I find the concept of Enlightenment problematic

You should read some of the folk on here.....

The Awakening Experience in the Modern Age

the-wanderling.com...

Some wonderful experiences.

a reply to: SystemResistor

From my point of view. If you have another view please tell me your experience and where our views differ.

Under the assumption that the bliss you are describing is a chi/light/kundalini flow going thru the body making the body into a higher energized state.

That the bliss it permanent and always felt is a simplification since when a person concentrate their mind much on other things the mind will not notice the bodily functions because it is to focused on other things and not notice the energy flow even if it is there in the background. When you sleep and dream the body will go into sleep paralysis and the flow is not there since it is connected to the body not the mind.

Even people who cannot sense the energy can flow it with for instance Reiki and Mediation (some feel it when the concentrate on flowing energy). You can prepare yourself so do not believe the hype about those who seek enlightenment will not find it. Those who do seek it will find if they really seek but they might have to give up much to reach it. But it is your journey and people who have had the experience can only give you pointers that would work for them.

Do not put En-lighten-ment on a pedestal if you mean chi/light/kundalini flowing. Even if it can give awareness that transforms the ego the kundalini flow do not mean you have automatically transformed the ego.

Nechash post shows another description of what enlightenment can mean where Nechash has transformed his ego and his transformation might in a way be harder than achieving chi/light/kundalini flow awareness from my point of view.

I really dislike the ambiguity of this words. Please create more words so that we can talk about spiritual things without failing into the language being a to blunt equipment to communicate causing miss understanding.

originally posted by: DrunkYogi
You should read some of the folk on here.....

The Awakening Experience in the Modern Age

the-wanderling.com...

Some wonderful experiences.

Loved the quotes.

"What Enlightened sages possess, rather, is access experientially to a higher spectrum of awareness, which, in turn, reveals not final or absolute truth, but a growing awareness of how truly mysterious life really is."

"I was criticizing every other teacher, like I was the only teacher on the face of the planet who was real. That's such a ridiculous posture. As time has gone on, I've become much more willing to just relax and acknowledge other people's strengths."

Namaste

originally posted by: ColeYounger
I also find the concept problematic. "Enlightenment" is a relative term. I've found it means different things to different people. I've seen people here state with conviction that they were enlightened, yet when I asked them for further description, they couldn't articulate. Often, they won't even reply.

I think when someone tells you they're enlightened, it's a pretty safe bet that they are not.

P.S. Be ready for a spate of replies from the various and sundry know-it-alls, masters, and self-proclaimed gurus.

I agree with you and get annoyed at the ambiguity of the word enlightenment.

I would rather use the word kundalini energized (if kundalini energized is what people mean by enlightenment) so that people can go beyond ambiguity. Or ego transformation when talking about seeing thru duality towards non duality (symbiotic oneness) while still experiencing duality separation.

originally posted by: jazz10
a reply to: Visitor2012
of
mind.......

nope.....wrong again
body soul and mind. 3
Tri
try again

Perhaps there's a language barrier here. But I don't understand your response. But even if you disagree with me, it is fine.

The seeker, is the illusion. So too is it's mind. Mind is thought. Thought is not as almighty as you've been lead to believe. In terms of the psychological mind, seeking and recognizing the truth, or the self or Brahman, the psychological mind is absolutely useless.

The self perceives all experience and all phenomena, perceives thought, mind and all sensory input, therefore it can not be any of these. All phenomena is ever changing. Mind is ever changing. But truth, the self is not. Enlightenment, liberation from the limited 'person' and it's conditioning, is the search for the everlasting and EVER present, that which we already are if we can only see though the veil of Maya, of mind, thought. One does not need to be a supreme being to accomplish this. We all have the capacity within us to see the obvious.

a reply to: taoistguy

The idea behind enlightenment is that you cease to incarnate into a body, and assumedly, you become a spirit. If there is no real difference between being in one form or another, then what wrong with remaining physical?

a reply to: JimNasium

I understand, to let go of all forms of conceptualisation, the issue here is, is that the doctrine of enlightenment is also a concept. If it were not written down for us to read, we would not have a name for what it was. If this is the case, then you are simply referring to a state of mind that can see beyond definitions and concepts.

