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Atheism destroyed.

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posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 03:42 AM
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originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
Jesus did even better than just speaking against slavery. He said doing unto others as you would have them do to you, is not just a good idea but is God's Law and what his true prophets taught:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:12

Fair enough. I do agree that Jesus said many things that should be taken to heart and this is one of them.




posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 03:58 AM
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a reply to: smithjustinb




Yeah, but just because you hold a different world view, doesn't mean I can't cite mine as proof that yours is wrong, does it?


The quote below is what our conversation is about:




Actually you can't prove that statement if you presuppose the first. If memory is just chemical reactions then all your memories could be the product of a chemical reaction and not an actual event that occurred in the past.



Only your world view presupposes that humans are flesh and chemical, and therefore only your world view believes memory to be just chemical reactions. My world view presupposes that humans are made in the image of God and can therefore know with certainty that memory works and that the past will be life the future because the God of the universe sustains the creation.(Hebrews 1:3 Colossians 1:17)

Why would your world view constitute as proof of anything? Just because you believe that memory is just chemicals and nothing more doesn't mean that is the truth, its just what you take on faith.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:05 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
You need to look at the Bible in its own context. The slavery the Bible talks about is something people willingly entered into as a form of paying off debt. Never dones the Bible condone slavery it only puts guidelines on it, and Jephta's daughter wasn't sacrificed but nice try.


I like how you barely addressed my post and only chose two points to look at.

I do agree that a lot of the slavery was debt bondage (is that necessarily better?) but not all of it was. Slavery is still slavery though.
en.wikipedia.org...

Jephtah made a deal with God. If God delivers his enemies into his hands he will sacrifice the first thing that passes through his doorway when he returns home. And that thing, was his daughter.



Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon. And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands. And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon. And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
Judges 11:29-40

edit on 29-10-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:08 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




its just what you take on faith.


Your entire view is based on faith. It is a case of pot meet kettle.

Face it, your entire view is just a belief, nothing more.

The only difference here is that your belief is the only one that you think matters and the rest of us are going to hell to spend eternity in fire and damnation.

The is religious belief in a nutshell.

Do as I do or suffer!

I don't like your version of God! That is all it is ... your version ... and your version is a corrupt one ... corrupted my man chasing a greed for Power and Wealth

P



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:11 AM
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originally posted by: pheonix358
The only difference here is that your belief is the only one that you think matters and the rest of us are going to hell to spend eternity in fire and damnation.


A myth I pointed out he has yet to acknowledge.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:15 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




I do agree that a lot of the slavery was debt bondage (is that necessarily better?) but not all of it was.


Slavery in the Bible is only debt-bondage.

“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death."

And there you have the Bible condemning the type of Slavery that you are thinking about.



“Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”


" And she was a virgin."

She became a celibate for life. She wasn't sacrificed. A human sacrifice is unpleasing to God see Cain and Abel.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:18 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




A myth I pointed out he has yet to acknowledge.


He can't acknowledge it!

It is pivotal to his entire belief system.

That is what doctrine is all about.

The process of learning a doctrine is called indoctrination. He has been indoctrinated.

"True Believers" will never acknowledge anything you tell them nor will they answer the difficult questions as has been proven here in this thread. He can't, or his whole belief structure will come tumbling down.

What threads like this do is to give potent ammunition to the unbelievers to use at will. These threads do not act to spread the WORD, they destroy it.

He is not spreading the WORD. As his belief system stands, he is aiding SATAN to destroy the WORD.

But, he will never see that truth either, or once again, his whole belief system does a crash and burn.

P

edit on 29/10/2014 by pheonix358 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:19 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: smithjustinb

Why would your world view constitute as proof of anything? Just because you believe that memory is just chemicals and nothing more doesn't mean that is the truth, its just what you take on faith.


My world view requires proof. Yours doesn't. So, you're basing your world view on something that has no proof to support it. But, somehow, you believe you've managed to turn this around on me and say I have no reason for believing in what I believe? My world view isn't just what I take on faith. Its supported by evidence. You keep creating these false premises to argue from.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:22 AM
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a reply to: pheonix358




Your entire view is based on faith. It is a case of pot meet kettle.


