Israel is Lost

Originally posted by electric squid carpet
I can't find the video yet but here are some news articles and files about the exhibition, its called "breaking the silence":

www.shovrimshtika.org...

www.refusingtokill.net...

www.washingtonpost.com...

www.abc.net.au...

Why is it that when "proof" exists someone always "comes and takes it away". Did it ever actually exist?

Not everything was confiscated, only the video's of killings


[edit on 10-12-2004 by electric squid carpet]

Nice job with the data. I hope everyone can see it. But it doesn't change my mind here. Terrorisim is the problem here not a single incident or a mass of incidents. Let this child be the LAST.

Originally posted by DrHoracid

All this from someone who's avatar says "eating babies". You have missed my point here. Terrorisim is the EVIL here. I am sure this commander didn't wake up and say I'm going to go out and shoot a 13 year old girl 20 times today. End the madness now. Let this poor child be the last one murdered for some political or Religious dogma.....................

My mood may say eating babies, but anyone with half a brain can see the irony of it.

I am yet to kill or eat any babies.

But you condone it. This child was not a terrorist, she didnt die because some Imam told her to rush soldiers with a bomb. She died because she was terrified of the soldiers and ran. And this officer shot her in cold blood, as she was fleeing.

BIG difference. Anyone who thinks this child died because she was a terrorist on a mission is braindead. Thats obvious from the videos.

Anyone who actually thinks its ok to shoot a kid because they might be terrorists, or they believe all Arabs are terrorists, is a sick, deranged person with no soul or value of life.

What that Israeli soldier did to that child is why Palestinians strap bombs to their backs and blow up a crowd of innocent Jews on the Sabbath.

Its because the Israeli military silently condones this behavior, and does not punish these few evil doers, and because of people like Sharon, and his cronies, these crimes go for the most part, unchecked, and thus, innocent israelis and good israeli soldiers pay the price.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by DrHoracid

All this from someone who's avatar says "eating babies". You have missed my point here. Terrorisim is the EVIL here. I am sure this commander didn't wake up and say I'm going to go out and shoot a 13 year old girl 20 times today. End the madness now. Let this poor child be the last one murdered for some political or Religious dogma.....................

My mood may say eating babies, but anyone with half a brain can see the irony of it.

I am yet to kill or eat any babies.

But you condone it. This child was not a terrorist, she didnt die because some Imam told her to rush soldiers with a bomb. She died because she was terrified of the soldiers and ran. And this officer shot her in cold blood, as she was fleeing.

BIG difference. Anyone who thinks this child died because she was a terrorist on a mission is braindead. Thats obvious from the videos.

Anyone who actually thinks its ok to shoot a kid because they might be terrorists, or they believe all Arabs are terrorists, is a sick, deranged person with no soul or value of life.

What that Israeli soldier did to that child is why Palestinians strap bombs to their backs and blow up a crowd of innocent Jews on the Sabbath.

Its because the Israeli military silently condones this behavior, and does not punish these few evil doers, and because of people like Sharon, and his cronies, these crimes go for the most part, unchecked, and thus, innocent israelis and good israeli soldiers pay the price.

I am pleased to hear you haven't killed or eaten any babies. I hope you are telling the truth there. Green river killer and all. Why do you HATE the Israeli's? Soldiers must make instant decisions or die.

Anyone who actually thinks its ok to shoot a kid because they might be terrorists, or they believe all Arabs are terrorists, is a sick, deranged person with no soul or value of life.

What that Israeli soldier did to that child is why Palestinians strap bombs to their backs and blow up a crowd of innocent Jews on the Sabbath.

Its because the Israeli military silently condones this behavior, and does not punish these few evil doers, and because of people like Sharon, and his cronies, these crimes go for the most part, unchecked, and thus, innocent israelis and good israeli soldiers pay the price.

I don't understand how this is any different from what I am saying in regards to the US army in Iraq. Yet, you think it insults your intelligence to think the US army is condoning this?
I could quite easily just say now "It's not all the Israeli army" to use your own logic against you, but I won't, because I know it is true that the bulk engage in this activity.

Did you actually know that US has been trained by the Israel military, that you just now claimed condones this murderous behavior, for the Iraq war?

www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Why is it that when "proof" exists someone always "comes and takes it away". Did it ever actually exist?