a reply to: boncho

I guess it is your choice to remain in the land of the living, or to become a spiritual entity.

a reply to: LittleByLittle

It is a great web site isn't it LBL. They certainly make the awakening experience sound amazing. Plus, some of them had the experience without years of practice. It just seems to happen when it happens or as some might say, by the grace of God. It looks as though Krishnamurti was correct when he said the truth is a pathless land. It will happen to us all sooner or later.

originally posted by: DrunkYogi
a reply to: LittleByLittle

It is a great web site isn't it LBL. They certainly make the awakening experience sound amazing. Plus, some of them had the experience without years of practice. It just seems to happen when it happens or as some might say, by the grace of God. It looks as though Krishnamurti was correct when he said the truth is a pathless land. It will happen to us all sooner or later.

.

I have myself gone from totally non spiritual to some spiritual awareness so I can also say that people can change dramatically. It does not mean I know all but I have been thru one change where there are probably more to achieve higher awareness where the highest can probably not be reached while having the limitations of mind/a human brain to calculate with and a human body lacking sensors.

Most times I see myself as a dualistic part of the whole striving towards oneness/symbiosis with other parts. As a cell trying to connect to other cells in symbiosis with the cells that can handle symbiosis.

I think of higher awareness more like tools to experience more now days where you can test different tools out to see what happens. Astral projection is one of the tools I do not have yet and have not been able to master. Maybe one day I will know it.

I have met one person who came to my help when I was at my lowest and answered my call for help (telepathic distress call) so I know there are other souls here that are more advanced than me that have other abilities.

We are all evolving from one state to another and in a way there is not real hurry even if I want people to become as aware as possible since it would change the society we live in. I believe even a soul like Hitler will in the end understand it given enough time. I might not love the behavior of some people now. But I do love their potential to be amazing loving beings.

Namaste

a reply to: LittleByLittle

This stuff is worth checking out LBL. It is Philip K Dick and his Exegesis, it contains some stunning information. It also mentions Symbiosis.

2. The Mind lets in the light, then the dark, in interaction; so time is generated. At the end Mind awards victory to the light; time ceases and the Mind is complete.

23. The plasmate can crossbond with a human, creating what I call a homoplasmate. This annexes the mortal human permanently to the plasmate. We know this as the 'birth from above' or 'birth from the Spirit.' It was initiated by Christ, but the Empire destroyed all the homoplasmates before they could replicate.

25. As living information, the plasmate travels up the optic nerve of a human to the pineal body. It uses the human brain as a female host in which to replicate itself into its active form. This is an interspecies symbiosis. The Hermetic alchemists knew of it in theory from ancient texts, but could not duplicate it, since they could not locate the dormant, buried plasmate. Bruno suspected that the plasmate had been destroyed by the Empire; for hinting at this he was burned. 'The Empire never ended.'

www.tekgnostics.com...-T5

originally posted by: SystemResistor
a reply to: JimNasium

I understand, to let go of all forms of conceptualisation, the issue here is, is that the doctrine of enlightenment is also a concept. If it were not written down for us to read, we would not have a name for what it was. If this is the case, then you are simply referring to a state of mind that can see beyond definitions and concepts.

But where and when and in what and as what do all words and concepts arise?
Is not all that appears 'the light'?

The word Buddha means enlightenment. Buddha is not a person.
Liberation is FROM the person - the person and all things are found to be one. Wholeness, oneness does not have parts - although words arising make believe there is more than the one.

Seeing beyond concepts is seeing and hearing - even the words/concepts are seen and heard arising in and as the one.

originally posted by: SystemResistor

Firslty, what is wrong with reincarnating on Earth?

It would imply souls have always existed and are without a beginning or an end. Why would one body bring forth a new soul while another would not?

Now I believe the universe is without beginning or end but it creates new things which at some time cease to be either by choice or other circumstances. In this way a lifeless thing creates life over and over again which might go on beyond this life if the right choices are made during life.

a reply to: SystemResistor

All the people on ATS are "enlightened" and "awake', haven't you gotten the memo?

Yet we still can't get our collective, or individual, heads out of our ass.

