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I find the concept of Enlightenment problematic

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posted on Dec, 4 2014 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm

Is that what I wrote?


maybe i was indirectly suggesting that you be somewhat more specific. which i am now directly suggesting. might i also suggest using more than seven words.




posted on Dec, 4 2014 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope


The declaration of "I am enlightened" is exactly what it sounds like: "I am enlightened, you are not"; "I know all, you do not".

No one is enlightened - the whole point is that there is no one.
There is nothing individual.

There is only light but there 'seams' to be something looking for it.

This is whole as it is.

edit on 4-12-2014 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2014 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: TzarChasm

Oh my apologies. Let me try again.


So you are saying that coming to terms with life and love and the universe is a youthful whimsy and unrealistic?


I don't recall mentioning coming to terms with life and love and the universe.



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 08:47 AM
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a reply to: EviLCHiMP

not swine

buddhas, all of you

just not 'yet'

linear existence can be such a chore

somehow, somewhere, these words are heard...

the universe is always talking, we just have to know how to listen

but we listen with our filters, so we hear what we want to hear

but the message is still in there, like a kernel of truth, sometimes you just have to turn the words backwards, inside out and upside down.

just like the buddha in all



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: taoistguy

Qft.... Dualism is a veil presented to obscure the path. You are already enlightended, you just dont know it yet.
thats the problem with basically all religion. It tries to teach you there is something seperate from yourself, that you are this and the other thing is that, when in fact you are both the same.

Enlightment doesnt come in a glorious package with blinding light and eternal bliss. But the pleasure you get from it depends on what essence you yourself give you from obtaining this knowledge.
The funny thing is.... Once you realise it, youll see the titbits in litterature and music like small little recognitions of this fact.

And best of all; it doesnt require a church, a priest or a master for you to practice it.... In fact I think it works best and more universal that way.

Buddhism comes close, but unfortunately is also poisoned by hierachy and tales of sexual misconduct ( in the western branches...) which made me lose respect for it completely in its current shape. However the original forms of buddhism are pretty bright.
edit on 5-12-2014 by IWasHereEonsAgo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 02:39 PM
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The old ego, just has a habit of clinging to concepts and ideas it takes to have some significant meaning, it becomes cognitively dissonant when these "beliefs" are threatened. It demands that it is correct and others are wrong, it tries to sway belief, idea, and opinion. It is a self important stressful thing to defend and prop up, as the ego is an extreme. It causes war/peace, abundance/famine and a host of other societal ills/betterment when it turns to ideologies.

The ego is discriminatory, and props up the main roof beam of duality. The fear of removing it is wholly self created by the ego, in a self sustaining ignorance... it lies to you and makes you think you will not exist once it is gone, the same way bi-polar artistic individuals think they will lose creativity if they take medication that stabilizes their mood.

Ego death does not equal depersonalization, you are in a sense your experiences, your memory of these experiences go nowhere and neither do you, just your thoughts about those experiences are transformed into clear seeing and wisdom. The difference goes from having extreme thoughts of good or bad about those experiences, to one of understanding what was/is occurring in them, that you could not see through the eyes of self important bias at the time. You are still you in the end, there is no dress code, no special diet, no clubs to join, no news letters to receive.

One simply lets go of all past extremes of their experience, heal from understanding the extreme they missed when they chose the other extreme... this gives an out pouring of wisdom as it shows more sides to reality than what one chose to focus on at the time... half wise is still unwise. Choose to focus on negative then that's all one sees, choose to focus only on the positive, then that's all one sees. It does not stop one from experiencing, any state that could be labeled bad while focusing on good, nor does it stop anyone from experiencing good when focused only on bad.

So the ego is ultimately moot to cling too, in the struggle for freedom and the enemy of wisdom and understanding. The ego see's one side of the story: It's own.

To sum ego and it's death up? The self once ignorantly believed it was the most important thing at the center of the universe. Once the ego dies, one sees they were never at the center of anything nor important as they once led them-self to believe. The sense of oneness arises from understanding we are all in the same boat, this gives rise to compassion and empathy. I have been hungry... I know what you are going through... let me help as I have plenty... it doesn't keep track, it doesn't keep score, it has no other intent or motive to helping/being helped that the ego could/would assign... now they owe me, maybe they will continue to do me favors... etc etc. The whole control and barter system over others falls away... what goes away with it is pretty obvious.



