Jesus Vs Yahweh sorta

As a Christian (so I claim) I see what appears to be a huge misunderstanding about who Jehovah/YHWH is in relation to the Messiah Jesus.

Yes Jehovah was God, is God. Jehovah gave mankind the laws, not only did He give us the laws, He carried out the punishments against those who transgressed, broke the laws.
Being a loving God He was responsible for the punishment of both those He held a covenant with and those who He didnt hold a covenant with.
The law of Jehovah must be obeyed and justice for those who break them must be carried out, sin requires a punishment.

We see the laws of nature in our daily lives, we see the laws of our governments, like them or not they exist and we are bound to them.
True we may break the civil laws and not get caught, get away with our crimes or misdemeanour's.
Laws are made up to protect the individual, to help society get along, make it more pleasant for everybody.
Jehovahs laws were made for the same reason.

The difference is that God sees everything, sees our heart, sees true repentance, unrepentance as well.
Allow me for a minute to talk creation and perfection,it explains what a true loving God desires, simply a new Eden.
Eden as is creation, a very important Christian doctrine. It represents what God created us for. Paradise and relationship.

The law, on its own has no value without justice, all true Christians must accept that justice is our most dear desire outside of a relationship with God.
God (YHWH/Jehovah) is a God of love and justice.
Here in lies our problem. Justice by its very nature demands a punishment, something that seems to be in opposition to love.
Strangely punishment can be administered in love, a parent to a child. Though there can be abuse, God does not abuse His authority.

So as we read the Old Testament we see a God administering justice. Killing many, is that good or bad.
Lets look at ISIL, would many be concerned if God smote the members of ISIL from the face of the earth? Stalins murderers, good or bad justice? Hitler and his henchmen, annihilated by God, would that have been acceptable?
The Old Testament is just jam packed with Gods justice reigning down on evil countrys, armys and kings, God even destroyed the people of Israel, leaving only a remnant because they became evil.

Years ago this "evil" God realised humanity had no hope without a divine intervention, we all hurt each other, all deserve a punishment that would see us banished from relationships. This evil God decided the best way to rectify the problem was to send an extension of Himself, send His Son, send Himself (I dont understand the Trinity, though accept it) to pay the price, to accept our debt for our injustices.

Sort of like a judge paying the fine he imposed on his own child for committing a crime, simply because the judge loves and cares for his child.So this "evil" God sends His Son Jesus to carry the burden of our own personnel sin, why, because justice must be served.

So does that sound like an "evil" God?
Is justice something that we as individuals dont want

Jehovah, YHWH what ever you want to call the Creator, Abrahamic God, is clearly to me at least, not evil, justice is not evil.
So Loving is God that He sent Jesus and then offered us His Grace, made Himself accountable for our sin, stepped in and accepted our punishment, only if we believed on Him and tried to honour Him with our actions.

God sent Jesus so we would have the opportunity to escape the law imposed on humanity, a law made to serve our best interests.

The God of the Old Testament is Jesus. YHWH is love. Jehovah is Jesus. Its that simple.

Its not over yet, the law must be fulfilled, Jesus is coming back to judge humanity, the law must be fulfilled.
They are the same God, the punishments of the Old Testaments shall return and final judgement.

Ok, thats it,

Jesus is coming back to judge humanity, the law must be fulfilled.

Ok, thats it, fire away

I am not going to fire away as I absolutely hate the word "FIRE AWAY"... very agressive... but I AM going to ask you a plain and logical question (IMO) :

How (PHYSICALLY AND REALLY) is Jesus coming back (and I don't mean in YOUR eyes)... BUT for all of those that do-not share the same ideas as your self?

Please can you keep this simple and as realistic as possible? AND IF POSSIBLE PROVIDE HARDCORE AND CONCRETE PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinus

a reply to: borntowatch
I agree entirely.
I've done a thread of my own pointing out how Jesus identified his God as the God of the Old Testament. He took it for granted in everything he said.
As does every other book of the New Testament.

Love and wrath are two sides of the same coin, all the way through the Bible.
Love for the victims of oppression involves wrath against the oppressor. But in the New Testament, the oppressor is "sin and death", what Paul calls "the last enemy".

originally posted by: Rodinus
I am not going to fire away as I absolutely hate the word "FIRE AWAY"... very agressive... but I AM going to ask you a plain and logical question (IMO) :

How (PHYSICALLY AND REALLY) is Jesus coming back (and I don't mean in YOUR eyes)... BUT for all of those that do-not share the same ideas as your self?

Please can you keep this simple and as realistic as possible? AND IF POSSIBLE PROVIDE HARDCORE AND CONCRETE PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Jesus is coming back in flesh and blood
Can I prove it.....
Nope
I can only believe it by faith, by my understanding of what is written in the bible.
By observing the condition of the world we live in and prophecy

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Rodinus
I am not going to fire away as I absolutely hate the word "FIRE AWAY"... very agressive... but I AM going to ask you a plain and logical question (IMO) :

How (PHYSICALLY AND REALLY) is Jesus coming back (and I don't mean in YOUR eyes)... BUT for all of those that do-not share the same ideas as your self?

Please can you keep this simple and as realistic as possible? AND IF POSSIBLE PROVIDE HARDCORE AND CONCRETE PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Jesus is coming back in flesh and blood
Can I prove it.....
Nope
I can only believe it by faith, by my understanding of what is written in the bible.
By observing the condition of the world we live in and prophecy

Thank you for your personal explanations.

This is not solid and concrete proof that Jesus is coming back.

Why do you believe he/she is coming back?

