Difficulty with the notion that we are mostly empty space.

a reply to: MrDesolate

That's fun, I could use that a lot. Just trying to keep you from getting hurt when you try to run through wooden walls. Nevermind, RUN!

a reply to: Words

The answer to your question lies in magnetism. Like forces repel and what is the polarity of the edge of an atom? Don't answer that, whether you are right or wrong, it's always the same and therefore repels any other item with that same polarity (but for the record the polarity is negative).

If atoms are 99.999999999999% empty space then why don't things pass right through them?

Things don't fall through other things because they are levitating on an electrostatic field! I am not kidding! When you sit on a chair, you are not really touching it. You see, every atom is surrounded by a shell of electrons. This electron cloud presents a rather negative face to the world. Remember that like charges repel each other. When two atoms approach each other, their electron shells push back at each other, despite the fact that each atom's net charge is 0. This is a very useful feature of nature. It makes our lives a lot easier.

Now the question you should be asking is, if atoms push away from each other, why doesn't the entire universe just blow away from itself? The answer is that some, actually most atoms' electron shells are not full. When two atoms come together and have empty spaces in their electron shells, they will share electrons to fill in the spaces in both of their shells. Yes, the electrons really do go back and forth between atoms and they do so pretty fast. Electrons tend to be kind of mobile, which is also a very nice feature of nature, since without it your walkman would not work. Once both atoms' outer shells are full due to this electron sharing, they go back to their usual repulsive behavior. This, by the way, is how we get molecules and the secret to understanding Chemistry. It's all about the electrons!

a reply to: Peeple

yes those words do exist. but in no way do you know how to apply them properly

trying to decipher your thoughts would take hours of explaining

reading is your friend when denying ignorance

or

see mrdesolates response

a reply to: Words

You know, math is a representative language of numbers/integers, which means, by definition, that they closely resemble, enough for analogies, matter enough to attempt understanding/control over matter by applying the concepts that way….as an analogy.

Like a symbol of something isn't the thing it symbolizes. It may have certain ties to it, sometimes attributed to it, but it's not IT. In fact, to not be it, and qualify as a symbol of it, instead, it (the symbol), by necessity, must have some differential qualities. That's a difficult concept of logic to wrap one's head around, but is, in fact, the definition we accept for "symbol."

a reply to: Another_Nut

No need to get mean: what Krazyshot, said. Sorry my unfounded ramblings insulted you. (Kicks a stone and leaves crying)

a reply to: Words

Is empty space in an atom contained within an atom by a magnetic field?

Electromagnetic forces between electrically charged particles (protons and electrons) keep them apart.

Neutrons are held with protons in the nucleus by another force, known as the strong force.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm going to piggyback off of this post with some more information. The reason we see color is because light of certain frequencies reflect off of electrons buzzing around the atom. Also, because the electrons are moving very rapidly, this makes the color appear to be solid throughout the orb of the atom. This is similar to looking at the spinning blades of a helicopter and it appearing to be a solid disc despite just being several skinny blades stuck out perpendicular to each other.

a reply to: Words

The entire human population of earth could be shrunk down to fit inside of an apple if all of the empty space was taken away, or so I hear. It is hard to conceptualize, but I guess Honey, I Shrunk the Kids isn't that strange of an idea if they could somehow maintain a condition which would allow atoms to orbit more densely without becoming unstable.

a reply to: Words

I am a layman too. I try to compare things to other things to see if they have similar characteristics. You have heard, "as above so below"?

You ask what keeps atoms apart? What keeps the stars apart? How come all matter doesn't just squash together from gravity? How come the moon goes around the Earth but doesn't fall into it? If gravity attracts then shouldn't everything just come together?

The moon stays apart from the earth because it is held in a balance between gravity that attracts it and the forward momentum that keeps it apart. The balance of the two keeps the moon in… orbit.

We can't see atoms but down there they have 'like' rules that govern… them.

Down there the atoms are as far apart as the stars are in space. The stuff going around them called electrons are like the planets. They have orbits, too.

On a scale so small that the they move so fast that to our "eye" they are … solid.

A person walks at three miles per hour. If we were the size of an ant we would walk 40 miles per hour.
If the size of an electron…

We live 70 years or more. Ants live several weeks. From their perspective they live a full lifetime just like we do.

Thinking on things as a matter of scale big things move slower the smaller things are the faster they move about and the speed at which electrons move about their nucleus (star) makes them appear solid to us.

The reason we don't understand this is the experts will say all those forces are different that act on Atoms and stars and thats why IMO they haven't come up with a grand unifying theory yet.

Like I said, I am just a layman, too.

So how does one catch Ebola from the surface of a table if nobody has actually touched the table?

a reply to: Astyanax

Electromagnetic forces between electrically charged particles (protons and electrons) keep them apart.

Neutrons are held with protons in the nucleus by another force, known as the strong force.

I somewhat understand the interaction between particles. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out based on the notion of "atoms are mostly empty space, therefor we are" is: is the empty space between the particles an actual property of the atom? If so, what force contains the empty space? Within what boundary is it contained. Or is the empty space merely the conceptual distance (radii) between these physical entities?

I understand the folly of using macroscopic analogies, but is the empty space between the planets a concrete or abstract property of the solar system? Is the solar system made of empty space? or is the solar system made of planets orbiting the sun?