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 02:49 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm

Oh my apologies. Let me try again.


So you are saying that coming to terms with life and love and the universe is a youthful whimsy and unrealistic?


I don't recall mentioning coming to terms with life and love and the universe.


thats what i call enlightenment without all the fancy trappings. thats the whole point of it isnt it? but it feels to me like you are connecting youth to enlightenment and saying we outgrow it. see, im still not clear on that. so maybe you could clarify right now before we go further. oh wait, i already asked you to do that and you gave me a sarcastic response.

edit on 5-12-2014 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 05:47 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm




thats what i call enlightenment without all the fancy trappings. thats the whole point of it isnt it? but it feels to me like you are connecting youth to enlightenment and saying we outgrow it.


Sounds like you have it figured out to me.



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 08:01 PM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Beautiful words brother. It's paradoxically humorous how many elaborate layers of illusion the mind ensnares us with when we come to realize how simple the truth is. It's literally dangling right infront of our faces yet we completely miss it, experiencing suffering life after life as we endulge ourselves in the enticing mind and its alluring suggestions.



posted on Dec, 5 2014 @ 10:02 PM
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a reply to: EviLCHiMP

Eh, it is what it is. The path itself though difficult as it may seem, it nothing compared to the patience it takes to see the people of the world sitting in a burning house not even knowing it is on fire, and all one can do to help the situation is patiently point... The dogma of terms are no help at all, as they can blind and choke people the same as the smoke from the burning house, needlessly over complicate pointing at the exit, and sometimes drive people off the path altogether. Jesus?... deflector shields activate! Atheist?... Bring me the Holy hand grenade of Antioch!

Labels and dogmas help no one, other than ones ego to express how studious one has been in their reading and study of whatever flavor of spaghetti they savor for a savior.

An example of this; is the term Tathagata, many swap it out for comprehension sake as the Buddha when reading, when neither of those clarify the meaning which causes a lost of comprehension to what is being conveyed. Suchness, is a more comprehensive word and truer to the situation, suchness is a description of one without a self or ego. If anyone loves suttas/sutras(discourses with the Buddha, pali=sutta/sanskrit=sutra) then might I suggest going back and reading their favorites swapping out Tathagata for the concept or understanding of suchness instead... if you do not have a favorite might I suggest The Heart and The Diamond suttas/sutras.

If Buddhism is not your jam, then try using suchness in the place of whatever luminaries name you prescribe too, and the text will be more illuminated and so will you, as one stops seeing the acts as miraculous and only achieved by one person so special one must worship he/she before all others and condemn those that think theirs is more special. When they understood what suchness was and were merely pointing the way out, the character many admire was/is from simply being egoless... please note that does not equate to being a doormat, some will flip tables and get nailed to a cross, some will eat spoiled meat and die, simply because it's the thought in ones gift that counts.

Sure many see one standing there pointing, but only admire the finger the pointing to the path, or the words of the path: "Hey you! The house is on fire, get the hell out of there!" They fail to see they have the same exact ability to point to the exit once they see the finger hear the words then get the hell out of there.

They first must realize 'This whole damn place is on fire...' then see bloody finger and it's owner(s) patiently smiling showing the way out. Many say holy hell the house is on fire... then see someone standing there calmly pointing, and think "ok, as long as that guy/girl is calm and peaceful about it being on fire... then I have nothing to fear." "Cheers, to you finger pointy guy/girl for standing there, ever so patient... one of these days, I might just look beyond the finger and see what it is you are pointing at."... "Oh, and by the way... I told those fruit loops down the street, my pointy guy/girl is better than their pointy guy/girl they seemed like they wanted to go to war over it, but you've got my back doncha pointy guy/girl always here when I need ya, never around when I don't, which is kinda odd... oh, btw do you ever smell smoke? I do think my ol olfactory organ is off it's rocker sometimes."

