There is a Difference between Muslims and Extremists

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by cstyle226

So while the Western people are easy to force into conformity, and easily give up their beliefs for safety, this will never happen with believers.

. . . I look forward to the future.

Funny, that's what Hitler thought. And Krushchev, too. And Tojo.

I suppose it is in the nature of idealists to believe that they are "better" than other people. Maybe it helps shore up your onw flagging version of national/ethnic/religious pride to believe that your own folks are tougher, meaner and smarter than those stupid lazy Americans.

You talk about defending your ideals, your interests; about not budging, no matter what the cost. Do you really think you have a corner on that market?

I'm sure you think Americans are all idiots, just like George Bush. Well, just like him, the American peopel are frequently "misunderestimated."

Lol....the difference is Islam is not totalitarian. All we want is independence from outside influences. You can't turn Islam into McWorld. And there is only belief in God. Nationalism and the rest mean nothing.

I'm sure you Americans are very tough on your ideals...just like when you give up your rights, and are becoming a police state thanks to 9/11. You changed instantly. Americans constantly say things like "the new reality," or "The world changed after 9/11," or the "Post September 11 world," and all that jive. This is the same world America, welcome.

You were safe on your land for a very, very long time, so you thought that all the things that your government was doing had no negative effect, so who cares...do what you want, and no one can stop you.

The only people being "misunderestimated" are the oppressed. 19 "cave-dwelling monkeys" slaughtered 3000 "heroes" in 1 hour. You think that Muslims (Arabs in particular, which I am not btw) have no idea what's going on, are just sitting in caves, chanting fervently, wishing to kill Americans: that's ridiculous.

America is being targeted for a very specific reason. And the ones doing the targeting cannot be stopped, because there numbers are great. America is being swarmed, and you'll catch most of them, but you won't get all of them. And you will eventually be defeated, because while your ideals may be nice, they don't match the reality of your actions.

It's not people (America for instance) that bother us...it's the actions. Actions have consequences. You either don't believe it, or don't want to.

But as the "misunderestimated" President Bush said, "We will never forget the lessons of September 11, 2001." You already have.

Not all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all Terrorists are muslim.
Every society has some sickos.

Here is an illustrative example in Canada:

www.canadafirst.net...

First you say:

Muslims aren't intolerant of others beliefs.

Then you say:

There is only one God, and there is one way to worship Him.

The second statement is INTOLERANCE

Israel has a right to that land? How about if the Native Americans went to the UN and demanded that the US give up the Western half of the US for them? You wouldn't do it. So, sorry Israel, no cigar.

The "Native Americans" lost the battles for their land. Despite this, however, we gave them reservations where they are free to live under their own laws.

You've made several references in this thread regarding Allah and Islam such as:

It is Allah's law, and the people are free to enjoy themselves under Allah's law.

And:

There is only one God, and there is one way to worship Him.

Yet in another thread you say: www.abovetopsecret.com...

And what religion are you Royalpar1?

I'll tell you, I do not believe in God, but I do believe in land, and justice. And the Israelis deserve no land, but they do deserve justice, which would be when they are sent fleeing from Jeruselam. .

You claim to support Bin Laden's views yet it is bin Laden and his ilk who view you as an apostate and who would have no reservations about killing you--if your last quote is true.

Or maybe you're just feeble-minded or perhaps simply confused given your slants toward anti-Americanism; yet you live in America and enjoy the liberties and benefits befitting of a citizen. You have an apparent identity crisis as you speak of Arab nations and Muslims as "we" and invoking graces to Allah; yet you say you don't believe in God.

Or perhaps your just child-like or maybe an agent provocateur attempting to incite hateful or violent expressions in thses threads. If this is your goal, you should at least be consistent.

I do believe in the All Mighty, period. That was my friend using my name to post. He is an athiest. But even if I didn't believe in God, I would agree with Bin Laden, because you don't have to be religious to get his message. Let's say you're secular: there still is no right for America to be in the Muslim countries with their military bases. In your arrogance, you demand this, so that is fine.

I think I'm pretty clear as to my feelings. You don't agree with them, and like I said, that's fine. Just don't be surprised when the next 9/11 happens in your hometown.

The fact is, the Sa'ud agreed to American bases in Arabia. It's not occupied territory.

If you have a problem, it's with another country, (Saudi Arabia) that feels it's neighbors are so dangerous it must turn to non-muslims for security.

The whole reason the coalition of '91 decided to leave Saddam in power in Iraq is because they DIDN'T want to be seen as land/oil grabbers. After 12 years, he was re-arming (the UN said so), and deporting weapons inspectors that he had agreed to as part of the original ceasefire of 1991.

Breaching terms of surrender means resumption of hostilities. America, England, Poland, Estonia et al have enforced the orignal terms of the ceasefire. It's not just that Saddam broke the treaty, but his government and army did. So they were removed.

Listen, cstyle. I don't expect you have any capability to change your opinions which are obviously core beliefs for you.

I am pointing out to you that many Americans have core beliefs that, while alien to your belief system, are just as embedded as your own.

This is what I have maintained for some time:

Islam and the Western Democracies (actually Islam and the rest of humanity) are on a collision course, and even their leaders are helpless to stop the hostilitiy.

The hope of terrorist supporters like yourself is to "train" the enemy. You hope that western actions will be so expensive in money and deaths that you hope to force people to change thier world-view.

