reply to: areyouserious2010

No apologies your country cant liberate a can of beans without blowing the living crap out of it first,this guy would of probably survived with Canadian or Australian police.

originally posted by: mindseye1609
a reply to: Sremmos80

Within 21 feet even if your extremely well trained with a firearm someone with only minimal training/drive with a knife has the advantage.

I thought my CPL instructor was high when he explained that but its actually called "the tueller drill" and there's lots of videos of people proving it.


With that said.... This situation has a little background that's getting glossed over. This guy was a regular around town with the police and they had run ins both positive and negative with him many times in the past. It's unclear to me what the immediate reaction to prepare for a negative contact was caused by but I've heard a couple different stories, lots of threats involved basically.

Lessons learned... Sh!t talking carries a lot more weight if your weilding a knife.

From what I've understood, seen, and tested... the 21 foot rule is only if your gun is holstered. If you already have your gun drawn, like the Saginaw police did, then 21 feet isn't that dangerous of a distance.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Cause the man was mentally unstable and the cops are suppose to be in sound mind so yes they and their actions are going to be held to a higher standard and scrutinized much more then the man that was killed.

The police are reacting to the actions of the guy with the knife. If the guy with the knife never put himself in this position, we wouldn't have 12 pages of argument afterwards because it never would have happened.

I refuse to accept your attempt to excuse the man's actions. Apparently, we are to accept knife wielding individuals walking around in public and find no fault with them. If we, and the police leave them along, they will leave us alone. I can't even think of the last time I heard of someone murdering someone else with a knife.

No! I do not accept mentally disturbed individuals walking around in public with me or my family anywhere near. This is why the police are called to confront people like this.

Cops are there to put the man in front of a judge so he can answer to his actions, not to kill people over them.

That only goes so far. If a person is not willing to be arrested and go in front of a Judge, what then? What if that person is willing to use deadly force to resist the police, with wanton and willful disregard for their safety, who are only trying to take him in front of a Judge? What then?

You act as if the police shot him as some sort of punishment for his actions. That is not why they shot him. They shot him in self defense. They shot him because they told him to put the knife down so he could be arrested and taken before a Judge and he refused and started approaching the officers.

And yes it is entirely hypothetical until the action actually takes place. You can say what if he charged, what if he did this, what if he did that, doesn't mean that was intentions.

Really? You cannot make a guess as to someone's intent to do something unless they do it? With the indicators I described to you, you do not think it would be reasonable to anticipate that the person's next action would be to shoot you?

If some sort of ball is flying directly at your face, do you not take action to stop said ball because it has not hit your face yet? I mean, how can we anticipate the ball will hit you in the face until it actually does?

We are almost getting into a philosophy discussion here but I reject the notion that one cannot predict a likely outcome after analyzing certain indicating actions.

One does not have to have clairvoyant knowledge of the future to predict likely future events.

a reply to: khnum

No apologies your country cant liberate a can of beans without blowing the living crap out of it first,this guy would of probably survived with Canadian or Australian police.

Ok? There are millions upon millions of people who aren't speaking German right now because the US decided to blow the living crap out of stuff and liberate a few people.

Let's try to stay on topic.

I missed your argument.

Did you have one?

a reply to: WCmutant

Read through the 11 pages if thread. The threat of 21 feet doesn't diminish if your gun isn't holstered by that much. I'm personally a pretty good shot 85% or so to center mass from 21 feet no problem... At the range.. I've been an upland grouse hunter my whole life and that's the only thing I can even begin to relate to a charging attacker next to maybe a charging bear or hog. When a grouse flies... So does your mind... In a tizzy of sound and commotion I've missed more straight on shots WITH A SHOTGUN then I've made. and watched many wing shooters much more skilled then I miss repeatedly as well.

When the stress is on its a whole new ball game. At my CPL qualifying I didn't miss a single round. Me and 2 others in the class went perfect... I still don't trust myself to drop a charging target from 21 feet. It's to close to even think about. 3 steps is all it takes for a 6 foot man to close nearly 21 feet. 3 steps and a reach... Ouch.