Obviously I'm having difficulties with this idea.

a reply to: Words

A planet is a point

Electrons are fields

Imagine if Neptune existed At all points at its distance from the sun.

Not just it's orbit

But all points at that distance

Hope that helps

a reply to: Another_Nut

Thank you. That does help.

What I'm wondering about is not the electron (though I should probably look into it more), but the empty space, which is what chemists, physicists and woo-meisters alike (strangely) are saying we are made of. If you don't mind a few more questions when you get the time:

- If atoms are comprised of electrons, neutrons and protons, what exactly is the property "empty space"?
- If we are 99.999999% comprised of empty space, where is this space located?
- If the empty space is located within the atom, how is the empty space contained within the atom?

a reply to: Words

now u are getting into heavy topics

with no simple answers

but

for some simple answers

start here
jefferson labs q&a

then get ready for the rabbit hole that is quantum

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Another_Nut

No need to get mean: what Krazyshot, said. Sorry my unfounded ramblings insulted you. (Kicks a stone and leaves crying)

To be fair, you were kind of mean spirited yourself when you asked everyone posting before you if they were joking, only to then give a half @ssed explanation and a confession of your lacking knowledge, so the flak is certainly not coming out of nowhere..

I must say, it did feel kind of ironic reading your post as it went from mocking the ignoramuses to sounding like a pseudoscientist, it was as if deliberately satirical so I wouldn't necessarily react to it in a hostile way








Interesting thread, I think the answer is given, spread out among a few posters. There is no outer "wall" or boundary, as I often wondered myself. The best explanation would be to indeed think of the two opposing ends of two magnets, they push outwards and you can feel it, but you cant SEE any field or anything

If this is applied on an atomic scale, you get what appears to be a hard surface, or a boundary, or whatever you want to call it, but it is important to note you NEVER TOUCH THE NUCLEUS, this might make it easier to comprehend, as the "surface" is pretty much an overpowered magnetic shield/field that prevents you from reaching the nucleus and instead makes you hit a "barrier", which the "barrier" in your fingertips' atoms then hits and you feel the object (to make it all sound way simple which its obviously not!)

originally posted by: Words
a reply to: Another_Nut

Thank you. That does help.

What I'm wondering about is not the electron (though I should probably look into it more), but the empty space, which is what chemists, physicists and woo-meisters alike (strangely) are saying we are made of. If you don't mind a few more questions when you get the time:

- If atoms are comprised of electrons, neutrons and protons, what exactly is the property "empty space"?
- If we are 99.999999% comprised of empty space, where is this space located?
- If the empty space is located within the atom, how is the empty space contained within the atom?

You have to think more of this in terms of above so below


Please look up at the sky, the stars and the planets, entire galaxies, all held together by invisible forces at work

This is not a scientific explanation, rather an exercise in visualisation, as to me it sounds like this os part of the problem (since you ask where the space is located). My apologies if its not and this post is completely redundant!

The empty space as I understand is vacuum, pretty much what outer space is comprised of. The remaining 0,0000x is drifting around in there, around the core or nucleus

The empty space is not contained in anything. Due to the magnetic force (see previous post) it might appear as if there is anything to contain, but there's not, nor is there an outer physical barrier.

That site posted above looks pretty good for answers that are more thoroughly put together, I'm just adding my 2 cents.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Another_Nut

No need to get mean: what Krazyshot, said. Sorry my unfounded ramblings insulted you. (Kicks a stone and leaves crying)

im sorry if you took my replys as mean , in no way was that what was ment.

speaking as a one "urban camper" to another

the library is your friend. no pooping in strangers yards , no rain on your head, and lots of books to expand your thinking and ability to put things in their proper context

hope your camping is going well

originally posted by: Words
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

This is what I'm asking:

How can an atom contain 99.9999% empty space without a boundary in which to contain it?

As an analogy, does the orbit of Neptune create a physical boundary in which the space within it is contained?

You need to stop thinking in terms of solid shells, and more in terms of probability clouds. Imagine a spinning propeller.
When static, it is two or more solid metal steel blades. When rotating it appears as a transparent disk. That's simply because there's a probability that the blade is at a particular location at a particular time and you will see or encounter it.
If you look at the propeller side-on, you increase the probability that you will see the blades and it appears more solid.

Everything in the atom is essentially a singular point - proton, neutron, electron, quarks, but each has various nuclear forces of different orders; magnetic = inverse distance cubed, gravitational = inverse distance squared, weak/strong nuclear forces = inverse distance hexed (power of six and higher).

Then where each particle can be found is constrained by the interactions of these forces and the Pauli exclusion principle.
So where electrons can be found and those strange electron cloud shapes is a function of the various laws of physics.

I've always wondered whether the gravity around an atom is exclusively spherical or not more irregular close up.

I think that if one would decide to walk through a wall, the atomic bonds of the weakest material would snap, and you might get hurt.

Which is something you can see happening in the following video.



edit

Seeing anything is mostly a figment of your imagination, which has some truth in it.... Offered in the form of a secondary sense we call sight, filled in with mostly stuff your brain guesses there should be at that point in time.

a reply to: Sinter Klaas

Very good point, I tried touching upon this but you put it much better, star for you!


Zwarte piet (of beter roet piet? Haha)