Israel does practice strict censorship to prevent the truth from being told.

I a CBC report, the reporter stated:
"The arrangement is this, all three networks here agree that if the army doesn't like what's filmed, the footage is never broadcast."

I thought that type of censorship only occured in dictatorships.

This is the news clip that briefly mentions the censorship:
2002-04-02 Israeli attack on Jenin refugee camp (CBC).mpg

Originally posted by DrHoracid Jordan was greated as a home for the Palastinians in 1948. They were driven out. So who is more EVIL here.....SADDAM or this Israeli commander?

Where the heck do you get your information?

Jordan was created in 1922.
When Palestine was partitioned into Jewish and Arab states in the late 40's, it was never intended for the Palestinians to be expelled.

BTW, where does the SADDAM comment come form?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

I don't understand how this is any different from what I am saying in regards to the US army in Iraq. Yet, you think it insults your intelligence to think the US army is condoning this?
I could quite easily just say now "It's not all the Israeli army" to use your own logic against you, but I won't, because I know it is true that the bulk engage in this activity.

Did you actually know that US has been trained by the Israel military, that you just now claimed condones this murderous behavior, for the Iraq war?

www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

Next time you post a link to support your point, please get it from a trustworthy, reliable source. the guardian is to the left what the National Standard and Fox news is to the right.

Anyway, if the Israeli military is indeed there training, they are training small groups of soldiers, special forces. Which i highly doubt. I know the israelis were there with the CIA earlier, and were involved in the Abu Ghraib crimes.

The US army does not condone such behavior. otherwise, we wouldnt have scandals and people getting put on trial for these war crimes. When its discovered that US troops are doing things they aint supposed to be doing, heads start rolling. Not so in Israel, where the public, the govornment, and the rest of the military know damn well whats going on, and this is probably the first time Ive heard of an israeli soldier acting getting any flak over it.

The problems with US soldiers in Iraq and the crimes against Iraqi civilians that they are committing stems from a couple of serious problems. One is a total breakdown in command and dicipline. there is little discipline, order, and rresponsibility in the command structures. its a similar situation that we had in Vietnam.

The second problem is lack of training. Many of these soldiers were given little to no briefings and training on the Geneva conventions. My own friends who are still in the army have told me, they cant remeber the last time they had geneva conventions training. When i was in, we had 1 whole week every six months of geneva training, where we roleplayed different situations, and learned what is legal, how to handle prisoners, what their rights were, and what situations deadly force could be used. We did extensive training on it, and learned alot.

Unfortunately, proper military training, not just in the conventions, but everywhere else, has been lacking, a product of the Clinton years. i served under Clinton, and I know first hand what his gaggle of idiots were doing to the military. We spent more time in "sensitivity classes" (classes where we were told repeatedly we are not allowed to swear or tell dirty jokes cuz someone might get offended) than we did learning the skills, rules, and necessary training to function in wartime.

So no, the US military does not condone such behavior. Some commanders might, but that happens in every army. the difference is, when someone was caught committing war crimes, we punish them. because its not acceptable.

The Israeli military has been doing crap like this for 50 years right in plain view of everyone to see, and no punishments are given.

So yes, a few bad troops in Iraq will do bad things for bad reasons. Thats unavoidable. But the measure of the people is not in the fact that crimes are committed. Its in the fact that they will be punished if we catch them.

This is the first time Ive heard of an israeli officer getting in any trouble over blowing away a Palestinian kid. They do it all the friggin time, and no steps made to punish them....until now.

Its terrorism to shoot a child

BUT

if you strap a bomb on that child and have him blow himself up in a mall or school bus then you are a freedom fighter?

Love that Logic people

Next time you post a link to support your point, please get it from a trustworthy, reliable source. the guardian is to the left what the National Standard and Fox news is to the right.

There is nothing wrong with the Guardian in my opinion, it is quite establised. Here is another source: www.usatoday.com...

Anyway, if the Israeli military is indeed there training, they are training small groups of soldiers, special forces. Which i highly doubt. I know the israelis were there with the CIA earlier, and were involved in the Abu Ghraib crimes.

Well, we know the element of Israeli military is involved. Let's leave it at that.