Basically at bare minimum the 21 foot rule establishes that it takes 1.5 seconds on average to cover 21 feet when attacking... 1.5 seconds is an instant when its life and death.

a reply to: areyouserious2010

Man, just what video did you watch. It certainly was not the same video in the original post. The mentally handicapped individual was frightened and defending himself from the dog when the cops backed up into a line and opened fire on him. Get this! The only approach cops know is force..... They all backed up and lined up on him from 20 feet away. The guy was just standing there in a crouched position when "They murdered the guy, pure and simple". You must be a cop!

a reply to: areyouserious2010

Oh man if you call what he did a fighting stance then you should just admit now that you know very little about what a fighting stance is and have just shown your hand that you really don't know f all about this whole dealing with aggressive people thing. Cop or not.

His whole body language tells me that this is a scared, confused person, who can be dealt with in a more mature less short sighted reactionary response. Could he have charged like you're ENTIRE HYPOTHESIS for explaining their poorly thought out response to this situation resides on. Sure. but HE DIDN'T. That's evident in the video. He clearly didn't. SO EVERYTHING you keep bringing up is IRRELEVANT. That wasn't what was going on there. Rational people see this. Bet talking to the guy and trying to use well thought out dialogue with him could have lessened the tension. A professional would have tried to disarm the tension first. Hard to believe but Calm EXPERIENCED dialogue works even on crazy people too. You just have to think for a millisecond. You know like a normal socially developed adult would think to do.

Or, I know, do what every one who is TRAINED to understand the concept of range for the weapon they are choosing to use and actually maintain that range. Boxers do this. Wrestlers do this. Properly train GUN MEN do this too. Its 101. It's all about understanding the tools at your disposal. But they threw out their training and didn't keep their proper range for their safety. they advanced on him. That right there tells me they had already lost their proper baring on the situation. They were already out of control the second they broke that discipline and broke their line.

I know this is hard to accept but they really did have all the time in the world there. Don't crowd a scared ANYTHING. It's common knowledge if your not an idiot. Back off two whole feet and watch a world of difference. Take your time. He's not going anywhere. And be an adult. It's a real world out there. You can't just ram rod your way through the flow of nature in life. The cops there literally "Copped out" they literally went "F#&*$ it it's too hard, just like my SAT test!! Lets shoot him and call it a day, besides we ain't ready for this S#&%$!!! Shoot him as soon as we can!! Whoo I'm getting jittery!" You actually need to learn to be dynamic in a situation such as this as a professional would. You know like someone trained and employed for these sort of situations is EXPECTED to be by their employers...THATS US THE CITIZENS.

The enlightened could even say "be like water." Or as David Lee Roth would tell you. "Roll-ol-ol with the punches and get to whats re-al." One size does not fit all. A BS trained response is not appropriate for every situation. That's clear this is what this was. A BS trained response. The training must improve grasshopper. That's the message civilians are putting forth. You know, what "we the people" are thinking...right now.

I, yes I, and plenty of other people could have taken any one of the cops "nightsticks" and calmly walked up to the guy and simply whacked the stick on his hand. The tip of the stick is somewhere 5 feet in front of me. I think I'll make it. Hey you, YES YOU! do this experiment at home. Take a solid 2 foot long hardened stick and tap the back of your hand with it. Hurts like hell. Damn thats S#*$@ is delicate!!! Trust me it takes a long time of exposure to getting sticks whacked on your hands to resist not immediately dropping ANYTHING that is in your hand, cracked out, pcp'd out or not. . You'll be lucky if your hand isn't shattered. Again I would say "it's simple Physics" but what are the odds. Either way I would have a reasonable degree of safety and comfort. Especially since another guy is standing 18 inches away from with me with a what?... a taser gun. You telling me 99% of the time a taser doesn't Completely F up a old 145 lb mans day. combined with a dude whacking his hand with a stick, combined with a dog and a bunch of other dudes with tasers. I'm sure I'd be OK. And don't bring up that "21 foot rule thing again" Remember I know a hell of a lot more about how blades work then you. Remember the whole half a lifetime practicing blade work thing. I know it's convenient to forget. But it really does mean that in this situation when I say there are better ways to deal with a scared confused guy with a knife. there actually is and what they did wasn't it.

You keep taking this situation out of context. If every day people can Immediately think up of more adult and reasonable way to deal with the exact same situation, then that shows that there is a PROBLEM with the way these cops dealt with this situation.

This was not a life or death situation. The guy did NOT make any hostile charge toward the guy. He was NOT in a fighting stance.

a reply to: areyouserious2010

So lets just assume everyone is going to bull rush as soon as they take 2 steps.


Simple request for you to not snip, good day.