Seeing past the veil, isn't difficult... seeing the self clinging to it's own camouflage of self created drama and letting go isn't difficult. It's seeing all the burning bodies writhing in pain and suffering saying "I'm ok! false alarm!" behind the veil and drama... when all you can do to help them, is point at the same damn door everyone else has pointed at since noticing the fire, seeing the finger through the smoke, and running the finger path to the door to escape. Once this occurs, the siddhi power of not being burned by fire occurs...

Yes, for those that may not have realized it yet, some of the supernatural power attainments are not wholly literal... but can also be figurative, as we are dealing with many levels of delusion covering one base of reality. I suggest reading any scripture pointing towards the door as if there is some heavy innuendo involved... as that is usually the case. Especially the ones that causes you an ah ha! moment, at the ah ha, stop and understand what it said to you that resonated, then reverse it's course and see what it wasn't saying to you, as that will be an ah ha! moment to someone else, this unravels the delusion that you just learned something special and unique or validates your experience which does nothing more than feed the ego.

Care to see how much of an ego you may still have? Pick a topic right here at ATS you feel you are an authority of, and go post your best thoughts and feelings on the subject in it or create a topic about it... it won't be long until someone comes a long to either deny your ignorance of the said subject, or show you how woefully incorrect your thinking has been. Be sure to notice your thoughts and reactions to the comments beyond your control, how do you feel? Do you retort because the response wasn't or was what you expected? A star here, a wink and a nod there, an oh it's that person again... a forum is a great place to humble oneself and kill the ego, doesn't take an all night long session on a cushion with legs crossed for luck and staring into the void.

I supposed I digressed quite a bit, and went into nonsense I noticed that helped me find the door... as you were, pay no attention to the silly man behind the curtain.



posted on Dec, 7 2014 @ 12:07 AM
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What I see the ego as, in real terms, is simply a self-referential construct that comprises of mainly the "voice in the head" that uses the same voice we use for speaking. When we "hear our own voice" in our heads, we might mistake it for being "ourselves" however, if it is involuntary, that is, if it acts without choice, then it is no different to any occurrence in the mind or body that is also involuntary. I might scratch my head, I might hear myself talking in my mind. If I know as such that it is just a "voice pattern" coupled with thoughts pertaining to self-concept, then easily, I can disregard it.

In a way, I too recognise the workings of the "ego" and you could say that it is just another "software" in the mind.

Also, in the positive sense, if the "ego" is software, then it can be programmed and one can even "design" their own personalities - as many have been doing - to their liking. The only way to have control over your ego is paradoxically to know that it is just a another mode of thought, and not the truth to one' s identity. It does not mean however, that it should be destroyed or disregarded, it plays an important role in our social lives and also in our means of expressing ourselves as individuals.
edit on 7-12-2014 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:24 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Youth. We eventually grow out of it.

Violently, unfortunately, and not necessarily.



posted on Dec, 8 2014 @ 12:26 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
...usually erring on the terms that makes him look better to others, and most likely himself.

YOU BLACKEST POT OF THE BLACK!!! /HUGE HUG!

I am no better, therefore I sayeth I am better because I am no better than those I sayeth I am no better than. /UNF!!!!
edit on 8-12-2014 by TrenchRun because: Yes!



posted on Dec, 12 2014 @ 09:40 AM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm




thats what i call enlightenment without all the fancy trappings. thats the whole point of it isnt it? but it feels to me like you are connecting youth to enlightenment and saying we outgrow it.


Sounds like you have it figured out to me.


that still makes little sense to me. could you elaborate? maybe you were being sarcastic again. i cant tell.



posted on Dec, 15 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: TzarChasm




thats what i call enlightenment without all the fancy trappings. thats the whole point of it isnt it? but it feels to me like you are connecting youth to enlightenment and saying we outgrow it.


Sounds like you have it figured out to me.


that still makes little sense to me. could you elaborate? maybe you were being sarcastic again. i cant tell.


Something to defend sweetheart? Just teasing at you a bit no ill intended, as humor breaks tension. What would your response be if LesMisanthrope was being sincere?... Also, what would your response be, if LesMisanthrope was being sarcastic? One is an extreme of praise, and one is an extreme of insult... to be perfectly honest both are insults because they put you at one extreme or the other.