The US army does not condone such behavior. otherwise, we wouldnt have scandals and people getting put on trial for these war crimes. When its discovered that US troops are doing things they aint supposed to be doing, heads start rolling. Not so in Israel, where the public, the govornment, and the rest of the military know damn well whats going on, and this is probably the first time Ive heard of an israeli soldier acting getting any flak over it.

How many US army soliders are there in Iraq? A few dozens of thousands? How many Iraqis have been killed? A hundred thousand? How many men are on trial? A few dozen? The math does not add up.

How many were involved in the prison abuse? A dozen? How many prisoners? A few thousands? How many service man? A few hundred. The math does not add up.

The Abu Gharib prison abuse scandal was exposed in early 2003 by the Red Cross UK, several months before evidence was produced. Also, the Red Cross also exposed the same type of abuse in Afghanistan prisons, Guantamno bay. A few dozen? The math does not add up.

It is certainly convenient for the government to investigate, and then put on trial those involved for media consumption, and then later these people are welcomed as heroes of their respective states.

The commonality of these crimes and sheer frequency of them in the US army, both at home and abroad, and given the explosion in Iraqi mortality, as well as the testimonial evidence of Sergant Jimmy Masse, the testimony of those involved in the prison abuse(who claim they were carrying out orders) and the media snippets of violence showing US soliders openly killing civillians and condoning it, clearly demonstrates this is an institutional and state crime.

Exactly, as you accuse Israel of. So why the double standards?

The problems with US soldiers in Iraq and the crimes against Iraqi civilians that they are committing stems from a couple of serious problems. One is a total breakdown in command and dicipline. there is little discipline, order, and rresponsibility in the command structures. its a similar situation that we had in Vietnam.

The second problem is lack of training. Many of these soldiers were given little to no briefings and training on the Geneva conventions. My own friends who are still in the army have told me, they cant remeber the last time they had geneva conventions training. When i was in, we had 1 whole week every six months of geneva training, where we roleplayed different situations, and learned what is legal, how to handle prisoners, what their rights were, and what situations deadly force could be used. We did extensive training on it, and learned alot.

Unfortunately, proper military training, not just in the conventions, but everywhere else, has been lacking, a product of the Clinton years. i served under Clinton, and I know first hand what his gaggle of idiots were doing to the military. We spent more time in "sensitivity classes" (classes where we were told repeatedly we are not allowed to swear or tell dirty jokes cuz someone might get offended) than we did learning the skills, rules, and necessary training to function in wartime.

That only goes to show the allegations are true, that the US army in Iraq is poorly trained, dehumanized and given poor intelligence "everyone could be the enemy" and thus they are gunning down children. The same can be argued for Israeli army?

So, could we say now, that each killing by each solider is justified?

This is the first time Ive heard of an israeli officer getting in any trouble over blowing away a Palestinian kid. They do it all the friggin time, and no steps made to punish them....until now.

It's called scapegoating. I am sure there many in Israel that would turn around and say the same that you have said in regards to US - "We punish them too"

It's all propaganda that's what it is. The US and Israel are involved in the genocide of the Iraqi and Palistinian people, respectively. Someone is going to take accountability for the oppression and murder of these people, and it's them.

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Indigo_Child]

I was watching a program on the discovery channel and at the end it showed a reporter walking out in the darkness with a flaq jacket with TV writen in bold shining a flash light at a white flag and shouting out TV in Isreali or what ever language and a Isreali soldier opens fire on him shooting him in the neck.

www.palestinemonitor.org...

Originally posted by Killak420
I was watching a program on the discovery channel and at the end it showed a reporter walking out in the darkness with a flaq jacket with TV writen in bold shining a flash light at a white flag and shouting out TV in Isreali or what ever language and a Isreali soldier opens fire on him shooting him in the neck.

www.palestinemonitor.org...

So perhaps to stop terrorisim the US should just Nuke the whole place? The data being presented here would lead one to believe both sides are equally guilty of horrors beyond redemption.

In my opinion the world would have been better off if the Romans hadnt wasted their time occupying the area and just walled the whole region off instead. A wall with a sign saying "Danger Do Not Enter, Land Of The Religious Nutballs" in big red letters. Not quite sure how that would sound in Latin though.