The best of the best, so to speak, and we are still divided as ever.

a reply to: SystemResistor

If this is the case, then you are simply referring to a state of mind that can see beyond definitions and concepts.

A state of awareness which can see beyond the illusion of the person, persona, the individual and it's mind (thoughts) which contains the definitions and concepts.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle

I agree with you and get annoyed at the ambiguity of the word enlightenment.

I would rather use the word kundalini energized (if kundalini energized is what people mean by enlightenment) so that people can go beyond ambiguity. Or ego transformation when talking about seeing thru duality towards non duality (symbiotic oneness) while still experiencing duality separation.

I view 'kundlini rising' to be the same as thoughts arising. Both important branches, but neither is a 'goal' any more than breathing. They are both quite the trap..

I think there are explanations for why something seems to 'appear,' or be brought into creation by us, even though the only limitation was our sight. But they aren't particularly on topic.

I think the simplest explanation of enlightenment is that it isn't about what we think is currently there, or what will be experienced, but the ability to see, experience, and foster the growth in between the events we deem 'divine' or 'special' (like kundalini, obe, nde, precognition, etc.).

I feel the common perception of it being an endgoal are misled, and self-fulfilling. It is closer to a starting line than anything. Perhaps that baseline was what was lost after the whole 'apple episode' with Adam and Eve..

a reply to: Serdgiam

I feel the common perception of it being an endgoal are misled, and self-fulfilling. It is closer to a starting line than anything.

Waking up IS the end goal. What you describe seems more like mysticism, which for anyone seeking liberation is a similar kind of seeking, and continued suffering. It's the mind that wants to see enlightenment as a starting point of a journey. Enlightenment is always the ORIGIN point of ALL journeys. The starting point of all journeys. It's not at the end of them.

What Mysticism, however, is experience-chasing. The Maya, experience and the phenomena witnessed, including the sense of bliss and 'oneness' is impermanent and is the exact opposite of liberation.

a reply to: Visitor2012

I specifically made a point against experience-chasing. Actually, it was the whole point behind my post!

It is only an endgoal if you perceive you have not reached it, whatever 'it' might mean to you. This applies to many concepts. In my experience, that concept is, itself, one of the biggest stumbling blocks. If something is viewed as an endgoal, one is automatically chasing the dragon of experience. There is no such thing, only steps along a path/process. All are equally important or divine, and all are simultaneously end goals and starting lines. Which one is perceived is defined by that perceptions current point in space and time, as well as its 'mass.'

We aren't saying things too differently, really. I just view it as a baseline of experience rather than an endgoal. One that we lost sight of long ago.

a reply to: Serdgiam

The whole point of seeking is to find the ultimate. For many people, the ultimate discovery would be the self, liberation and end of suffering. Since you already are the self, and it's a matter of transcending mind and thought to recognize and abide in what already IS. For this, a path is not needed. This is the only concept of 'enlightenment' I refer to.

Paths that deal with energy work, kundalini and many other practices which generate phenomena, I feel has nothing to do with liberation. You can work with your energy until you can virtually feel yourself connected to the entire universe, yet you don't remain in this state. And when it's all said and done, the self is not discovered there and the question 'but who am I?' remains.

That's why I spoke against experience chasing, which is another word for mysticism, shamanism, OBE's, astral projection and channeling, all of which I have done for many years. Because ultimately, the self, which IS free, beyond form, WHOLE, pure, fresh, ever-present, un-changing and immortal, can not be discovered through these. Most seekers want to be mystics but only sages are liberated.

There's a story some where about a guy who spends his whole life knocking on a door. Waiting for it to open and let him in. When he's about to die, it finally opens and it's an opening to the outside. So I said, enlightenment is already at the starting point of all paths. Paradoxically, the most direct path, is a pathless one.

a reply to: SystemResistor


One man's 'trash' is another man's 'treasure'...

How do You feel, think, believe, know? It doesn't matter what We think, feel, believe and know and to ask 10 different folks is to receive 10 different replies/definitions, My point is it doesn't matter what We think, etc. You are The Creator in Your Universe, to wit: This is Your World, We are just in it...

And because a majority is based on 'intentions' I have the utmost confidence You'll find what it is You're looking for, but remember, along the way to Teach, Learn and Have Fun!!

namaste