So when LesMisanthrope said: "Sounds like you have it figured out to me." this is an open ended statement leaving you to either draw your own conclusion. "Yes, LesMisanthrope is trying to validate my awakening I think I may have and have been trying at for awhile now!" or LesMisanthrope's saying "You, are daft and full of yourself, snap out of it and get a grip." Not knowing which extreme you feel you needed to ask. Well honestly, this is the trap if LesMisanthrope pats you firmly on the back with validation, your ego soars through the roof thinking it's special... that is, until someone else comes along and says you're bollocks. Once up a soaring and now crashing and burning. So for clarity's sake and conviction to not be made a fool the ego says what? I'd rather crash and burn now or make you crash and burn if I feel like defending myself.

That would all hinge upon if you think LesMisanthrope's reply would be stupid enough, that you could form a reply to come out on top with, gaining at least some self perceived victory.

Once again I must state my apologies, I do not mean to pick on you as a person. You have thoughts and feelings and it would be horrid if I slapped more of the same on your plate. It's just that your reply was a perfect example of the ego, trying to sort out whats what to defend itself if need be or lay tits up and enjoy the sunshine.

The ego has been in control since bursting the placental sac, and the true self it's shadow or conscious voice... "Oh hey, remember that time you touched a stove? Careful, darling.". So, that little small voice that people call the conscience... sound board the ego converses with for rationality and logical thought, becomes dominant when the ego is put in it's place. Instead of it being small and dragged about, now the ego is small and dragged about. In Zen writings, this is what they mean about dragging that corpse about. "Did you bring it with you?" "Yes, still dragging the corpse governor" The corpse is the ego, and now the conscience is full and unfettered at the helm instead. But it's not actually dead, just reduced by down to where it belonged, where the conscience that knows better once was, a still small voice lingering in the dark, to berate the conscience because it misses being in control.

Tis at that point, some people lose grip with reality. Wrestling Mara, Demons, Satan, whatever one wants to call it. The modern term to add too the cacophony would simply be put: Ego. As long as we are alive we cannot fully escape the animal/something more paradigm, but we can put one or the other in their place...

But honestly, this is just the yin/yang symbol spinning one trying to come out on top. Since one side is way out of balance for a long time in an extreme, it only see's one side of life's experience "Oh, what you are doing is an attack or praise on me!" and the other side out of balance says "Before you go too power hungry, tie your shoes so you don't trip." Since we are naturally in that extreme... it is important to try and bring back balance but flipping that whole system on end with "Oh, what you are doing is teaching me? Thank you for your kind words." The humbler side of things, the one that puts others first.

Still not the end though is it? The ego was on top, now the conscience is on top. Many people stop there, and let those two battle on and on. First self you were critical of others when ego was on top, and since I am no longer in power and on top I will instead be self critical and humble you in a fashion you cannot imagine... oh wait yes, what you imagine is exactly what I will attack you with. So the thing is always spinning always turning since you realized you've been burning.

So, the ego tramples conscience, gains wisdom... then the conscience tramples ego with holier than thou high horse. Back to square one same thing all over again... because, the self is at war with itself... so much, that it has leaked out into the world and warring with everything and anyone that does not make it happy in the name of ideals, standards, and practices... and hell, why not? You learned half the wisdom from being and egotistical bum, and the other half from the protector of this mind/body/conscious construct... so yay I am now 100% wise having experienced both.

Problem is, they both are still at war spinning round and round aren't they? And well the reason for that is really simple now isn't it?



posted on Dec, 15 2014 @ 10:54 PM
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a reply to: SystemResistor

The physical senses limit us in many ways. And Enlightenment is more of a peace and understanding. you see how we are all connected and how the things that cause dischord in our society are really trivial in the grand scheme of things. It's not a material thing or object that gets you through things, it's people and support. A hug thats given to a stranger because you can see they need one. Because you'd want one if you needed one. And we are all people and all deserving of compassion and each of us is just as important and special which makes none of us special and important. And to understand the universe is to accept it for all it's faults and to have compassion for your enemy. Hopefully one day they will understand. Enlightenment is to be beyond the things that limit us here.



posted on Dec, 16 2014 @ 04:54 PM
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a reply to: SystemResistor

the concept of enlightenment much like the ancient fish that grew legs is that you came to me dumber and sadder than you left me



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