And that is precisely was Israel and the West are doing to radical Islam. The reason that there has been a decline in bombings in Israel is because supporting terrorists makes life hard for neighborhoods that would rather feed themselves than die for a questionable religious stance.

Personally, I think the West (especially USA) is doing a better job on "the enemy" that radical Islam is. Just look at Iraq. Most of the fatalities are now Iraqi non-combatants. When a bomb kills 2 american soldiers, it wounds 12 Iraqis. Talk about counter-productive. And who has a job in Iraq? People building pipelines and manning police checkpoints, not terrorists who sleep in cellars during the day, and rob the locals after dark.

Why hasn't there been another 9-11? Because Bush has used the Patriot act to freeze accounts and immigration papers on anyone funding terror cells. And the fact is, the "moderate" muslims are more interested in the flow of moolah than in the will of Allah.

Where have most of the terror plots shifted to? England, Germany and France! Those countries are not as polarized as America is, and are unwilling to freeze foreign assets to the same extent USA does. Funny that Germany and France, who supported Saddam against the US, are now have more terror cells to deal with than ever before.

One of the lessons of politics that Fundamentalists like OBL have never learned is Reagan's #1: "Punish your enemies and reward your friends." But the insurgents in Iraq do the opposite. So do cells in France, Netherlands and Germany. Talk about drive neutrals into the enemy camp!

* * * * *

Ultimately, I think that Radical Islam will not be defeated by bullets. Instead, they are succumbing to the lure of Wall St., the lure of HBO and universities, and the fact that a woman is sexier in lingerie from Victoria's secret than she is when hiding inside a black sack.

The REAL reason Muslim hate the USA/West is because of its success. Unlike Christianity, Judaism, or Buddhism, Islam explains all failures in terms of "God's Wrath." So how come Yemen, probably the most carefully hadith-honoring society, has absolutely no oil; while the Sa'udi heretics are richer than midas. Worse yet, how come the capital of the Khalifa, Baghdad, is essentially a sprawling ghetto, while Las Vegas is one of the fastest growing economic areas on the planet, even outpacing Shanghai?

Islam has yet to develop a theology of suffering. Strangely enough, it has helped OTHER cultures to do so, but has never learned from them.

Mate i hope u aint british, IRA has done the most attacks on british soil

Originally posted by cstyle226
Let's say you're secular: there still is no right for America to be in the Muslim countries with their military bases. In your arrogance, you demand this, so that is fine.

We are there because we are invited to be there. We helped Saudi Arabia and other Arab nations develop their oil drilling capabilites--by their invitation. We were asked to liberate Kuwait in the first Gulf War and our soldiers were invited into Arab lands to accomplish that goal. The vast majority of Iraqi's are happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein; who posed a threat to the region. But the Iraqi's couldn't count on their Arab neighbors for support. What can they count on their Arab neighbors for? It seems islamists who have a penchant for death; whether they are killing themselves, other Muslims, or women or children. Why don't Arabs help each other? Why didn't they liberate Kuwait? Why didn't they remove Saddam hussein when he attacked his own people with chemical weapons? The Arabs, it seems, are a bunch of self-centered nations wrapped around the obvious limitations Islam imposes.



[edit on 17-12-2004 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by cstyle226
That was my friend using my name to post. He is an athiest.

Does your athiest friend know that you are duty-bound by the Qur'an to kill him (Surah 9:5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and
besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.)

Of course, you should be slayed as well for cavorting with a non-believer:

9;23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong doers.

Befriending an athiest makes you a hypocrite in the eyes of Allah and therefore: 73. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites ! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a
hapless journey's end.

68. Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It willsuffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment.

You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not surprised you chose to selectively quote Surah 9. It's the trademark of the ignorant.

I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you, because you won't change your mind.

You will learn the hard way.

Originally posted by cstyle226
You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not surprised you chose to selectively quote Surah 9. It's the trademark of the ignorant.

I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you, because you won't change your mind.

You will learn the hard way.

Trademark of the ignorant? Or perhaps the instructional guidelines so called "extremists" follow. I find it interesting that Islamic terrorists' actions seem to fall in line with what the Qur'an states.

What do you mean I will learn the hard way? Do you mean that there will be a day when "true Muslims" rise up to follow Surah 8;12:

When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fearinto the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

Yep; a true religion of peace. But only if you're Muslim.

[edit on 17-12-2004 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by cstyle226

I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you, because you won't change your mind.

Is it that you're not going to explain it or becuase you can't. The beliefs of so called "moderate" muslims who proclaim to be peaceful and accepting of others aren't supported by the Qur'an or the Shariah. BTW, anyone who sides with extremists' views, such as you have in this thread, are not moderate. I'm sure your well aware of the violent nature of your ideology toward those who "dis-believe" and therefore are unable to formulate an effective counter-point to my, and others, statements.

If your goal is to educate others about the peaceful, loving, and tolerant nature of Islam, why do you side with the views of "extremists"? You must know that by doing that you are effectively alienating yourself, and Islam from the majority of non-Muslims; and to be sure, "moderate" Muslims as well.

As I said in a previous thread, the world is getting smaller and there's no way the Arab Peninsula can remain isolated from other people, religions, or beliefs. North Korea is learning this the hard way and it is dying a slow death. If Islam is to survive, it must reform; or it will meet with certain death. Oil or no Oil.