Everyones world view is based on faith.




Face it, your entire view is just a belief, nothing more.


My view is just a belief yes, but it logical and coherent. I have no problem accepting that I must have some degree of faith, it is the atheist who have that problem.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:28 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: pheonix358
Face it, your entire view is just a belief, nothing more.


My view is just a belief yes, but it logical and coherent. I have no problem accepting that I must have some degree of faith, it is the atheist who have that problem.


Its not logical to believe in something that you have never seen or that no one else can see unless they believe in it. It is logical to believe in something that math (1+1=2) [every time] can predict. So, you're just wrong. You think you can debunk atheism, but you're approaching it from an already flawed belief- that believing in something that can't be seen is more logical than believing in something that can.

It may be a belief that the universe is all there is, but its a belief based on no evidence existing to refute it. So its a more sane thing to believe. It is insane to, right off the bat, believe in something you have never seen outside of your own mind.
edit on 29-10-2014 by smithjustinb because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:29 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer




A myth I pointed out he has yet to acknowledge.


First I didn't respond because I never said anything about hellfire or anyone burning forever. All I did was post a plethora of verses so that you could read how the Bible describes hell from the Bible and not have to take it from me. I agree with pretty much everything you said about Hell. As for the descriptions of fire in the OT and NT they could be metaphors describing the emotional pain that comes with being completely separated from God for eternity.

Honestly, I don't really care what Hell is like, the point is there is a place of separation from God, its eternal, and eternal separation is unpleasant.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:34 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Let's go step by step and look at what the Bible actually says:

1. And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

2. And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him

3. My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth

4. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed

She was sacrificed a virgin. That's why it became a custom for the daughters of Israel to lament her four days a year. What exactly are they lamenting if she wasn't sacrificed? Nothing suggests she lived and became celibate.

As for the slavery thing that verse you presented warns against stealing (kidnapping) a person and selling him into slavery. In fact you could be born into slavery as well, or passed on down the family line as inheritable property. I'm sure the captive virgins made to be wives, from any number of the wars were stuck in debt-bondage? Debt bondage or not slavery is slavery. While some may have entered into it willingly not everyone did. How about those guidelines?



If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Anyway, if you don't want to address my posts in full, no problem. That is your choice and I certainly won't be offended or surprised. 1, 2.

Thanks for addressing the hell one, and my apologies for assuming your interpretations. I think it was graphuto who equated it to everlasting torment.
edit on 29-10-2014 by WakeUpBeer because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:40 AM
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a reply to: smithjustinb




Its not logical to believe in something that you have never seen or that no one else can see unless they believe in it.


Of course it is. You can't do logic without believing in something that you nor anyone else has even seen. You believe that you can make a point to me because you believe that there is such a thing as logical absolutes, but I have only asked you for one thing all night and that is to justify the existence of the Laws of Logic from an atheistic world view. You have yet to do this.




It is logical to believe in something that math (1+1=2) [every time] can predict.


Logic is the basis for math, so you cannot justify the existence of abstract mathematical absolutes without first having some form of justification for the existence of its basis, Logic.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 04:54 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: smithjustinb

Logic is the basis for math


Math is the basis for logic.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 05:06 AM
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a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I will tell you what I told a friend on another thread, when reading the bible you must keep two things in mind:

1) The author of a passage chooses his diction
2 The author chooses that diction based on his understanding of is occurring

The word translated sacrifice is olah and it can be used in a figurative or a literal sense. The author gives us clues as to what occurred but rather than take them and try and understand the scenario being given to us you want to harp on it because you think its a contradiction to the nature of the God I believe in. However, let me just go ahead and point out that even if you were right and he sacrificed his daughter God never commanded this nor does he approve as is apparent in many other verse. Notice some of the details the author put into Judges 11, She goes into the forest to bewail her virginity not her death.Second the author goes out of the way to state that Jephthah had no Children other than her and so that means her celibacy would end his family line.