People have been saying for hundreds and hundreds of years that Jesus is coming back??? (AND IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED...)

Sorry if I am mistaken... but I personally and nearly everyone that I know has/have not seen any valid and proved sign yet... have you... and if so could you please elaborate?

It is easy to recite verses from any religious document (ONLY WRITTEN WORDS)... where is the PROOF?

Up until now, EVERY SINGLE person that says that Jesus is coming or whatever in accordance with religion HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE SOLID PROOF???

Kindest respects

Rodinusby]

I'm not sure i entirely follow the train of thought here.

God may have expressed love and justice, but i think he took the justice part a bit overboard...not to say he is 'evil' in the sense of the word though.

I think it is wiser to look at the old testament god and the new testament god as different interpretations of the one entity. Yes Jesus followed the old testament and its god - he was a Jew practicing Judaism after all. Christianity and its new testament interpretation of god came after the death of Jesus and can be defined as a different characterisation of the god Jesus worshiped as a result. In effect, the gods of both testaments aren't necessarily one in the same, but rather, different interpretations of the one entity they called god at varying periods of time.

This is my opinion. But i feel it makes more sense than the god being the one entity who in one book overwhelmingly struck justice on his creations, and in the other provided a deeper sense of compassion and love.

a reply to: daaskapital
I see it as a gradual teaching process, in which the one God brings people to a closer understanding of what he really wants.
Much of the Old Testament is filled with the human element, which has to be distinguished and filtered out.

originally posted by: Rodinus
This is not solid and concrete proof that Jesus is coming back.

If you had solid and concrete proof there would be no need for faith.

Mar 8:12
He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

My take is that you do not treat a child as you would an adult. Humanity was as an infant. As humanity "grew up", God then treated it differently. God did not change, the Earth and humanity changed.

Mar 8:12
He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

A copy paste from Mark 8:12 but STILL NO PROOF?

As I stated earlier on "It is easy to recite verses from any religious document (ONLY WRITTEN WORDS copy pasted)... where is the PROOF?

Apart from written words and personal belief there is no solid prood that Jesus has or will come back...

And anyways... "he sighed and said why does THIS generation...." Cripes... a few generations have gone by since no???

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Oh snap, is that another Bible believing and understanding Christian I see in the house? Praise the lord. We're a dying breed.

originally posted by: Rodinus

Mar 8:12
He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

A copy paste from Mark 8:12 but STILL NO PROOF?

As I stated earlier on "It is easy to recite verses from any religious document (ONLY WRITTEN WORDS copy pasted)... where is the PROOF?

Apart from written words and personal belief there is no solid prood that Jesus has or will come back...

And anyways... "he sighed and said why does THIS generation...." Cripes... a few generations have gone by since no???

Kindest respects

Rodinus

You are asking for proof when Jesus says none will be given. If you want proof, you will not get any.

a reply to: Rodinus

Please read the sticky "Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic" at the top of the "Religion, Faith, and Theology" forum. You don't come into this forum, and specifically this thread, which is trying to get into the deeper matters of Christianity, and question the existence of God or validity of the Bible. There are other threads for those discussions. You asked for "proof" knowing full well that the only type of proof Christians have is the Bible. Then you say we can't use the Bible.

Straight up, it's against the rules.

originally posted by: graphuto
Oh snap, is that another Bible believing and understanding Christian I see in the house? Praise the lord. We're a dying breed.

A dying breed? There's over 2 billion Christians on the Earth. I'd hardly call that a dying breed.

a reply to: daaskapital

I said Bible believing. There are tons of people who claim to be "Christians" but don't believe 3/4 of the Bible.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So if I may politely ask and after what the OP stated here : "Jesus is coming back to judge humanity"

We just have to rely on the OPs personal words and not ask for facts or proof?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

originally posted by: Rodinus
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So if I may politely ask and after what the OP stated here : "Jesus is coming back to judge humanity"

We just have to rely on the OPs personal words and not ask for facts or proof?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

No. The OP's words are meaningless, you should not rely on them at all. Jesus said He was. You can believe Him or not, the choice is yours. It's as if you told your wife who is stuck in a building you are coming back for her. You can not prove you are going to come back, she either has faith in you that you will, or she doesn't. Can you prove to her you will come back?

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: daaskapital

I said Bible believing.

A fair number of the 2.1 billion Christians on Earth would have to be 'bible believing' though, considering it is the fundamental book of which their faith is based.

Of course this all just speculation on both of our parts. You don't know how many Christians strictly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, and neither do i. What we do know is that there are 2.1 billion Christians who may or may not follow the teachings.

a reply to: daaskapital

Fair enough, but also, I meant specifically on this forum.

originally posted by: graphuto
a reply to: Rodinus

Please read the sticky "Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic" at the top of the "Religion, Faith, and Theology" forum. You don't come into this forum, and specifically this thread, which is trying to get into the deeper matters of Christianity, and question the existence of God or validity of the Bible. There are other threads for those discussions.

Straight up, it's against the rules.

Oh, My sincerest apologies Graphuto, I did not realise that you now had special hidden moderator status and that you now disallow people to have their own opinions whilst having a non agressive conversation with the OP???

Please alert the REAL moderation staff (just click on my profile, click alert and then you get a free cookie) relating to my questioning and polite debating of this thread, especially if you disagree or decide that I am unwelcome in discussing this particular topic.

I have asked a pertinent question and have am awaiting a pertinent an intelligent answer and eventual debate/discussion from respected members.

There is nothing wrong with that?

Thank you.

Kindest respects

Rodinus