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

Notice how the author adds that extra and she knew no man. In your interpretation this statement would be unnecessary to add on, but in mine all it does is back up my idea that the word OLAH was meant in a figurative way.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 05:20 AM
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a reply to: smithjustinb




Logicism is the thesis that mathematics is reducible to logic, and hence nothing but a part of logic.[7]:41 Logicists hold that mathematics can be known a priori, but suggest that our knowledge of mathematics is just part of our knowledge of logic in general, and is thus analytic, not requiring any special faculty of mathematical intuition. In this view, logic is the proper foundation of mathematics, and all mathematical statements are necessary logical truths.


en.wikipedia.org...




The concepts of mathematics can be derived from logical concepts through explicit definitions.
The theorems of mathematics can be derived from logical axioms through purely logical deduction.


If math is the basis for logic then we would be able to write 4+5=389 and logic would follow that pattern from then on. However we recognize 4+5 cannot equal 389 because logic is the basis of math and dictates through the law of identity that the number 4 must always be the number 4 and the number 5 always 5 we can then say that logically 4+5 does not equal 389. Our basis for doing correct math is logic friend and therefore math is merely a subset of logic.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 05:46 AM
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The author of this thread wants to talk about logic. Okay, here is some logic. Large chunks of the bible have been proven to be flat out wrong. Genesis is just one of many creation myths and the story of Noahs Ark was not only impossible but it has been scientifically proven not to have happened either. While God can do things that are impossible, the scientific proof shows that He simply didn't do these things. There is no evidence that Exodus happened as the bible states it did and there is a very good possibility that Abraham didn't exist at all. Since the author wants to talk about logic then I submit that logic demands he admit these facts; admit the fact that there are massive errors in the bible; and admit that the bible shouldn't be read as literal fact. Logic demands this.


edit on 29-10-2014 by Jainine because: spelling error



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 06:05 AM
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I'm a believer, i know that there are flaws in the Bible, I know that there are a lot of things in the OT that are pretty shocking and just wrong. Its more about experience than anything else, when you experience God you know it and it changes you. I have struggled with my faith the entire 18 years ive been a Christian. Not trying to push anything on anyone...but the love and peace you find is unlike anything else. Even if some facts dont line up, or there are some things in the Bible that seem like they shouldnt be, Jesus changed things, you are loved and thats what we all want when we cut to the core. This is a peaceful post, I'm not arguing with anyone, just wanted to say that there is love out there to be found and its right in front of you. Just have to reach out and take it.
KK



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 07:40 AM
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The trouble I have with this thread is that many people talk about objective truth but make the mistake they believe their subjective knowledge is the all spanning objective truth of "all that is".

In Buddhism there is for some a want for knowing the objective truth and in fact destroying the religion Buddhism since it is not the perfect truth that people are seeking but a temporary place where you can gain understanding until you move beyond it.

The idea is to find so much wisdom that the subjective part of your understanding becomes lesser and your objective part of your understanding become larger so that you do not get trapped in a subjective illusion thinking the subjective is the objective. Some can call this a battle of the ego illusion. Transforming the ego to be more ego less.

I also think there is objective moral that is exact and a good measurement of how a soul behaves that would be sin and works in the Christian faith model. But that do not mean that the subjective bible is a good source for understanding objective morality. I do think Jesus is very objective teacher but at the same time think Paul is very subjective teacher and therefor not fit to teach at all.

And to say it clearly I do believe in spiritual matters since I have myself had experience of the things we have not included in science yet. I just do not think the bible is good description of my experiences. To limited to really make the spiritual the justice it deserves.



posted on Oct, 29 2014 @ 07:44 AM
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originally posted by: krisdogg
I'm a believer, i know that there are flaws in the Bible, I know that there are a lot of things in the OT that are pretty shocking and just wrong. Its more about experience than anything else, when you experience God you know it and it changes you. I have struggled with my faith the entire 18 years ive been a Christian. Not trying to push anything on anyone...but the love and peace you find is unlike anything else. Even if some facts dont line up, or there are some things in the Bible that seem like they shouldnt be, Jesus changed things, you are loved and thats what we all want when we cut to the core. This is a peaceful post, I'm not arguing with anyone, just wanted to say that there is love out there to be found and its right in front of you. Just have to reach out and take it.
KK


I kinda can relate to the whole experience God you know it and it changes you comment. It is an eye opener.


Namaste (I bow to the divine in you)




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